Article:"Rewarding Failure Diminishes Sport"

[wallylutz]

Whatever. I could care less about base value most of that base value was do to things he didn't do correctly. If this continues more people will stop watching the sport.

Not sure whom you are aiming these threats at, bekalc, but it's getting really old. Maybe you should send those to Cinquanta and see what he says because it's kind of pointless to keep beating the same dead argument over and over that you repeat whenever you have a chance. The rules are the rules, hardly anyone can say they agree with them 100% or even close. Your position is that if things don't go the way I, bekalc, see it, then this sport will eventually die.

What you dismiss with a single stroke is in fact quite significant. And this: "most of that base value was do to things he didn't do correctly" Not only that's false, why don't you do some math before you speak? His total base value was over 80, the three elements which he had error had total BV around 29. You called that "most of that base value"? Why are you so keen to spread falsehood like this? Also, if it were so easy, why didn't Takahashi do two Triple-Triple, eh? Why didn't he add a Double Axel into his program? Because he can't. He got no room and he doesn't know how to a 3-3 except using a 3T, which he already did. Even if Chan's 3Lz got a score of zero, he would still have won by a mile. But if he didn't fall (e.g. simply omit the 2nd 3Lz) and merely had one more step out than Takahashi on the Quad, I am willing to guess that many of his critics would be a lot quieter but it doesn't make any sense. Clinging on the fall as the sole reason to put Chan down is a red herring at best because it ignores several other technical contents that was in fact executed cleanly and superior to Takahashi as listed above already. Just go ahead and readjust the FS score as you please, give zero that Lutz and give him -4 for mandatory deductions instead of -1 and he still would have won. This shows just how pointless the complaint on that fall is given such gap from the SP already.

 

[Mathman]

Should this new category be included in the Personal Components Scores?

Since I can't top that, i will reach back and respond to this earlier post (addressed to gkelly).

The idea that Mathman et al are promoting is that the sport/entertainment is weakened because it is unable to appeal to the casual fan. My question is how can you create a system such that the fan can enjoy it while not disrespecting the sport/athletes itself. People say common sense, but at the same time run rougshod over the details.

First, let me apologize for being so testy the last couple of days. :

You have exactly stated my position/predicament. I think there is a problem. I do not have a solution, detailed or otherwise. If I had a solution I would start up my own skating competition tour. (Our motto: "You want triple Axels? We got triple Axels! You want short skirts? We got short skirts!")

 

[Poodlepal]

My question is, how did these other guys get to where they are if their skating skills are so mediocre? And what exactly are they graded on? Do they actually record their speeds? The angle of their edges? (I asked this once before, but forgot what thread it was on, so I never learned the answer, LOL). Or do they just go, aha, Patrick is 2.4 points higher than Daisuke and 3.5 points higher than whomever (I'm making these numbers up to set an example)

It sounds like it's pretty subjective, and by giving one person so many more points than anyone else, it sets up someone to be unbeatable. And people aren't gonna watch a "competition" when the results are determined beforehand.

Maybe they should rank some of the program component scores, sort of like they did under 6.0. The skater with the best skills gets 10.0, the second best gets 9.5 or whatever. That way if the skater with the best components will get the advantage he or she deserves, but there won't be such a huge cushion so that it doesn't matter if he/she falls several times or not. How would they know ahead of time who has the best skills? They can sort of figure it out as best they can from practices and so on, I guess. It's not ideal, but it may be more fair than how it's going now.

I think a couple of tweaks in the COP would fix the problem fairly easily.

 

[gkelly]

My question is, how did these other guys get to where they are if their skating skills are so mediocre?

Who said they're mediocre?

According to the original ISU program component documentation, 5 is average, 6 is above average, 7 is good, 8 is very good, 9 is superior, 10 is outstanding.

So if these guys are getting scores in the 7s or 8s, that's much better than mediocre and much better than almost all the skaters in the world.
They just have the bad luck to be competing against a guy who is exceptional in terms of skating skills and what that allows him to do in terms of transitions and choreography . . . and pretty darn good at performance and interpretation as well.

Personally, I do think that Takahashi is usually superior to the rest of the field in interpretation, but often not by enough to make the difference against the areas where Chan is superior. And Interpretation is easily the most subjective of the components, as well as the one most subject to variation from one performance to another.

And what exactly are they graded on? Do they actually record their speeds? The angle of their edges? (I asked this once before, but forgot what thread it was on, so I never learned the answer, LOL).

