Article:"Rewarding Failure Diminishes Sport" | Page 12 | Golden Skate

Article:"Rewarding Failure Diminishes Sport"

Here we go again. The posts justifying the CoP get longer and longer and more and more passionate. "Read more ISU scripture and you will be saved."

Friendlander's concern is not to pick on Patrick Chan. She, too, wants to save figure skating. The ISU thinks that figure skating is not in need of saving, we're doing just fine, thanks. I guess time will tell.

While I'm not at all involved with anything figure skating (am just learning how to skate), and so I have nothing of value to add to the conversation about scoring systems, but I've got to say that making a mockery of the Bible is completely inappropriate for this discussion.
 
^ I wasn't making fun of the Bible, I was making fun of the idea that the rules and regulations of the International Skating Union sometimes seem to be revered like the Bible.

Actually, my religion is very like my enjoyment of figure skating. I used to spend countless hours poring over the details of the protocols. I found the exercise interesting, but in the end (like the Preacher in Ecclesiastes), unsatisfying.

Now I simply make a joyful noise. :)

I am sorry if anything I wrote gave anyone the idea that I was disrespecting religion. To the Valiant X, welcome to the forum. Post often, post long!
 
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In my opinion a failure is not rewarded, but all the areas the skater is doing really well are rewarded. And that is why Chan has been winning in spite of having jumping error(s). He is really brilliant in so many different areas.
 
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yeah 'dopey' is too tough a word. But even though footwork is hard it's not as hard as a quad or a triple axel. As for tripping on a foreign object - I don't think they should be penalized for that - it's the organizers responsibility to provide a clean surface. Ruts - that's part of the sport, hmmm. Skate problems, that's tough for skaters, but I'd say it's the skaters responsibility to make sure their equipment is in working order. For me a fall by an elite skater doing back cross overs is more egregious then a fall on a triple salchow and that's more egregious than a fall on a quad flip.

The skaters have said repeatedly that Level 4 footwork is MORE difficult than a quad or a triple axel. The footwork takes up to 30 seconds to perform, and the skaters has to be fully focussed and sharp for that entire time or they will stumble, trip or fall, versus a jump which is over with in a couple of seconds. As well, the sequences are physically draining in ways that the jumps are not. While some skaters spend 30 second doing a quad, most of that time is spent stroking around, setting up for the jump, and not as physically demanding or draining as the footwork.

There are a LOT more skaters doing quads and 3A's than there are doing Level 4 footwork.
 
Unfortunately, though, it does happen on occasion, and not really the organizers' fault either. Could be debris from the previous skater's costume or something fans threw on the ice for the previous skater or something that fell from the ceiling.

If we want to not penalize skaters at all if they fall for such a reason, then as soon as they fall and think there was a foreign object at fault they would have to immediately stop the program, go to the referee, and start an investigation of the ice surface. Which means the program/competition would be interrupted for several minutes, which would hurt the artistic impression more than if the skater just got up and kept going.

And then depending whether they found the obstacle or not, the skater would either get no penalty (except the hit to Performance/Execution) or a large penalty (fall and interruption deduction(s) of more than the current 1.0 per fall)?

So some skaters who weren't sure why they fell or who knew it was their own fault but wanted a chance to catch their breath would also stop their programs on purpose. That's not a trend I want to see encouraged.

*cough*Tonya Harding*cough*









*looks around* what?
 
^As my dear mother would say when she was asked "who are your talking to" she would say
"anyone who wants to listen". :)
 
im fine with rewarding taking risks even if they fail, i'm sorry but id rather see a bunch of quads in a men's competition than not, makes it more entertaining for me

go big or go home.
 
Unfortunately, though, it does happen on occasion, and not really the organizers' fault either. Could be debris from the previous skater's costume or something fans threw on the ice for the previous skater or something that fell from the ceiling.
Barbara Fusar-Poli once said that there were a lot of Savarovski crystals on the ice from all the falls in the OD at the 2006 Olympics, though she was clear that F-P/M's memorable fall was not because of that.

The skaters have said repeatedly that Level 4 footwork is MORE difficult than a quad or a triple axel. The footwork takes up to 30 seconds to perform, and the skaters has to be fully focussed and sharp for that entire time or they will stumble, trip or fall, versus a jump which is over with in a couple of seconds. As well, the sequences are physically draining in ways that the jumps are not. While some skaters spend 30 second doing a quad, most of that time is spent stroking around, setting up for the jump, and not as physically demanding or draining as the footwork.

