Article:"Rewarding Failure Diminishes Sport" | Page 7 | Golden Skate

Article:"Rewarding Failure Diminishes Sport"

When I say "casual fans", I mean:
2. They are "casual" because their knowledge in skating techniques is relatively "shallow, superficial, or not thorough". I, as a "casual fan", analyze skating results with "casual" inspection. I rarely comment or debate on the technical aspect of skating because I cannot tell a flip from a luz, a twizzle from a frizzle or bamboozle.

I never argue that a flawed element (e.g., hand-down, two-foot) should not receive a partial TES credit for its technical accomplishment. My concern has always been about its impact on PCS. Due to my lack of skating expertise, a "casual fan" like me trusts the calls of technical specialists and judges in the TES department.

And also the SS and TR components, as you mentioned later in the post?

So if all those technical details of the elements and skating content are enough to add up to a win, you don't question the win itself?

But,

However, when it comes to performance or artistic impression/presentation, I do have a voice.
...I have said it million times and I feel like I have to say it again: Doesn't a fall influence Performance and Interpretation to a certain degree? My argument about falls and other observable hiccups has always been about their influence on the 2nd mark (artistic impression), whether in this thread or others.

None of us have a voice in terms of affecting the results. Not even qualified experts not on the panel at that event have that kind of voice.

We can all have opinions and express them here at Golden Skate. And your opinion, shared by many, on this matter is that falls should affect the Performance/Execution and Interpretation components to some degree.

Let's say we all agree on that in principle.

So then the question becomes, to what degree?

Doesn't it depend on how disruptive each specific fall (or stumble) was to the overall effect of the program? Not all falls are equal.

There are three kinds of penalties for falls, two kinds for stumbles that do not meet the definition of a fall.

1) All falls that are determined to qualify as falls receive a 1-point deduction.

Maybe the fall deduction should differ for different disciplines and different levels, just as the PCS factors do. I.e., it would be higher for senior men than senior ladies or novice men. But in setting the value of what the fall deduction should be at this level for this discipline, consider that the scores for a long program might range from above 180 for the very very best skaters in the world on a good day to well under half that for a weak senior man on a bad day. Better to base the scale on an average value than on the outliers.

2) Falls on elements are penalized in GOE
(falls between elements don't get this penalty)
The point value of each negative GOE step is 1.0 for triple jumps. It's lower for lower-value elements, so that the grade of -3 subtracts enough points to take away a significant portion of the base value but still leave a positive remainder. However, that value might be less than 1 point, so after the fall deduction the net impact of a fall on a low-value element subtracts rather than adds points to the total score.
For quads and triple axels, though, the GOE steps right now are worth 1.0, same as triples. But the base values of these jumps are so high that after subtracting 3.0 and GOE and the fall deduction, a rotated quad with a fall still adds more to the total score than an easier triple jump. A few years ago they tried making the -GOE values for these jumps larger, so that -1 took off 1.5 points and -3 took off 4.5.
I think they should go back to those values. Successful or even nearly-successful quads would earn many points, as intended. But failed quads would earn fewer points.

3) Judges can lower any or all of the program components if they think the criteria for that component were negatively affected by the fall. The Performance/Execution component is the one that would most often be affected.

This is the area where fans who don't keep up on the nitty-gritty technical details can have meaningful opinions.
Perhaps, on the question of "How did the fall affect the overall effect of the performance?" people who are sitting back and watching the whole performance for its aesthetic impact can have a more meaningful opinion than people who are busy scrutinizing all the technical details and individual bullet points of the components.
Fans look at the forest -- judges may be too busy measuring the trees (and lots of other little plants that the fans don't even notice).

But it's the judges who have to give the scores.

And even among fans in the audience, or among judges on the panel, there will be differences of opinion about just how disruptive a given error was.

Often we react emotionally to errors because we were hoping so hard for success that the failure, and a 1-second break in a 240+-second program affects our enjoyment of the remaining performance.

Even a single flub at the end of an otherwise stellar performance can seriously let the wind out of our sails because it ruins the pleasure of what would have been perfection.

Or we feel glee if a skater we don't like and didn't want to win ruins his or her own chances, leaving an opening for our favorites. Etc.

