Article: Michelle Kwan: The Kwaniacs Attack!

[Bijoux]

love, hate, indifference, Kwan still rules Media

Only Kwan can get a14 page thread at GS. I am a middle aged fan and can be frumpy - but no one and nothing in FS is worth the time that MKF-ers spend idolizing a human being.

I am really tired of sports fans that go beserk. As a part of Red Sox Nation geographically, i was hoping the White Sox would end their drought, as we did in 04.

Isn't this the sporting attitude which Kwanites should remember?

 

[R.D.]

Allow me to go off topic for a sec...

i was hoping the White Sox would end their drought, as we did in 04.

Not only this, but the Astros are ONE GAME away from the World Series, and they've still got another game in Houston!!

(Sorry, I'm excited right now.)

 

[R.D.]

I am really tired of sports fans that go beserk.

Well- with all due respect, isn't this what sports are all about?? Sports fans ARE supposed to go crazy! (Here's my bias: I don't include skating in this equation.) However, not to the point where they start causing harm to people or objects around them.

Now- as for skating, as far as I'm concerned the fans can get as rowdy as they want within reason. But the dynamics and culture in skating automatically rule out certain behaviors enjoyed by other sports fans (such as booing other skaters, etc.).

JMO.

 

[julietvalcouer]

However, I don't think it's unusual or wrong for certain non-fans (i.e. me ) to wish that someone else win every once in a while, just to see some diversity

*slips into the thread for a brief comment*

I can look at this from the perspective of someone who's been a fan of thoroughbred racing longer than figure skating (skating I've been a casual fan since I was 14 or so, racing since...age 8? I can't remember.) In racing, while we sometimes like to see the underdog/longshot win in a big race over the favorite (especially if they're at long odds and we have money on them) what we really crave at the top level is, well, a Michelle Kwan in racing. We want a horse who can win, win consistently, and stays at the top of their game. And the crowning glory for that horse would be a Triple Crown, and there hasn't been one of those in a long time. Since the year I was born, in fact. Obviously a horse only gets one shot at the Triple Crown (three-year-olds only), while Michelle can keep trying for an OGM until she really can't physically do it any more, but it's much the same--we want the constent winner to win the BIG PRIZE. I suspect, though I obviously can't be sure, that many Kwan fans would be fine with someone else winning other events, so long as Kwan finally got the OGM.

I can't swear to that--frankly Ladies' is my least-favorite discipline (I'd honestly rather watch Synchro, even) and I don't follow it as intensely as I do, say, dance (which I'm biased to because that's what I skate) so I am not a Kwaniac. Though I'll admit, I'd like to see her or Slutskaya win just becasue they're actually WOMEN, not teenagers with the bodies of prepubescent boys. At least Sasha's finally starting to fill out a little, even if she does look a bit ragged lately. I hope no one says a word to Emily Hughes--she looks normal next to Meissner and Whasserface the other America, as does the Canadian skater who was at Campbells' (who wuz robbed, btw, in her placement, but that's another thread).

 

[antmanb]

On contrary, I see most MK's fans are well educated, financially independent in a well successful society. Middle-aged?

Oh for goodness sake this statement is just as stupid as the orginal one made in the articel that M posted. You and who's crystal ball, since i doubt anyone has conducted research about Michelle and her fanbase i don't think a single person can say what type of person her fanbase is made up of! :sheesh:

Ant

 

[swannanoa54]

SusanBeth, I rarely tell anyone how to post or how to express their opinions. The way they express their opinions will sum them up in my eyes and my eyes only. And yes, I almost agree about the 95% garbage however I'd put it at 99.9 percent on all sides.

RD, you don't consider figure skating a sport because it's judged? So I suppose gymnastics isn't a sport to you either. It's judged as well. I just find it really strange that you have such a hard-on for Kwan fans. Not all of us are bad people nor do we express our opinions in such a way that we traumatize small children and animals. Nor do we act out our aggressions on fans of other skaters when their skaters do better than Kwan.