You can find the list of criteria in the document I linked above, and the more in-depth explanations here.

So yes, things like speed and angle of edges are explicitly taken into account in the skating skills score and also affect the perception of quality on elements and transitions and performance. But as of now, as always since the beginning of skating competitions, these qualities are evaluated by the human eye. Judges are trained to pay attention to these things and are very familiar with them, so they'll be a lot more accurate than the average viewer in noting the differences. But they're still human and fallible in their perceptions and in the way they each translate those analog perceptions into digital scores.

Someday technology may be available to measure these things accurately and objectively for a feasible cost, but at the moment that is not the case and I don't see it becoming so within, say, the next decade.

Or do they just go, aha, Patrick is 2.4 points higher than Daisuke and 3.5 points higher than whomever (I'm making these numbers up to set an example)

What they're supposed to do is have an image in mind of what their standards are for 10, 9, 8, 7, etc., for each component. And to score each skater against that mental standard, with increments of 0.25 if they think a performance was better than 8 but not good enough for 9, for example.

The actual scores that appear in the summary results are averages of all the judges, which is why you get PCS with decimal places other than .00, .25, .5, or .75 after averaging. The individual judges only have those marks to work with.

Maybe they should rank some of the program component scores, sort of like they did under 6.0. The skater with the best skills gets 10.0, the second best gets 9.5 or whatever. That way if the skater with the best components will get the advantage he or she deserves, but there won't be such a huge cushion so that it doesn't matter if he/she falls several times or not.

Huh. I had no idea how to mix ordinals and absolute technical scores before this post. This suggests one option.

You mean rank the skaters on each component and assign point values to each ranking, to be added to the technical scores? I guess judges could use whatever kind of numbers they want to keep track during the competition, same as they did under 6.0. At the end of the competition the rankings would be finalized and the skater in first on PCS could get the maximum point value to be added to his or her TES, the skater in second would get the next highest points, etc.

But should the number of points assigned to first rank, second rank, etc., always start at 10 and always go down by 0.5 increments? That wouldn't work for a competition with more than 20 skaters. And it would have a very different impact on competitions where the highest TES might be 90 points than in competitions where the highest TES is more like 20 points.

And if you're waiting to figure out the combined standings based on individual judges' rankings of all the skaters, then all results announced in the K&C after each skate would be provisional and there would be possibility for flipflops as the mix of ordinals changes with subsequent skaters. Less so than with the straight ordinal system, but it would always be a possibility.

I don't think this would be an improvement over the existing system. I'm just trying to figure out how it could work at all.

How would they know ahead of time who has the best skills? They can sort of figure it out as best they can from practices and so on, I guess. It's not ideal, but it may be more fair than how it's going now.

They're not supposed to know ahead of time who has the best skills. They're supposed to score the skills that are demonstrated during the actual competition. . . . All the skills, not just the ones that bek thinks are important.

 

[skateluvr]

Always reserving the right to be wrong , I think the consensus is something like this. The long program could have gone either way. Some people are frustrated with Chan’s errors and think his program component scores are too high for a performance that was far from his best. Many people thought Takahashi’s performance was a delight and would give him the nod on the basis of the emotional satisfaction that his program brings. If Daisuke had landed his quad cleanly I think he would have won the LP.

The other view is that, in sober reality, Chan’s remarkable blade-to-ice skills, not to mention two quads, are just what the CoP is designed to reward. Chan is going to score a bunch of points no matter what because he does all the things that the CoP gives out points for. You can’t out-CoP Patrick Chan. That’s just the way it is, whether you are from Canada or Timbuktu.

But of course Canadian skating fans in general love their Patrick, just like Korean fans are enthusiastic about Yu-na Kim. Why wouldn’t they be? :yes:

Most people watching in the comp thread were not in agreement with the judging in the LP.

So, skating skills are most rewarded. I can see blade to ice skills "soberly." Patrick and Dai are evenly matched. Patrick has more speed but makes more mistakes. It appears the judges prefer Chan's pure boy next door style and speed over the more sophisticated, jazzy, avant garde Daisuke. Patrick is great. He just never does a clean program and he gets the big scores.

Everyone watching was most impressed with Dai, Javier and Hanyu because of great skating with i minor eror in each skate. Patrick's falls/ mistakes on his jumps don't ruin the program, but it is consistently overscored. I have no geographical current favorites. Dai should have one the LP.

