Ashley Wagner assaulted by John Coughlin

[Casual]

To paraphrase one of my favourite internet quotes:

"If the only time you bring up male sexual assault victims is in response to a post about female sexual assault victims, you don't actually care about male sexual assault victims, you just want to take the focus off male rapists."

I don't get it. Aren't male rapists usually the ones who'd rape male sexual assault victims, too? So, why would talking about even more victims take focus off the perpetrators?

 

[el henry]

"No one judges the victims"

Uh, Nina Edmunds, The Knierim's, a handfull of Figure skating coaches, Delilah Sappenfield and dozens of cowards on the internet all blamed the victims and Nina Edmunds even said the victims' names should be revealed to the public.

The Knierims did not. Please post a direct link to the original post and to Chris and Alexa's response to where they blamed the victim. The second hand screen shots that I see on Twitter these days do not say this, and it is troubling to me to see this mischaracterization spread.

I salute Ashley Wagner. I wish her the very best on this journey and in speaking her truth.

 

[karne]

I don't get it. Aren't male rapists usually the ones who'd rape male sexual assault victims, too? So, why would talking about even more victims take focus off the perpetrators?

The point is that such comments take the focus away from the women - and that the people who say those things actually don't give a flying camel about male rape victims, they just want to take the focus away from women.

 

[Seren]

I once listened to a podcast that interviewed a grief therapist who’s husband had died in a drowning accident. She said that she talks about all kinds of grief- family, friends, pets, etc in her books. Her point was that we shouldn’t treat compassion as a limited resource. It should be limitless and if we want it to be limitless we have to stop giving it out in measures doses.

Our outrage over sexual assault and mistreatment of victims shouldn’t be a limited thing either. It doesn’t matter how severe we think it is. Pain isn’t a contest. All sexual abuse and violence is wrong and we shouldn’t treat it as though there are some more deserving of our attention.

 

[Casual]

No, I don't. This problem is so pervasive that, as far as I'm concerned, any infraction needs to be treated as severely as if it were the worst. The outrage needs to be raised.

That's a mistake. All you're doing is losing credibility. "Oh, it's just those hysterical overreactions, again, and it's probably nothing much, again" - will become a tired response.

Don't devalue your cause by exaggerating the degree of outrage. Malicious vilification over minor infractions will only help serious offenders get off scot free.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I once listened to a podcast that interviewed a grief therapist who’s husband had died in a drowning accident. She said that she talks about all kinds of grief- family, friends, pets, etc in her books. Her point was that we shouldn’t treat compassion as a limited resource. It should be limitless and if we want it to be limitless we have to stop giving it out in measures doses.

Our outrage over sexual assault and mistreatment of victims shouldn’t be a limited thing either. It doesn’t matter how severe we think it is. Pain isn’t a contest. All sexual abuse and violence is wrong and we shouldn’t treat it as though there are some more deserving of our attention.

This is one of the most insightful statements I've read in awhile.

 

[Tavi...]

I don't think ANYONE here is saying he's such a great guy. He's a creep. I never understood those guys in college or older who were into high schoolers. I felt that they were losers, and were missing some brain matter to put it nicely. When this whole story broke, I believed his accusers. I'm glad Ashley was able to tell her story and hopefully girls/young women will be more prepared in case they are in a similar position. Like I said above, this exact scenario has happened to me several times. I learned how to immediately push the hand away or tell him to bug off right from the get go. So if girls can at least learn from others' experiences that is a good thing.

If you want to rationalize what happened to you personally as not that terrible compared to rape, that’s up to you. But the law doesn’t agree with you that what Ashley described was no big deal, or that what girls should be learning from her is a simple “how to say no to unwanted touching.”

In Colorado, if you are convicted of sexual battery - aka unwanted sexual touching - which is the least heavily punished crime, you’re still required to register as a sex offender, can be imprisoned for up to 2 years, and can face a fine of up to $5000. If in addition to touching someone sexually you use your finger to penetrate an orifice (vagina or anus) —and you don’t know that didn’t happen to Ashley — it’s classified as sexual assault, which is generally a felony and faces much harsher penalties. Please stop trying to minimize what happened simply because it could have been worse.

 

[lizardlass]

She is allowed to be afraid. Imagine waking up to this. No one knows how they'd react. Of course it's important to educate girls about consent but no matter what you're being taught, if you're too shocked or too scared to say something in that moment (and it happens!), it is NOT your fault.

And until this happens we need to protect those people whose responses to trauma don't live up to conventional expectations.

Shock is a hell of a drug. People freeze. People lose focus. No one knows how they will react in any given situation until they are in that situation. People don't always respond the way think they will.

The least we can do as a society is not judge them for not responding the way we think victims are supposed to respond. This is not too much to ask of anyone.

