Ashley Wagner and Caroline Zhang ?

[silverlake22]

Here is Alissa at 2004 Skate America.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6Co8ilXlvo

There was a buzz about her but it was all about the future. Alissa was no threat to Sasha or Michelle in '04.

And just for fun a look back at Miki from 2004 Skate America.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdBr4_upBJ8

Wow! They have both improved soo much since then! I will admit that Miki was very impressive for a 16 year old, although I think her skating regressed in the years following the 04-05 season when she gained weight, dealt with injuries and the media pressure, and focused too much on the 4s and not enough on the rest of her skating, until 06-07 of course when she came back better than ever and won worlds, and has continued to polish her skating since.

 

[pangtongfan]

Miki has gradually gone downhill since 06-07 in fact. And if all the ladies who were strong from 2008-2010 were still around and skating the same way she would be the same non factor now she was during those years. Thanks to Kim, Asada, Rochette, Kostner, and others all either retiring or completely falling apart though she has risen to back to the top with skating she would have struggled to be top 5 with just a year ago. Go figure. Only one delusional would think her success this year has more to do with her than everything happening around her. Her winning performances at Worlds this year set skating back 25 years atleast.

 

[chloepoco]

Miki has gradually gone downhill since 06-07 in fact. And if all the ladies who were strong from 2008-2010 were still around and skating the same way she would be the same non factor now she was during those years. Thanks to Kim, Asada, Rochette, Kostner, and others all either retiring or completely falling apart though she has risen to back to the top with skating she would have struggled to be top 5 with just a year ago. Go figure. Only one delusional would think her success this year has more to do with her than everything happening around her. Her winning performances at Worlds this year set skating back 25 years atleast.

Not everyone feels the same way that you do about Miki.

 

[Spun Silver]

That's for sure. How can anyone blame one skater for setting skating back 25 years? That's pure venom. :disapp:

 

[pangtongfan]

Even rational minded people who like Miki would admit and have agreed with me that her best performances from this year would only come 5th or maybe 4th in Vancouver (and if 4th only due to Nagasu being a newcomer). I have yet to see one person even try to argue she could have medalled in Vancouver with her performance this season, never mind being within 25 or 30 points of Yu Na Kim there. I am not saying anything that is untrue. Miki would never be having the success she is having this year if the real stars of the last few years were skating at their normal level. It is not even a debate really. Her peak level of skating, well jumping mostly (and jumping is all that matters in her skating) was the 06-07 season. Her next best ever that was in fact in 2004. She has hardly improved, she has gone downhill since then and was not any sort of factor in 2008-2010, and has become a major factor again only due to the complete collapse of all the many women who were ahead of her these last 3 years, not due to some groundbreaking improvement in her own skating.

As for my setting back 25 years comment which years could she have won Worlds with her performances this year:

2010- LOL of course not
2009- definitely not
2008- Mao with only one fall but such beautiful skating and a triple-triple in both programs (downgraded in one) of course beats Miki from this year.
2007- Miki from this year would easily beat Miki of this year, she skated flawlessly with a triple lutz-triple loop in both programs.
2006- Meissner with her triple-triples and flawless performance again easily beats Miki of this year.
2005- Slutskaya from here blows away Miki from this year.
2004- likewise Shizuka of this year
2003- likewise Michelle of this year
2002- Slutskaya skating cleanly, easily beats Miki of this year.
2001- likewise Michelle this year
2000- likewise Michelle this year
1999- Maria with 7 triples, better spins, and much better artistry, easily beats Miki of this year.
1998- Michelle with one fall but 6 triples and far better artistry, again easily the winner over Miki this year.
1997- Tara of this year blows Miki of this year away.
1996- LOL
1995- Chen with 5 triples, that is all Miki did this year, and Chen's artistry and overall skating in another league, so obviously Chen
1994- Sato with 6 triples and amazing spins, footwork, speed, and stroking, easily wins over Miki of this year.
1993- Baiul with 5 triples and much superior artistry obviously wins over Miki this year.
1992- Yamaguchi easily
1991- again
1990- assuming no figures Ito blows away Miki of this year
1989- again
1988- Umm ok this is the first one you can even consider. Miki's performance from this year "might" have won this year with no figures.

So you have to go back to 1988 to find a year Miki would have even had a chance of winning Worlds with her performances from this year. And I didnt even get into the placings. Many of these, including events from the 90s, she wouldnt have even medalled with the same performances.

 

[demarinis5]

Any news on what music Caroline used for her SP at the recent club competition?

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Do you think Miki's victory represents, as a whole, the current field of figure skating and it's future? And given that Ando's score is only two points shy of Asada's winning 2010, what makes you so dismissive? The spiral sequences more than make up that difference.