It is totally weird to hear Kurt say that the judges are more interested in seeing if he rotated his triple before crashing into the boards and fell.

Ice dancers can beat any top guy with blade to ice. Maybe we should leave the 1 foot skating and twizzles in ice dance and return mens skating to perfecting jumps first, then worry about footwork/ transitions.

I agree with Plushenko on what men's single skating should be. I would rather see perfected quads, triple axels, combinations in mens skating, I'm glad CoP made changes to increase the quality of transitions, footwork sequences, but they need to reward clean skating, good jumps that are done cleanly, not give points for failed attempts. There is too much emphasis on footwork sequences. I am sure something simpler must become IJS because most fans do not understand it and will not spend time studying scores. There are casual fans on this board (I'm one) and FS junkies who know every score and love to debate the math. I watch to enjoy the total skate at this point. I agree with a lot of what Janet Lynn said. I can see Patrick is on any given day, capable of being the best skater in the world. As World Champion, you get held up. Did he really deserve the 10 points lead in the SP?

I don't feel he won the freeskate. But he did. The judging was wrong or the CoP is funky and not right. Dai is not my pet. I personally feel he is the most mature, interesting artist out there and also jumps very well. He should have won the freeskate. Rewarding Patrick for sloppy skating this season isn't going to help him skate clean. We saw MK beat Sasha time after time as Sasha's falls rightfully affected the program. Under CoP Sahsa would have won more because evrything else she did, every element was spectacular compared to MK. I hope they fix this jump scoring thing, and that all other marks go down as jump mistakes do affect the total program. I'd like the scores to reflect that.

Exactly how much was Patrick penalized and in what categories for crashing and falling in the sp? Thanks for your answer.

 

[fscric]

Exactly how much was Patrick penalized and in what categories for crashing and falling? Thanks for your answer.

I've seen many posts explaining this but if you chose to stay away from those posts, there's nothing they could do to make you understand.

As for MK and SC, you really have a strange way to show you're a fan of MK.

 

[skateluvr]

Well, why not just answer Frisic. And one can be a fan of two skaters at the same time...or even 3? You might try looking beyond your favorite. I am just noting that Sasha always lost when she fell, despite spectacular, unique elements much copied. Having an MK avatar does not mean I think no one else was spectacular. I asked a question, and perhaps someone not as condescending as you will answer it. I am not going to read every post. I have a life.

 

[fscric]

Most of MK and SC were done under 6.0 system not CoP, you should know that if not for CoP, Sasha most probably would not be where she was in the 2006 Olympic Games.

I don't know where was I condescending, I was just surprised that you're still asking the question of about Patrick's SP when there are many posts explaining that.

 

[gkelly]

Most people watching in the comp thread were not in agreement with the judging in the LP.

They were watching on TV or on their computers?

I watched on TV too, so I consider my own impressions to be less valuable than those in the arena, up close with lots of experience evaluating skating. A lot of the things Chan does best are better appreciated live than on video.

Without having been there, I wouldn't say that a given result was right or wrong. At best, that based on what I could see with the limitations of the means by which I was seeing it, X is the way I would have called it.

So, skating skills are most rewarded. I can see blade to ice skills "soberly." Patrick and Dai are evenly matched. Patrick has more speed but makes more mistakes.

It's more than just speed. Also depth of edge, knee action and depth of knee bend, quality of the run of the blade, amount of one-foot skating, amount of multidirectional skating, etc. (For the latter, that might also include the kinds of turns the skater uses to transition between forward and backward skating, as well as how much time they spend traveling or turning clockwise vs. counterclockwise.) In some of those areas Chan and Takahashi are comparable, in others Chan is clearly superior. So if you add up all the ways in which they are each better than average, which are many for both of them but more for Chan, and then subtract a little for mistakes related to skating skills, it's still possible for the skater who made more visible mistakes still to come out ahead on skating skills.

Ice dancers can beat any top guy with blade to ice.

The top ice dancers, yeah. But not the average ice dancers.

Maybe we should leave the 1 foot skating and twizzles in ice dance and return mens skating to perfecting jumps first, then worry about footwork/ transitions.

Why? If you want to "return" to basics, then the basics are one-foot skating before jumps. Always have been, always will be.
I hate the cliche phrase "it's figure skating, not figure jumping," but sometimes that point just needs to be made.
Figure skating is about skating first, jumping second. Even men's singles skating. That's the nature of the sport.

