Artistry

[Shayuki]

Sorry to all the Shcherbakova fans out there, but can we at least see her international debut before we start hyping her? It’s honestly a little baffling to see so many people prop up a skater who hasn’t even been on the JGP yet.

See, that's a little odd to me. The reason she missed JGP is because of her injury, not because she's not good enough. She's a quad girl whose artistry also happens to be her strongest aspect(Which in itself is a very special thing). Her base value even without a quad is higher than Alina Zagitova's olympic gold medal-winning free skate and she recently defeated Alexandra Trusova as well as Anastasia Tarakanova who both are rather prominent JGP names. She's the youngest winner of the elder age-category Russian championships in recent history which she won at 11 years of age.

Would one be supposed to never mention her until she has her JGP debut and then act surprised by where she came from? Especially when it's about something like artistry - I believe that larger audiences would benefit her and I also think that she would be better received internationally.

Scherbakova? She is as artistic as Ashley Wagner with the current level of her SS.

... You really hate her SS for some reason. It didn't look any better here? She got lvl 4 step sequence for the first time in her life at least. Steps looked accurate throughout.

 

[DiamondDust]

Carolina and Satoko are the artistic ones imo of the current singles ladies. But the most artistic of all for me is Mao Asada... such grace on ice.:

 

[crazydreamer]

She may in time develop some artistry, but at this point she is a perky, coltish juniorish skater with entirely overblown components who barely acknowledges there is music playing as she skates. I'm not saying she'll never get there, but I don't think the comparison is apt at this point. Plus, unfortunately, there is no impetus for her to develop artistic qualities, as the judges do not reward them.

I agree that she is lacking in performance and grace, but I do think she skates to the music and has good musical instincts. Her jumps and arm movements are pretty perfectly timed, it’s just, as you said, she is pretty coltish and lacks expression.

I think there are basically four components to artistry in skating.

1) Choreography - which the skater has really nothing to do with. Purely about the program, regardless of who is performing it. (I don’t think Zagitova has great choreography. It is too focused on transitions and backloading. I think Osmund and Satoko had the best choreography this year.)

2) Musicality - whether the skater is actually executing the choreography in time with the music. (I think she’s pretty good at this. Sasha Cohen was the best I’ve ever seen)

3) Grace - lines, balletic quality to the skating, pointed toes, posture, position of arms and legs on jump landings (Zagitova needs work; she obviously has ballet training, but it’s obvious she’s focused more on jumps; Satoko is the epitome of grace in skating today; most of the Japanese skaters in fact are very graceful.)

4) Expression - are they focused on the elements, or are they engaging the audience and telling a story? You do this both through the face and the body. (Zagitova needs work, she is very stone faced when she skates and has no story to her programs as far as I can tell; Kostner, Wagner, and Medvedeva have great expression.

 

[alvina9894]

... You really hate her SS for some reason. It didn't look any better here? She got lvl 4 step sequence for the first time in her life at least. Steps looked accurate throughout.

Level 4 step sequence is great, but getting a level 4 does not show the full picture. Alina Zagitova gets StSq4 all the time and her SS is not exactly superb.

The required ice coverage and variety of steps/turns of step sequence is fixed, so let's compare efficacy of blade usage in different ladies. All StSq chosen here are graded level 4.

Carolina Kostner: StSq4 at 2:35 to 3:10, takes a total of 35 seconds
Anastasiia Gubanova: StSq4 at 0:44 to 1:17, takes a total of 33 seconds
Alena Kostornaia: StSq4 at 0:51 to 1:27, takes a total of 36 seconds
Alina Zagitova: StSq4 at 1:35 to 2:20, takes a total of 45 seconds
Anna Scherbakova: StSq4 at 0:30 to 1:24 minus 2 seconds of posing, takes a total of 52 seconds

Do you see why I find dislike Scherbakova's SS? She fails to maintain speed when executing steps and turns (due to poor use of knee and ankle), or else she wouldn't need to choreograph her step sequence to drag on for 1/4 of her FS.

 

[Proxy]

Says more about the current state of senior ladies, I guess.