I have never been a nonfan of any figure skater. I like the majority of them. There are some I don't care to watch skate because they bore me, but I don't chant for them to fall or tear down signs of their fans or anything else. I do roll my eyes a lot when praises are sung loudly for a skater I find boring, but those are few and far between.

 

[Rgirl]

Oh for goodness sake this statement is just as stupid as the orginal one made in the articel that M posted. You and who's crystal ball, since i doubt anyone has conducted research about Michelle and her fanbase i don't think a single person can say what type of person her fanbase is made up of! :sheesh:

AMEN!

Rgirl

OFF-TOPIC P.S. Ant--Forgot to post you about your post about the pre-rotation inherent in 3sals. How right you are! When I was learning the sal--Sonja Henie was just 3 years old when she taught me--I thought it was just me who couldn't do the full rotations (I was lucky if I did a double once a year). Anyway, I thought that was a superb post, plus now people will have some ammo if other people start screaming, "That 3sal on that 3/3 was at least a quarter turn prerotated! Shouldn't count as a triple!" Well done.

 

[mzheng]

Oh for goodness sake this statement is just as stupid as the orginal one made in the articel that M posted. You and who's crystal ball, since i doubt anyone has conducted research about Michelle and her fanbase i don't think a single person can say what type of person her fanbase is made up of! :sheesh:

Ant

Well, it's just my opinion and based on what I read through the borads and net. If you ever read enough.......And I'd appreciate before you calling on my crystal ball, don't use your own crystall ball to judge how stupide I'm. You have no idea.

I believe there is statics shown the more educated ppl, the more fianatially success.

 

[antmanb]

Well, it's just my opinion and based on what I read through the borads and net. If you ever read enough.......And I'd appreciate before you calling on my crystal ball, don't use your own crystall ball to judge how stupide I'm. You have no idea.

I believe there is statics shown the more educated ppl, the more fianatially success.

I call you stupid because stating a fact about "the majority of michelle kwan fans" is just lunacy - have you met every kwan fan? No. By reading some figure skating boards do you get to a picture of the majority of kwan fans? No. It tells you precisley nothing except perhaps a little insight into the posters on a particlar board, and since most people do not write much personal stuff about themselves how on earth can you judge them? We've had plenty of dialgoue in this forum yet i doubt you can "deduce" anything about my personal circumstances, education or economic welath from these conversations.

Ant

 

[R.D.]

In response to the Kwanfan comment- Unless you put every single Kwan fan in the US in a room and survey them, there's no way of knowing the true demographic of her fan base. I'm pretty sure one might find that the age groups range all over the place. (you probably need one big **** room to fit them all in, too. )

(Real- You're right about me thinking gymnastics isn't a sport BTW.)

I just find it really strange that you have such a hard-on for Kwan fans. Not all of us are bad people nor do we express our opinions in such a way that we traumatize small children and animals. Nor do we act out our aggressions on fans of other skaters when their skaters do better than Kwan.

Once again- I'm NOT singling out ALL Kwan fans here when I talk about this issue. One of the tough things for us nonfans sometimes is being able to tell a real difference (online) between a genuine Kwan fan and a rabid one. I will admit it's easy to group everyone into one group once we are attacked by a select few. But I'm fully aware it's only a few bad apples making this group look bad. HOWEVER, this message isn't just for those fans.

The big issue here is bias- which is directly related to tolerance, that is, tolerance of other viewpoints. I know every skater has fans, but let me just focus on kwan fans here for simplicity. Now, EVERY Kwan fan has a bias, whether you want to admit to it or not. The stronger the Kwan fan you are, the more biased you're likely to be. Also, the harder it will be for you to tell the difference between a negative opinion and a bash. You can say how tolerant, understanding, etc. of a fan you are, but I think even the most tolerant Kwan fan will draw the line SOMEWHERE. And this line will most likely be drawn sooner by this fan then by a fan of another skater or a nonfan. I hope you understand what I'm getting at here.