I am sure something simpler must become IJS because most fans do not understand it and will not spend time studying scores. There are casual fans on this board (I'm one) and FS junkies who know every score and love to debate the math. I watch to enjoy the total skate at this point.

So enjoy it. And if your favorite doesn't win, put that down to the sport valuing other things than what you value most. That doesn't make your enjoyment any less real to you. Just don't rely on the results to validate it.

Exactly how much was Patrick penalized and in what categories for crashing and falling in the sp? Thanks for your answer.

For the fall on the end of the 4T+3T in the short program, he lost 2.29 points in GOE and also got a 1.00 fall deduction.

For the hand down on the 3A he lost 1.00.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf1112/gpf1112_Men_SP_Scores.pdf

 

[skateluvr]

As a Kwan fan, I wish her two Olympic skates were judged under CoP in which case she might have been two-time Olympic champion already.

Maybe Lyra but certainly not in 2002. And likely not at Nagano either given the scores Tara would have garnered with her jumps, her GOE's -much as i like MK, She was strongly out skated twice. Still, for me Lyra Angelica is one of the most beautiful programs ever skated. Liking MK does not mean i could not appreciate what Tara pulled off. Maybe Sarah would have been dinged for edge calls, or URs I don't know, but she did so much more than MK in her LP. I am sure Tara would have won under CoP. People who love MK never give Tara her due.

 

[Mathman]

[Exactly how much was Patrick penalized and in what categories for crashing and falling in the sp? Thanks for your answer.

Looking at the judges' protocols, it looks like he lost about 5.29 points on the element itself. That counts the -2.29 compared to the +2 GOE that he would have gotten if he hadn't fallen, and the -1,00 fall deduction.

It also appears that he lost about .5 points across the board in program component scores. None of his PCSs were in the 9's as they usually are for a clean program, and the only other flaw in his program was the hand down on the triple Axel. So that's about 2.5 more points attributable to the two errors.

So, as a ballpark figure, it looks like Patrick lost about 9 points for the fall together with the hand down.

It is totally weird to hear Kurt say that the judges are more interested in seeing if he rotated his triple before crashing into the boards and fell.

I totally agree. Um..guys, he's picking splinters from the boards out of his backside, and you're measuring whether he rotated 989 degrees or 991 degrees?

 

[Violet Bliss]

I totally agree. Um..guys, he's picking splinters from the boards out of his backside, and you're measuring whether he rotated 989 degrees or 991 degrees?

Kurt's comment was educational, letting people know rotations count, as he later expounded that falling after full rotations was worth more than popping jumps. Agree or not with the scoring rules, that's the fact of how TES are derived. Kurt does his job to help casual fans understand today's figute skating.

That was a bad crash and fall by Patrick, but it happened after he landed so the impact was less severe both on his body and his scores.

eta. He rotated at least 1080 degrees right before the crash.

 

[Mathman]

Maybe Lyra but certainly not in 2002.

It's impossible to say. In CoP judging Sarah would have been so far behind the leaders after the short program that she might not have been able to make up the difference. On the other hand, Irina probably would have won the short program.

Remember that in the actual event, Michelle did not have to beat Sarah in the long program, she just needed to place ahead of Irina in second. But once Michelle fell, her goose was cooked.

Under CoP, as we know , falls are not penalized so heavily. Even so, I think Slutskaya would have won overall under CoP.

eta. He rotated at least 1080 degrees right before the jump.

I think you mean 1440 degrees.

 

[Violet Bliss]

I think you mean 1440 degrees.

No, 1080. Or 2520 degrees if you count the whole combo.

eta. Now I see how it was confusing because I typed "right before the jump" instead of "before the crash" as I meant to. I edited the original post.

 

[Mathman]

Kurt's comment was educational, letting people know rotations count, as he later expounded that falling after full rotations was worth more than popping jumps. Agree or not with the scoring rules, that's the fact of how TES are derived. Kurt does his job to help casual fans understand today's figute skating.

But he could have said it with a little twinkle in his eye to let the viewers know that he knew how foolish he was sounding.

 

[gmyers]

the fact that irina slutskaya did the most triple lutzes without a fall probably would have meant more

You are just too blassé to notice what a casual fan does.

LOL

 

[Violet Bliss]

But he could have said it with a little twinkle in his eye to let the viewers know that he knew how foolish he was sounding.