I'd take Gubanova, Kostornaia, Shcherbakova and more artistically over any current senior lady.


Lengthy post but yes, Alina's arm usage especially in the SP is quite impressive. Probably the best among senior ladies and I'm not sure when she gained that because I didn't notice it earlier in the season. She doesn't quite earn my "divine arms"-grade but she's getting there.

Miyahara for sure, she's the 1st one that comes to mind. Fair point though that there isn't much to work with in this generation.

 

[randomfan]

See, that's a little odd to me. The reason she missed JGP is because of her injury, not because she's not good enough. She's a quad girl whose artistry also happens to be her strongest aspect(Which in itself is a very special thing). Her base value even without a quad is higher than Alina Zagitova's olympic gold medal-winning free skate and she recently defeated Alexandra Trusova as well as Anastasia Tarakanova who both are rather prominent JGP names. She's the youngest winner of the elder age-category Russian championships in recent history which she won at 11 years of age.

Would one be supposed to never mention her until she has her JGP debut and then act surprised by where she came from? Especially when it's about something like artistry - I believe that larger audiences would benefit her and I also think that she would be better received internationally.

I never said that you should not mention her. Of course it’s fun to talk about some promising skaters. I’ve seen how good Shcherbakova is, but to say that she’s already a lot better than some seniors out there is definitely a stretch. Yes she was injured, but either way her JGP debut hasn’t happened yet. No matter how talented a skater is, we need to see how they do on the international stage before jumping into conclusions.

 

[Shayuki]

Level 4 step sequence is great, but getting a level 4 does not show the full picture. Alina Zagitova gets StSq4 all the time and her SS is not exactly superb.

The required ice coverage and variety of steps/turns of step sequence is fixed, so let's compare efficacy of blade usage in different ladies. All StSq chosen here are graded level 4.

Carolina Kostner: StSq4 at 2:35 to 3:10, takes a total of 35 seconds
Anastasiia Gubanova: StSq4 at 0:44 to 1:17, takes a total of 33 seconds
Alena Kostornaia: StSq4 at 0:51 to 1:27, takes a total of 36 seconds
Alina Zagitova: StSq4 at 1:35 to 2:20, takes a total of 45 seconds
Anna Scherbakova: StSq4 at 0:30 to 1:24 minus 2 seconds of posing, takes a total of 52 seconds

Do you see why I find dislike Scherbakova's SS? She fails to maintain speed when executing steps and turns (due to poor use of knee and ankle), or else she wouldn't need to choreograph her step sequence to drag on for 1/4 of her FS.

Because of the amount of time it lasts? Yes, I know it takes a really long time but I don't see it as a problem for the program. That doesn't mean that it's necessary for it to take such a long time for her to get lvl 4 for it. Even with such a long step sequence, she still missed the backload bonus for the first jump - That's more the point and reasoning behind it lasting such a long amount of time. So that she can backload 7 jumps. As for your assessment - I'll disagree. In fact, in my opinion she maintains speed very well when executing them - Look at some of the transitions.

Example.

Really, her biggest problem is that her legs are too long and thin so she looks pretty awkward when skating. But the actual skating's more than good enough for her age. Much better than Zagitova's, Medvedeva's, Sotskova's, Tsurskaya's, what have you. For her age. Not better than Kostornaia's, but calling her an Ashley Wagner... tsk.

 

[schizoanalyst]

I know there are different people with different opinions on artistry, especially in the ladies' singles event, so feel free to discuss your opinions here.

I regard artistry as any presentation that heightens or complicates or changes our understanding of a piece of music. This is what dance does at its best, and I don’t think skating should necessarily be different. I don’t regard artistry as naively hitting simple musical cues or just keeping up with a tempo, although the judges tend to. This doesn’t mean "performing" to a piece of music either, anyone can ham it up to Carmen. Currently, there is really no women’s or men’s skater that achieves it. There are two pair teams and one dance team that I would say are artistically talented, but they are clearly constrained by the COP system.

I personally would like to know how we can promote the artistry that Giada Russo and Karen Chen show in their SPs. I feel ladies' singles suffers from a lot of things. Programmes crammed with transitions are rewarded, which leaves comparatively little space for artistic expression.