 

[antmanb]

AMEN!

Rgirl

OFF-TOPIC P.S. Ant--Forgot to post you about your post about the pre-rotation inherent in 3sals. How right you are! When I was learning the sal--Sonja Henie was just 3 years old when she taught me--I thought it was just me who couldn't do the full rotations (I was lucky if I did a double once a year). Anyway, I thought that was a superb post, plus now people will have some ammo if other people start screaming, "That 3sal on that 3/3 was at least a quarter turn prerotated! Shouldn't count as a triple!" Well done.

Well my dream is one day to at least attempt double salchow...its my strongest single and the most likely one for me to land in the future sometime. Started working on the axel to no avail and then was off the ice for 6 weeks over the summer and have lost some of singles in the meantime...with any luck one day i'll be attempting axels and doubles!!

Ant

 

[mzheng]

I call you stupid because stating a fact about "the majority of michelle kwan fans" is just lunacy - have you met every kwan fan? No. By reading some figure skating boards do you get to a picture of the majority of kwan fans? No. It tells you precisley nothing except perhaps a little insight into the posters on a particlar board, and since most people do not write much personal stuff about themselves how on earth can you judge them? We've had plenty of dialgoue in this forum yet i doubt you can "deduce" anything about my personal circumstances, education or economic welath from these conversations.

Ant

I certainly can't deduce from your posts, since you are not talking so much of your personal stuf. But...

From what I deduced? I said in my first post, the way so a lot of MK fans have the means to attend different FS event where she appares. Some were following her to different competetions, to the point that the other side complained so much. At least they are finiantially well being to be able to afford attending several FS events.....there is statistics data shown for most population, the more educated ppl, the better fianantially off.........Call fellow poster stupid? Is this violate GS rule? .......:If you can't get other ppl's deduction doesn't mean they are stupid or should be called the stupid......frown2: :sheesh: You have no idea how "stupid" I am to be able to make a very good living in a foreign country!

 

[R.D.]

But mzheng are you taking into account all those Kwan fans out there who CAN'T afford to go to all (or any!) of her competitions, and even those who don't have cable? You're only talking about a certain group of Kwan fans I believe.

 

[mzheng]

But mzheng are you taking into account all those Kwan fans out there who CAN'T afford to go to all (or any!) of her competitions, and even those who don't have cable? You're only talking about a certain group of Kwan fans I believe.

I think you'd know, that number of MK fans so irited in those competetion to cause that iritation around the web, the number must be big enough. Maybe the most of total number of her fans is bit exagerated. But compare to the others still a big number....

Besides was the original compains about those "unhappy middle-aged frumps" aimed for those who atted the events? and according to Ant's the original complainers certainly can't deduce his/her conclude from the ones posted at certain board.

I hate it when ppl took the qoute of my post out of the contexts....read my original one (qoute and my comments), I know you don't have the time for it.

 

[swannanoa54]

The big issue here is bias- which is directly related to tolerance, that is, tolerance of other viewpoints. I know every skater has fans, but let me just focus on kwan fans here for simplicity. Now, EVERY Kwan fan has a bias, whether you want to admit to it or not. The stronger the Kwan fan you are, the more biased you're likely to be. Also, the harder it will be for you to tell the difference between a negative opinion and a bash. You can say how tolerant, understanding, etc. of a fan you are, but I think even the most tolerant Kwan fan will draw the line SOMEWHERE. And this line will most likely be drawn sooner by this fan then by a fan of another skater or a nonfan. I hope you understand what I'm getting at here.