 

[pangtongfan]

Point totals are irrelevant since scoring has been inflated per quality over time ever since COP was introduced, and Ando wouldnt have scored nearly as high for the same performances in a year the top skaters were skating and she wasnt coming in as a favorite anyway. Do you really think if she did the same long program at last years Worlds when she came in as an afterthought with Kim and Asada in the forefront, she would have ever scored a 130, LOL! Actually her LP at Worlds last year was a better skate than this year and barely scored over 120. Anyway you also are forgetting Asadas 2 downgraded triple axels wouldnt cost her nearly as much with the new downgrade rules, which would make up more points than Andos fugly spiral sequences would. Asada skated much much worse at 4CCs this year, her rep is way down now, and she still nearly won, oh yeah and Ando skated much better than at Worlds there to boot and would have lost to the weakened Asada there with her Worlds performances. All in all it is pretty clear.

As for what Andos victory represents, well if she won obviously (atleast to the judges) that mediocre level is the best out there today, so yes it does reflect the current overall state of ladies skating. The ladies event was the low point of a great Worlds with mediocre mid 80s quality skating battling for the medals, and the medalists turning in performances good enough for only 5th, 6th, and 12th place in Vancouver most likely. Ladies skating has been the biggest joke in decades this season, and not only Ando, but Czisny, a way past her prime Kostner, and many others have all capatilized. Meier the injury beaten up skater who was basically retired wins Europeans in her final competition to boot. Kim is 40% the skater she was in Vancouver and made about 4 or 5 mistakes and still nearly won and probably should have won Worlds. Do you really need any more explanation, one would think watching the pathetic womens competitions this year would be more than enough. It is good they schedule womens singles last since if it remains as it was this year, most fans will just plan their tickets home early and skip the wasteland that ladies singles is. The good news is things should (hopefully) improve next season.

 

[Krislite]

Miki has gradually gone downhill since 06-07 in fact. And if all the ladies who were strong from 2008-2010 were still around and skating the same way she would be the same non factor now she was during those years. Thanks to Kim, Asada, Rochette, Kostner, and others all either retiring or completely falling apart though she has risen to back to the top with skating she would have struggled to be top 5 with just a year ago. Go figure. Only one delusional would think her success this year has more to do with her than everything happening around her. Her winning performances at Worlds this year set skating back 25 years atleast.

This year was an "off-year" for the remaining two who can top Miki (Yuna & Mao) while the other medalists of last seasons were away (Joannie Rochette & Laura Lepisto). Most ladies who win a major title (Worlds or Olympics) tend to experience a down-season in the following year assuming they don't retire at all. So it comes as no surprise that Mao and Yuna were a bit of a downer this season.

Over the last 20 years only Kristi Yamaguchi and Michelle Kwan successfully defended a World Title, and each of them only once. Here's the breakdown of the World Champs and their placement/status the year after their World victory:

YEAR - CHAMPION, NEXT SEASON STATUS
2010 - Asada, 6th
2009 - Kim, 2nd
2008 - Asada, 4th
2007 - Ando, WD
2006 - Meissner, 4th
2005 - Slutskaya, retired
2004 - Arakawa, 9th
2003 - Kwan, 3rd
2002 - Slutskaya, WD
2001 - Kwan, 2nd
2000 - Kwan, defends title
1999 - Butyrskaya, 3rd
1998 - Kwan, 2nd
1997 - Lipinski, retired
1996 - Kwan, 2nd
1995 - Chen Lu, 2nd
1994 - Sato, retired
1993 - Baiul, retired
1992 - Yamaguchi, retired
1991 - Yamaguichi, defends title

Next year's Worlds should see a major step-up, and build up to an even greater level in 2013. (That's my optimistic view anyway.)

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

As for what Andos victory represents, well if she won obviously (atleast to the judges) that mediocre level is the best out there today, so yes it does reflect the current overall state of ladies skating. The ladies event was the low point of a great Worlds with mediocre mid 80s quality skating battling for the medals, and the medalists turning in performances good enough for only 5th, 6th, and 12th place in Vancouver most likely. Ladies skating has been the biggest joke in decades this season, and not only Ando, but Czisny, a way past her prime Kostner, and many others have all capatilized. Meier the injury beaten up skater who was basically retired wins Europeans in her final competition to boot. Kim is 40% the skater she was in Vancouver and made about 4 or 5 mistakes and still nearly won and probably should have won Worlds. Do you really need any more explanation, one would think watching the pathetic womens competitions this year would be more than enough. It is good they schedule womens singles last since if it remains as it was this year, most fans will just plan their tickets home early and skip the wasteland that ladies singles is. The good news is things should (hopefully) improve next season.

I haven't seen Ando's LP. She doesn't interest me enough to do so. My question....

When Buttle won in 2008 without the quad, the question percolated that his victory and what it mean had set figure skating back to late eighties (no quad). So much so that the value of the quad was raised twice. That, along with the new downgrade rules, meant that we'd see quads back. And we did, in a big way.

If you expect things to improve next season, than how can you say it was set back twenty five years, as opposed to just saying it was a blip? That makes no sense to me.

 

[pangtongfan]

The comments on Buttle were stupid. Buttle winning the World title was an incredible sight to see and he should have won alot more in his career if he could have kept it together. He is by far a more talented skater than Lysacek who won more major titles without the quad. He is an amazing skater in every aspect except the lack of a quad.

Ando winning Moscow with only 5 triples and mediocre spins and artistry is a whole other matter entirely though.