Jettison COP, which is so restrictive in what it demands, it's a marvel that we get any creativity. The creation of COP has made programs boring and uninspired.

Something comes from the nature of the sport itself, because a program with more flow shows more skill, which inevitably removes certain genres like Hip-Hop (though Daisuke Takahashi had a different opinion) from the equation, but the SPs of Russo and Chen aren't Hip-Hop.

Rap is a diverse genre, I could craft a Kendrick Lamar program that flows.

Is it also the case that the judges are too set in their ways? I remember in an interview Yuna said she was afraid to use traditional Korean music for fear of how it would be received by the Western audience and judges. Is it a "whatever works better" mentality that causes stagnation?

Most judges aren’t qualified or capable of judging anything aesthetically. If that were the case, we wouldn’t see corridor judging. I don’t buy for one second that every skater’s components are within 0.25-0.5 of each other. In my estimation, some of the top competitors deserve mid 8s in transitions, but 6s or 7s in interpretation. The fact that we always see the scores so closely clustered (and combined with that PCS can so rapidly change over the course of a season) tell you they aren’t judging anything related to to that. It’s just a halo affect from TES and reputation and nothing more.

Similar problem for the two events separated by gender, too? Fluidity for women, strength for men?

Seems too restricted, but skating always has had retrograde gender politics about it.

 

[GGFan]

I've kind of avoided this topic because I think any definition of artistry will inherently be restrictive. I also do not think that artistry is a necessity. There are other qualities that can make a skater stand out.

When I think of artistry some examples that come to mind: 1) Janet Lynn's sense of flight on the ice and commitment to holding out her positions. She somehow embodied the music and brought it to life. 2) John Curry's gorgeousness and commitment to making everything look beautiful on the ice. 3) Berezhnaya and Sikarulidze's lines and flow over the ice. 4) Jeff Buttle's fanatical commitment to his pieces of music. His willingness to fall over and over again to perfect a piece of footwork to Adios Nonino. 5) Michelle Kwan . There are many others of course.

But that's not the only thing that works for skaters. These things may not be considered artistry but they are absolutely impressive: 1) Brian Boitano's presence and his spread eagle; 2) Yuna Kim's musicality! David Wilson has talked about it at length. 3) Alexei Yagudin's confidence and ability to use his footwork sequences to bring the entire audience into his programs. 4) Yuzuru's ability to add flourishes and hit the highlights of music. 5) Lucinda Ruh's spins :luv17: Many other examples in this camp as well.

Even when skaters are not naturally talented with music I want to see them develop a style or a point of view. At the very least don't bore me.

 

[moonvine]

I'm repeating myself, but you don't get points for great arms, except maybe in PCS and even then maybe not. The difference between a beautiful level 4 step sequence and a level 1 step sequence is not that huge, it can be made up easily with a triple or quad. Artistry isn't being rewarded. Jumping is being rewarded.

 

[minze]

Carolina and Satoko are the artistic ones imo of the current singles ladies. But the most artistic of all for me is Mao Asada... such grace on ice.:

Artistry= Mao Asada

 

[CellarDweller]

When I see discussions on figure skating and artistry, I always go to Sasha Cohen.

 

[qwertyskates]

Stqsq shouldn't be judged based on how much time it took to execute, but how it is performed to the tempo, rhythm and pace of the music.:noshake:

 

[qwertyskates]

I'm repeating myself, but you don't get points for great arms, except maybe in PCS and even then maybe not. The difference between a beautiful level 4 step sequence and a level 1 step sequence is not that huge, it can be made up easily with a triple or quad. Artistry isn't being rewarded. Jumping is being rewarded.

This is why the PCS should reflect the extra efforts and details put into the performance to reward and encourage better choreography.

I actually like Gracie Gold's hated "helicopter arms" in the flapper Gershwin program she did earlier in her career.

 

[shine]

Gubanova and Kostornaia I can see artistry starting to develop.
Scherbakova? She is as artistic as Ashley Wagner with the current level of her SS.

"Starting"? Gubanova is already one of the most beautiful skaters I've ever seen, period.