And with that, you are painting all Kwan fans, even "the most tolerant Kwan fan", with the same brush. You are saying that we, as Kwan fans, will be less tolerant and more biased quicker than a "nonfan" or a fan of another skater. It might interest you to know that for some of us this is lacking in factual value. Some of us "Kwan fans" are actually Cohenites, Slutskayians, etc, besides Kwanatics/Kwaniacs (whatever the word for Kwan fans is these days). You are as fanatical and adamant in your nonfanism as SOME Kwan fans are in their fanism. I will be a fan of figure skating after Kwan retires just like I was before she ever showed up on the ice. It might interest you to know that the first time I saw Kwan, I really didn't care too much for her skating. It seemed like it was all jumps to me.

Regardless of what you think of those few Kwan fans who jump at every wrong word, written or spoken), you shouldn't paint all of us with that paintbrush. I didn't respond over at Mercury News because, quite frankly, I found nothing that off beat or wrong in what Ann Killian wrote. I found more negativity coming out of "nonfans" of Kwan than I did out of Kwan fans. And yes, I found negativity out of some of the more vocal Kwan fans. It bothers me that some people have to bombard a sports journalist at a newspaper who isn't nationally known over such a silly side comment. And side comment is what it was. What bothers me even more is that the anti-whatevers had to take the opportunity to insult Kwan fans and Kwan herself for no apparent reason. But that will happen no matter what a journalist writes about. It's always going to affect someone somewhere either positively or negatively.

 

[Tonichelle]

All right...

Is there a moderator who can delete this? I feel that this has gotten out of hand. Why aren't we discussing the new season? Now we're openly bashing one another!

if you find something offensive... report it through the proper channels and the mods will look into it...

 

[R.D.]

And with that, you are painting all Kwan fans, even "the most tolerant Kwan fan", with the same brush. You are saying that we, as Kwan fans, will be less tolerant and more biased quicker than a "nonfan" or a fan of another skater. It might interest you to know that for some of us this is lacking in factual value. Some of us "Kwan fans" are actually Cohenites, Slutskayians, etc, besides Kwanatics/Kwaniacs (whatever the word for Kwan fans is these days). You are as fanatical and adamant in your nonfanism as SOME Kwan fans are in their fanism. I will be a fan of figure skating after Kwan retires just like I was before she ever showed up on the ice. It might interest you to know that the first time I saw Kwan, I really didn't care too much for her skating. It seemed like it was all jumps to me.

Regardless of what you think of those few Kwan fans who jump at every wrong word, written or spoken), you shouldn't paint all of us with that paintbrush. I didn't respond over at Mercury News because, quite frankly, I found nothing that off beat or wrong in what Ann Killian wrote. I found more negativity coming out of "nonfans" of Kwan than I did out of Kwan fans. And yes, I found negativity out of some of the more vocal Kwan fans. It bothers me that some people have to bombard a sports journalist at a newspaper who isn't nationally known over such a silly side comment. And side comment is what it was. What bothers me even more is that the anti-whatevers had to take the opportunity to insult Kwan fans and Kwan herself for no apparent reason. But that will happen no matter what a journalist writes about. It's always going to affect someone somewhere either positively or negatively.

I understand your concern but I think you're missing the bigger picture. This goes for ALL fans. Notice I said up above that I am only going to use Kwan fans as an example.

The only reason I was assertive that I was a nonfan is that other people were quick to jump to conclusions that I was a (rabid) fan of Cohen, etc. THAT is the ONLY reason. I have since removed the "non-fan" title from my handle. That's beside the point, however- I don't think there is such thing as "non-fanism". You are either a fan of a skater, or you are not. It's that simple. There are varying degrees of "fanism" I suppose but if you aren't a fan, you aren't a fan. There are no varying feelings of indifference (at least I don't think there are).

I know some Kwan fans are also fans of other skaters. I also know FROM EXPERIENCE that there are lots of levelheaded kwan fans that would NOT attack someone for their viewpoint. That's understandable and totally expected. But I seriously think that my comments/theories apply to people who are fans of only one skater. Remember that there are tons and tons of fans and nonfans out there. But a few of those fans choose to attack some of us for our viewpoints. I don't appreciate that. I think that's put some of us "against" these Kwan fans. I'm sorry if I upset some people with what I've said. But I just simply want all this drama to end...