And what I should say is I hope ladies skating improves next year. I dont know if I expect it. However it was so incredibly bad this year, that it could improve quite a bit and still be quite bad, so this season has set ladies skating back alot. It might take decades to reach the level they reached in Vancouver just last year ever again.

 

[Jammers]

krislite makes a good point. Can you imagine how bad ladies skating will be if Ando, Costner or Czisny are medal contenders in 2014? It might take the young Russian girls to kick some of the other skaters in the *** to get them to skate better then what we've seen. That includes Mao who's been slipping for almost 3 years now and younger skaters like Mirai who need to step it up. As for the europeans well the less said the better.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

And what I should say is I hope ladies skating improves next year. I dont know if I expect it. However it was so incredibly bad this year, that it could improve quite a bit and still be quite bad, so this season has set ladies skating back alot. It might take decades to reach the level they reached in Vancouver just last year ever again.

Now I see where we differ.

To me, Vancouver was a fluke, not the outcome of 25 years of progress. The level of skating in Vancouver was extremely high and it just doesn't seem likely that, collectively, skaters will reach that level again. I mean, things like Kwak making the top twelve at the Olympics vs not making the free skate at worlds. Laura Lepisto's one event where she actually lands five triples! Joannie didn't double/single any jumps (like in the past), with only a step out and a shaky landing. Kim landing EVERYTHING. Nagasu avoiding UR calls. It was an event for the ages, where virtually every skater outperformed expectations/hopes. That this season didn't measure up to the Olympics.... well, I'd argue that the Olympic season didn't measure up to the Olympics. None of the Olympic podiums had clean programs all season! Asada struggled until 4CC. Joannie had her issues until Nationals. I think we were lucky the Olympics turned out as strongly as they did. And I have to admit, this melange of ladies should be very interesting to watch next season (subject of another post, of course).

 

[pangtongfan]

I agree the 2010 Olympics were an unusually great event but the 2011 Worlds were an unusually bad one. The quality of skating was about on par with the 1982 or 1983 Worlds.

 

[Jammers]

Now I see where we differ.

To me, Vancouver was a fluke, not the outcome of 25 years of progress. The level of skating in Vancouver was extremely high and it just doesn't seem likely that, collectively, skaters will reach that level again. I mean, things like Kwak making the top twelve at the Olympics vs not making the free skate at worlds. Laura Lepisto's one event where she actually lands five triples! Joannie didn't double/single any jumps (like in the past), with only a step out and a shaky landing. Kim landing EVERYTHING. Nagasu avoiding UR calls. It was an event for the ages, where virtually every skater outperformed expectations/hopes. That this season didn't measure up to the Olympics.... well, I'd argue that the Olympic season didn't measure up to the Olympics. None of the Olympic podiums had clean programs all season! Asada struggled until 4CC. Joannie had her issues until Nationals. I think we were lucky the Olympics turned out as strongly as they did. And I have to admit, this melange of ladies should be very interesting to watch next season (subject of another post, of course).

I agree that we might not see the quality of skating that we saw in Vancouver for a long time but it seems like this year skating regressed at least with the ladies. Badly i might say. There will be no excuse not to be better next season. At least for some skaters.

 

[pangtongfan]

I agree with Jammers that if any of Ando, Kostner, or Czisny are in contention for any color medal come Sochi, even the bronze, it will be an extremely sad reflection for the ladies event. Considering those skaters will all be 26, have already hit their best skating, were never close to a medal at the Olympics even in their prime years, etc...Asada or Kim in contention for a medal in Sochi is fine but none of the other current veterans should be unless womens skating is entering the dark ages.

 

[silverlake22]

^^ What if Ando and Kostner start doing 3-3s again?

 

[pangtongfan]

Kostner cant even do a triple lutz and usually not even a triple flip anymore, so that is already bad enough even if she starts doing a triple toe-triple toe or something. Ando hasnt been able to land rotated 3-3s in years now, I doubt she is suddenly going to rediscover them in her mid 20s. That said I hope if she has any real future success she does rediscover something like her formerly excellent triple lutz-triple loop. Those are the kind of jumps a skater like Ando SHOULD have to be doing in order to fight for major medals, let alone titles.

 

[silverlake22]

Kostner cant even do a triple lutz and usually not even a triple flip anymore, so that is already bad enough even if she starts doing a triple toe-triple toe or something. Ando hasnt been able to land rotated 3-3s in years now, I doubt she is suddenly going to rediscover them in her mid 20s.

Ando is always doing them in practice clips though and they look good. Kostner is injured and I presume will bring back the lutz next season, and maybe 3-3s too.

 

[pangtongfan]

I guess we will see. I honestly think Ando and Kostner hit their peaks many years ago, and are only having glittering seasons due to the abysmal ladies event this year. If Ando starts landing 6-7 triples a program and difficult triple-triples again, and Kostner starts doing all triples and 6 or 7 triples again, I might reconsider. Even a career journeywomen like Czisny is having a banner season including winning the prestigious GP final, not that she doesnt deserve some of the credit, but lets be real here. If things are anything like they are now in 2-3 years womens skating is in majorly bad shape as Jammers said.