Or a fall at the beginning is ignored or even embraced if it was on a new, high-risk element and the skater shakes it off and uses the disappointment of that failure to fire up an exciting recovery for the rest of the program.

Or the skater reacts to a fall (especially a silly one between elements) with such good humor and incorporates it into the flow of the program so well that we don't perceive it as a flaw.

The specifics of each particular fall can be different. Its effect on our emotional connection to the skater can be different, in part depending on our own emotional opinion about that skater before the fall occurred, so different fans will feel differently about the same fall.

Even if we had a separate panel of judges to look only at Performance/Execution, Choreography, and Interpretation, i.e., a panel of experts to sit back and focus on the forest, there's no guarantee that their opinions of how disruptive a given fall is would agree with each other or agree with our own.

So there isn't really a way to build in a hard and fast rule to require judges to penalize falls exactly as much as any given fan's opinion says each one should be penalized.

Making sure that there will always be some penalty for falling down (but not for other disruptive errors) is why the fall deduction was implemented. As mentioned above, maybe the size of the deduction should be scaled better to the average scores for each level and discipline.

But for the effect on P/E or other components, we still have to rely on judges to apply their own judgment in considering the disruption in relation to all the other good and bad aspects of that performance by those criteria.

All I can think to help would be writing in guidelines that judges should reduce the affected components by 0.25-0.5 per fall, or more for severe disruptions. That would be a reminder and a support for them to reflect falls in those scores, but it wouldn't force them to give a specific score -- we still have to rely on their expert judgment of the whole component.

There's certainly no way to require in advance that a fall or a specific number of falls will always cause the skater to lose a placement. That all depends on how the other skaters skate, and on all the little details in TES and the other PCS criteria that may or may not overshadow the cumulative penalties for a given fall.
 
Last edited:
That's the fatal error to some. Anyone who drops a ball is not supposed to win, and in Patrick Chan's case, not even in subsequent competitions, because he should have been publicly executed.

Nobody wants Chan to be executed. We just only want him to win competitions when he skates well. Ridiculous concept, for Chan fans but thats how some of us feel. When he skates like he skated at Worlds in Moscow or GPF last year, nobody will scream about Patrick winning. I don't even have issue with his win at this years Skate Canada (nobody was really great there). But where people take issue is when he puts in very flawed performances and others skate well, and the marks state differently.
 
Once again I get that Chan has great skating skills. Although I'd argue his musical interpertation is not as good as Dasiuke's.

Musical interpretation is certainly the least blade-related criterion (and therefore arguably the least important). The first criterion of the Interpretation component though is "Effortless Movements in Time to the Music" -- and effortlessness comes from control of the blades. It's not exactly about "interpreting," especially on an emotional level. So often the skaters with better control or better effortlessness end up scoring higher on this criterion than the skaters who get more emotionally involved but don't have the skating skills to support that involvement.

Anyway, looking just at these two top men of the current era, suppose a judge agrees with you that Daisuke is better than Chan at interpreting. (I also agree with you on this point, in general.)

The question is, how much better, and how much should that ?

Let's say we agree that Daisuke is exceptional at interpretation and merely very good at skating skills, and that Chan is exceptional at skating skills and merely very good at interpretation.

Do those evaluations balance each other out? So they end up tied on the sum of those two components? Or does one of them get a slight edge because of being extra exceptional on his best component, or a little better than just very good on the other one?

Emotional connection and interpretation are easy for nonexperts to appreciate. Falls or lack of falls are easy for nonexperts to appreciate. Therefore these might be the two most important criteria for those nonexperts. But they're only two out of about a hundred criteria that go into the actual decisions about results. Should these be privileged over, for example, quality of skating in a competition that is primarily about skating?

But does that mean that how Chan executes his elements shouldn't matter. Why even bother holding the competition if how Chan executes his elements matters NOTHING. Its not like Daisuke Takahashi is some slouch in the skating skills department himself. And one could argue he's the better performer.

If your going to argue that how one executes the elements doesn't matter, and lets be real that's exactly what the scoring system is saying. Why bother having the elements.

As others have pointed out, the elements do matter. Not just the number of glaring errors, but also the difficulty (base mark) and the balance of quality (positive and negative GOEs) across ALL the elements in the program. Focusing only on the blatant errors is closer to saying "elements don't matter" than scoring all the elements independently and penalizing all errors according to the rules.