Here's to middle ground.

 

[swannanoa54]

With your last sentence "here's to middle ground", I agree. And there's all sorts of nonfanism as well as fanism. I mean if you can make up the word "nonfan", I can have my nonfanism . Ok, I'm just teasing here.

Anyhow, it would be nice if there was a middle ground. I invariably stand on the middle ground, or ride the proverbial fence, until some radical comes along and pushes me one too many times. And that can be any radical from a uber-skater fan to a uber-football fan to a uber-jacka**-for-no-reason fan. Then, AND ONLY THEN, does my tolerance sink below the zone of no return. That's the way it goes. And sometimes these "nonfans" relish pushing people's buttons by saying things that either they don't really mean/believe or they are just plain mean-spirited. And I don't mean constructive criticism-I mean downright negative-to-just-be-negative opinions. And they may be opinions, which we all have, but they are downright close to bashing. I won't argue with a negative opinion that has merit to it, IMO, nor will I rise to the bait of negative opinion just because someone is trying to "get my goat", so to speak. But you can only push me so many times until I fall off that fence or land outside that middle ground and I have to take a stand one way or the other. But, hey, that's just me!

Oh, I'm sorry you don't think gymnastics is a sport! LOL!!!!!

 

[R.D.]

sometimes these "nonfans" relish pushing people's buttons by saying things that either they don't really mean/believe or they are just plain mean-spirited. And I don't mean constructive criticism-I mean downright negative-to-just-be-negative opinions. And they may be opinions, which we all have, but they are downright close to bashing.

It all depends on where one draws the line as to what "bashing" is. From my experience it seems that different people have different ideas as to what this is.

I thought the word "nonfan" was in use already? Did I really make up that term?

Maybe certain comments "push people's buttons" as you say. But here's where the issue gets complicated. I think everything I've said in earlier posts comes together here. Should one respond to such a comment? How do you do so? Even if the comment DOES get under one's skin, does one challenge these comments or should one resort to poster bashing? I think decisions like these are what lead to all these fights. Should the other side simply refrain from stating "controversial" statements? I think one might argue that this stifles the use of free speech. What do other people think?

 

[BronzeisGolden]

The big issue here is bias- which is directly related to tolerance, that is, tolerance of other viewpoints. I know every skater has fans, but let me just focus on kwan fans here for simplicity. Now, EVERY Kwan fan has a bias, whether you want to admit to it or not. The stronger the Kwan fan you are, the more biased you're likely to be. Also, the harder it will be for you to tell the difference between a negative opinion and a bash. You can say how tolerant, understanding, etc. of a fan you are, but I think even the most tolerant Kwan fan will draw the line SOMEWHERE. And this line will most likely be drawn sooner by this fan then by a fan of another skater or a nonfan. I hope you understand what I'm getting at here.

Everyone is biased. "Non-fans" are biased as well. You have been berated by a few overzealous Kwan fans, thus, in a sense, you have developed a bias towards Kwan fans in general. So, naturally, your theory regarding Kwan fans would apply to you and how you view Kwan fans. Honestly, I think this thread has run its course. I have never felt uncomfortable or out of place on this board, but this thread is beginning to make me feel that way. Normally, I just wouldn't post....but I feel the issues raised here must be dealt with in a far better manner. I don't think it is even about the Kwan fan issue anymore. It seems to me that there are some ongoing personality conflicts (that may be sparked by Kwan-related issues, but honestly, are there regardless of Kwan or not). I think some people need to PM each other and work this out. It is carrying over to everything and creating uncomfortable situations for the entire community.
On another note: I hate to see rational, normal Kwan fans that I know well defending themselves. There is no reason for this. I certainly won't. My posting history and attitude speak well enough for me. I will not explain my Kwan fan status, and I don't think anyone else should have to feel that way either.