He has that twinkle in his eyes when he is right too.

He didn't sound as stupid as the anti-COP crusaders masquerading as skating commentators.

 

[skateluvr]

Thank you gkelley, it was not answered previously as I have been scanning the thread. Do you, who clearly understands the CoP feel that is appropriate? Only 1.0 deduction for the fall? 2.29 GOE deduction? For me it was a jarring mistake.

I agree it is very different in person and no I have never seen Chan, Dai or any top men skate. His speed and flow are amazing. I realize the basics come before jumping in the training, but I found Yagudins SP Winter a great, exciting skate. That is my idea of exciting, good program. I realize his speed and flow are nothing like Patrick's. I appreciate his skating very much, but I feel he is not paying the price for the sloppy skating in his two events and I expect him to jump cleaner with all this talent. Strangely, in pairs, I care more about beautiful basics, unison than bigger tricks, more difficult side by side jumps. I already prefer V/T to the far more athletic S/S I think watching much more 6.0 skating, I am of that era.

I also feel that women should not try to match the men because of joint injuries. While it was thrilling to watch Midori/Asada do those 3Axels, I worry about seeing a Tara Lipinski able to compete just a few years. So I am someone who looks for something very different from each of the four disciplines.

If you look at the GP final, you see that no one can do it all. I am more concerned with artistry, choreography, beautiful elements in ladies. In men's I would rather watch an amazing jumper. I watch ice dance when i want to see amazing skating skills. Plushenko, as wonderful as he is, is not my favorite skater from the past, but he had a good point that without the jumps it is ice dance. The fact that I feel Patrick gets over scored does not mean I dislike him. And yes, when I finally got to see the skates uploaded on youtube, I concede Dai has a very disappointing SP. His LP was masterfully skated, and much cleaner. With a minor mistake, i wonder why the judges did not give it to him? Numbers are subjective and manipulated.

I can see that this CoP, while it clearly makes more rounded skaters with much better footwork sequences, tries to pack to much in. Very few people in singles can skate a clean SP or LP , never mind two in one competition. The mens was actually pretty good this year. As for the American men, we have two beautiful blade to ice skaters in Jeremy and Adam Rippon. But they cannot jump consistently, at least not in competition. I imagine tweaking will bring about balance in singles again.

One think I don't get is the ugly elements getting done in every program. Sandhu did the butt spin. Why must he be copied in every mens program when other spins are far more beautiful and difficult? Why does every woman have to do Sasha's I spin even if it's slow with a bent leg? Under CoP I see singles all doing the same elements, and I guess it's for the point value. I am not a fan of the Yuna bent leg camel. But they all do it, even in pairs. I see no falling leafs or amazing russian splits. How can some of these ugly moves be harder than real blurred scratch spins? How can individuality be encouraged in this system?

 

[Mathman]

He has that twinkle in his eyes when he is right too.

He didn't sound as stupid as the anti-COP crusaders masquerading as skating commentators.

Quite true that the American commentators who say, "duh, that-there new scoring system they up and sprung on us shore is complicated -- I know you out there in television land don't understand it any better than I do" -- those commentators don't do us any favors.

But I just can't wrap my mind around the idea that the most important thing about a figure skating contest -- the thing that determines who wins a gold medal and who goes home empty-handed is, "how may revolutions in the air did he do before he fell."

The revolutions in the air comprise the part of the element that is least connected to figure skating. The landing on a perfect arc on the eighth-of-an-inch blade -- that's the part that is most directly connected with actual skating.

I have seen, on video, a member of this very forum do a triple Lutz at home standing on a carpet in his stocking feet. As far as I could tell, he got the revolutions in. Rotating a triple Lutz has, in fact, nothing to do with skating at all.

The approach, yes. The take-off, yes. And oh my goodness YES for the landing. Great skating skill is required to land a jump without falling.

I am not saying that completing the rotations is easy, just that it is not really an integral part of figure skating. Landing the jump is. This should be reflected in the scores, IMHO.

 

[Tonichelle]

When Yagudin bashed his head in the boards at the Good Will Games in 2001 he was still given a chance at gold (Plushenko didn't try to do karate exercises in the SP or LP and won IIRC). Honestly can't fault Patrick for the running into the boards... a lot of guys have done it (Matt Savoie did it...and if the ref hadn't stopped him afterwards, stupid call IMO, he would've scored higher... but that whole nationals was a mess... Weir hit the boards too and withdrew)