If the results should be based primarily on emotional connection and interpretation and number of visible errors, then why bother having elements.
 
Musical interpretation is certainly the least blade-related criterion (and therefore arguably the least important). The first criterion of the Interpretation component though is "Effortless Movements in Time to the Music" -- and effortlessness comes from control of the blades. It's not exactly about "interpreting," especially on an emotional level. So often the skaters with better control or better effortlessness end up scoring higher on this criterion than the skaters who get more emotionally involved but don't have the skating skills to support that involvement.

Anyway, looking just at these two top men of the current era, suppose a judge agrees with you that Daisuke is better than Chan at interpreting. (I also agree with you on this point, in general.)

The question is, how much better, and how much should that ?

Let's say we agree that Daisuke is exceptional at interpretation and merely very good at skating skills, and that Chan is exceptional at skating skills and merely very good at interpretation.

Do those evaluations balance each other out? So they end up tied on the sum of those two components? Or does one of them get a slight edge because of being extra exceptional on his best component, or a little better than just very good on the other one?

Emotional connection and interpretation are easy for nonexperts to appreciate. Falls or lack of falls are easy for nonexperts to appreciate. Therefore these might be the two most important criteria for those nonexperts. But they're only two out of about a hundred criteria that go into the actual decisions about results. Should these be privileged over, for example, quality of skating in a competition that is primarily about skating?



As others have pointed out, the elements do matter. Not just the number of glaring errors, but also the difficulty (base mark) and the balance of quality (positive and negative GOEs) across ALL the elements in the program. Focusing only on the blatant errors is closer to saying "elements don't matter" than scoring all the elements independently and penalizing all errors according to the rules.

If the results should be based primarily on emotional connection and interpretation and number of visible errors, then why bother having elements.

How do the elements matter if how one executes the elements isn't important? Saying base value is ridiculous if base value is primarly based on elements the skater didn't show they could actually execute. It would be one thing if Patrick landed his two quads beautifully and then made three other jumping errors. I wouldn't like that Patrick did this but one could at least say "he did land 2 quads". But thats not exactly what happened, and thats what gets in people's craw.
 
Last edited:
And also the SS and TR components, as you mentioned later in the post?
Where did that come from? I said, "I don't think many people questioned Chan's SS and TR." It includes me. I'm fine with his SS and TR scores.

So if all those technical details of the elements and skating content are enough to add up to a win, you don't question the win itself?
Why should I? In fact, I think (or propose) that GOE should reflect only the technical aspect. The -3 GOE for Chan's bumping into the board is too harsh for that minor technical error.

None of us have a voice in terms of affecting the results. Not even qualified experts not on the panel at that event have that kind of voice.
Of course I didn't mean "power" of affecting the results. I meant the capacity of opening one's mouth and making some grumbling noise. Gee, am I taking a TOFEL or GRE test here? I don't blame you. Even my professors at a US university felt embarrassed when they handed me an advanced degree in English. They told me it was unusual to give out such a degree to someone who couldn't speak or write English well. They really told me that. And I have thenceforth been living in the shadow of my hurt self-esteem. :cry:
 
Last edited:
But where people take issue is when he puts in very flawed performances and others skate well, and the marks state differently.

No matter that he does more?

Let's look at it this way. Jump revolutions are all important and count for a lot in figure skating, right? An additional revolution to any jump, sort of like adding balls to juggling, merits unproportionately much higher number of points. And each additional revolution takes much energy from the skater, both physically and mentally, affecting the rest of the program. Well, in the GPF LPs, Chan did 34 revolutions and Takahashi 32. And Takahashi did a level 2 spin when Chan did a level 3. When everything is counted, there is an outrage worthy difference of a point to Chan's favor.
 
No matter that he does more?

Let's look at it this way. Jump revolutions are all important and count for a lot in figure skating, right? An additional revolution to any jump, sort of like adding balls to juggling, merits unproportionately much higher number of points. And each additional revolution takes much energy from the skater, both physically and mentally, affecting the rest of the program. Well, in the GPF LPs, Chan did 34 revolutions and Takahashi 32. And Takahashi did a level 2 spin when Chan did a level 3. When everything is counted, there is an outrage worthy difference of a point to Chan's favor.