There are a LOT more skaters doing quads and 3A's than there are doing Level 4 footwork.
A lot more can go wrong on a 3A than on a step sequence, even though it doesn't last as long, and obviously it requires a fair amount of focus and sharpness, not to mention ability. I've come across comments from more than one skater about how adding a quad to the program changes it for them and makes things much more difficult, so I guess you could also say that quads are draining in a way footwork is not. And I'd love to see you come up with an example of a skater with a 30-second setup for a quad; I don't think you'll find one. Some jumps do require a bit more of a setup; better, IMO, for skaters to have a less difficult entry and a good jump (height, distance, nice running edge coming out) than a cute setup into an iffy jump, and the landing not held because it's time for another transition. But I realize that the system can make it seem as though jump entries are more important than the actual jumps.

Element levels are dependent on the technical callers, who used to be quite stingy with the level 4s even for skaters who excel at footwork. Meanwhile, 3As and quads are something controlled by the skaters entirely - either you do your jump right or you don't. Personally, I sometimes prefer lower level step sequences; I'd rather not see an endless step sequence in which the skater goes this way and that with no discernible pattern, packing in as many of the bullet points as humanly possible. It's boring. A step sequence should not be an endurance test. Also, high level step sequences over-emphasize upper body movement, and I'd rather look at what skaters can do with their blades than with their torso and arms.

BTW, in the ladies, there are several skaters capable of level 4 steps, but not so many doing 3axels, and only one lady has ever been credited with a quad in competition. The situation in pairs is similar. As Doris has pointed out in the past, Charlie White was the first US singles skater to get a level 4 on steps. So clearly there are skaters for whom a level 4 step sequence is realistic, while a consistent quad or 3A is not. I don't think there's any need to minimize the difficulty of one or the other.
 
It's also worth pointing out that although Charlie did make it to Nationals in Juniors, his triple lutz was not always there, and he never, AFAIK, landed a 3A in competition. Certainly, Charlie found the steps easier than the jumps.
 
It's also worth pointing out that although Charlie did make it to Nationals in Juniors, his triple lutz was not always there, and he never, AFAIK, landed a 3A in competition. Certainly, Charlie found the steps easier than the jumps.
Charlie's example highlights something about the possible motivations when skaters need to pick a discipline or switch disciplines. A skater who can jump/likes to jump but has some weaknesses in other areas will likely continue in singles and maybe acquire more polish and other skills later on. But a skater who's strong in footwork and moves in the field but does not do well as a jumper and/or does not enjoy it will either stall at a lower level, or switch to another discipline at some point, most likely ice dance (or in some cases, synchro). Few skaters will be equally strong in all areas of their skating, and sometimes another discipline is the best choice for one's skill set and preferences. A strong jumper seems to me less likely to switch disciplines than a skater who is strong in other areas, because it's singles where jumping is most emphasized.

There are a number of high-level ice dancers who got their start in singles but found the steps easier/more enjoyable than the jumps. I think it was Nathalie Pechalat who once said that she liked jumping but not falling, so she made the switch. I'm sure she's not the only one :)
 
Good point, Buttercup.

In the 6.0 days, Jayne Torvill started out as a pairs skater. I don't know why she changed, but I'm sure her pairs experience gave her more ability to adapt to Christopher Dean's innovative choreography.
 
Novitski of Khoklova & Novitski said he couldn't get the triple jumps and switched to ice dancing.

Charlie started dance (to improve his posture at singles, I think I heard?) long before he ever got to juniors, and competed in both disciplines at the same time. I believe he quit singles & hockey when it looked like he was going to be most successful in dance with Meryl than in singles or hockey. His hockey injury may have had something to do with it, too; I'm in no position to know.
 
Charlie White broke his leg playing hockey and was forbidden by his coach ever to play hockey again. He lost a year of competition because of the break. D/W might have become competitive with V/M much sooner if not for that lost year.
 
^

Maybe, but OTOH if it were not for Tessa's battle with compartment syndrome, Meryl and Charlie might still be significantly behind Tessa and Scott.

There is always another way to play "what if".
 
Neither did Charlie -- Davis/White competed on the JGP that season before he was injured.
 
Skaters, like other athletes, always risk acute injuries (from falls) or wear-and-tear structural injuries (like Tessa's legs and Yagudin's hip). So there's always a chance that they'll have to take some time out from practice and competition. Regardless, both of these teams have made it to the absolute top of the absolute heap, and they seem to toss first place back and forth between them. I don't think I can rank them in relation to each other, just in relation to the rest of the field.
 
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