But the most difficult part is actually controlling the jump, and landing it. That's the part that actually has to do with skating.
 

But the most difficult part is actually controlling the jump, and landing it. That's the part that actually has to do with skating.

That is why he recieve negative goe on both those elements. He rotated both jumps and landed both jumps on one blade, yes he couldn't control the landing and he was punish by not getting the full value of those jumps. He did recieve negative goe. This seem more about a personal perception than what chan actually performed and what the judges did.
 
Is it correct under CoP to give a skater 9's for P/E when he had many visible errors in his jumps? Or is it just me who think that a skater who fell shouldn't get 9's for Performance and EXECUTION? I think the judges should give Patrick 8s and 9s for SS, T, CH and I because they are all first rate even when he falls but his P/E mark should be lowerd when he makes three visible mistakes on his jumps, oen of them being huge crash, to 7's. This would give a chance for clean/almost clean Takahashi to win if Patrick makes mistakes on his jumps (and he usually makes a lot of them).

So far this season, Takahashi is the only one who has received a 9.00 in Performance/Execution with a fall.
 
How do the elements matter if how one executes the elements isn't important? Saying base value is ridiculous if base value is primarly based on elements the skater didn't show they could actually execute. It would be one thing if Patrick landed his two quads beautifully and then made three other jumping errors. I wouldn't like that Patrick did this but one could at least say "he did land 2 quads". But thats not exactly what happened, and thats what gets in people's craw.

ALL the elements matter -- not just the elements with visible mistakes.

Suppose skater A does 10 elements very well with extra points from positive GOE, and 3 elements with medium to serious flaws that are penalized appropriately.

Skater B does a slightly easier set of elements of which 9 are very good with extra points, 3 are just OK with few extra points, and 1 that is seriously flawed and penalized appropriately.

Add up the scores for ALL those elements and skater A can come out slightly ahead on TES.

Insisting that only the execution of the elements with serious flaws should count means ignoring most of the elements.
 
As far as mistakes on technical elements isn't that already accounted for in tes, would we be punishing the skater twice if it affects Pc's. Double jeopordy.
 
Emotional connection and interpretation are easy for nonexperts to appreciate. Falls or lack of falls are easy for nonexperts to appreciate. Therefore these might be the two most important criteria for those nonexperts. But they're only two out of about a hundred criteria that go into the actual decisions about results. Should these be privileged over, for example, quality of skating in a competition that is primarily about skating?

Let's do a rough calculation: two out of one hundred = 2/100 = 2%
Chan's long program score (before deduction) = 173.67 + 1 = 174.67
174.67 × 2% = 3.49
Hm, 3.49 seems a reasonable deduction for the impact of his fall on PCS.
His adjusted LP score would have been 174.67 - 3.49 = 171.18 < Dai's 172.63.
Good point.
 
The truth of the matter is that a fall is just a mistake,just like step outs, hand downs, wrong edges, popped jumps, doubled, singled jumps, two footed, touch down , wobbly landing, under rotation, over rotation, off axis rotation, traveling spins, failure to hold position for three revolution, flat edges, etc

In my opinion a fall is qualitatively different from the other errors that you list. A baby just learning to skate, if he can manage to snowplow his way to the boards without falling down, that is a successful on-ice adventure.

Even at the top level, in the olden days a skater might teeter and totter and swing his legs and arms wildly about, but if he could "save the landing," then yay, good for him - at least he didn't fall.

Its the very kernel of the soul of the essence of skating -- keep the shiny side down. :cool:
 
Awww, I made Mathman cry.

For levity, let me tell you what else a casual fan notices. My casual fan friend who watched the Men LP only up to the warm-up, commented when Fernandez moved across the screen, "He's got big buns for a white guy." I said, "They all do. Those are skaters' buns, like dancers'."
 
I did not read the post before the link to the picture so I was wondering why it was posted? Then I saw the flag on his boot so maybe it had something to do with that! LOL
 
I did not read the post before the link to the picture so I was wondering why it was posted? Then I saw the flag on his boot so maybe it had something to do with that! LOL

You are just too blassé to notice what a casual fan does.
 
Back
Top