Thank you both so much for stressing these points. It is absolutely disgusting to me that people are condemning Ashley for "waiting" five minutes. She was terrified. I can only imagine that level of terror. It's unacceptable that so much of the burden is placed on the victim to react "correctly," to protect themselves adequately, to prevent these things from happening in the first place.

Yes, there are things women can do that might help them protect themselves, and I don't think that anyone is arguing that they should stop doing these things. Martial arts, assertiveness, enforcing boundaries, looking out for each other -- these are all wonderful, positive things that, at the very least, enriches one's life. But all of the power in the world can't protect someone all of the time. Ashley was an innocent girl in her bed, completely vulnerable, preyed upon by a man who knew EXACTLY what he was doing. And I think it's pretty disgusting to try and minimize her experience because he stopped when she asked him to stop. He should not have started to begin with, and that's the point.

 

[ancientpeas]

It does not further the cause of feminism to condemn other women for having opinions that are different from yours. We need to learn to listen to all women, young or old, straight or gay, rich or poor and respect our differences.

I do not see what happened to Ashley as a clumsy attempt at seduction. I also do not see it as a rape. Rape is a specific act. This was an assault. An assault is not the same as a rape and thus the law does distinguish.

 

[rain]

Forcible means "by force". He didn't force her, and by her laying quietly, he might have assumed she acquiesced. As soon as she spoke up, he stopped.

We don't know what happened earlier at the party. Still wrong, and men should be taught from the early age NOT to get sexual without explicit verbal consent. "Looks", "jokes", "flirting", whatever, never justifies crawling into someone's bed. Thinking "she wanted it" is NOT a justification for anything, unless she explicitly says so. They need to be taught!

However, we do know that he worked up very gradually, and she kept silent. He didn't force her, and stopped as soon as asked. "Silence means consent", or as the Romans said, qui tacet consentire videtur, "he who is silent is taken to agree". This is why it's such a tricky situation.

He was wrong to crawl into bed without asking (even if he mistakenly believed she let him know earlier that she'd like him to). She was wrong to keep silent until almost the last moment. Both needed better educating on these matters, IMHO.

These kinds of posts are horrifying in the extreme, and show just how much education needs to happen on what consent is. I genuinely find this so upsetting.

It is not a romantic or even sexual advance to grope an unconscious person, whether they're asleep or passed out. It is straight up assault. Silence is absolutely in no way consent. Total and utter nonsense. Would it still have been an "romantic advance" if he'd penetrated her? How far is "just coming on to her"? An unconscious person by definition cannot consent. It does not matter why they are unconscious. It does not matter what they did before that or how much they had to drink. People's bodies are not objects to be used by others. If someone came up to me in the street and and started groping my chest and tried to kiss me without speaking to me I would shove that person away, start screaming for help, and call the police. The only difference is that in this example I'm actually awake and conscious. It's even more invasive when the person is not. An unconscious woman is not an invitation for sex.

Some of the comments in this thread are truly grotesque, and make me really scared for how people interact with others. I can only hope they have nothing whatsoever to do with educating the next generation. I don't think I can read the rest of this thread.

I think Ashley is really brave for coming forward.

 

[Interspectator]

Thank you for sharing your story Ashley. It is a powerful story because it is close to home to so many of us. It's difficult for me to articulate how important it is that this individual story is told, with it's complexity and detail.
I thought, very naively, that of course people would support her and believe her, because her story rang so true to me.
But reading some of the comments here and elsewhere brought home to me again that we are not all in the same place, looking from the same viewpoint when it comes to sexual assault. People questioned her motives, her memory, her morals, the circumstances, in a way that made me so mad.
But that means this story is even more important.

There is rarely a 'perfect victim' there is rarely a 'perfect villain', so I hope this serves to define the lines yet again in people's minds that there is never a circumstance where sexual assault can be tolerated.

Thank you Ashley.

 

[ruffledgrouse]

Consent and Tea

I share this video every chance I get because what happened to Ashley is so common, and there's always so much confusion over how to classify these attacks.



John tried to pour the tea down Ashley's throat. That's that.

 

[Hyena]

I have intentionally stayed away from this thread and will go back to doing so very shortly - but I want to say I'm encouraged by all the posters I see who are being so knowledgeable and supportive of survivors. And I so appreciate Ashley sharing her story knowing the kind of backlash and judgment she could have gotten. She's a gem, and so are so many of you.

 

[rinkside_user]

This and many other things. But I won't impose my "Russian mentality". It's not popular among active users here. The only thing that I would say is that in Russia we speak only good about the deceased or we don't speak at all.

Sorry but that's a super insensitive and ignorant comment, especially in a thread about victim blaming and sexual predatory.

As an Eastern European myself I find the abovementioned mentality appalling and I am far from alone in that.

+1

 

[karne]

This and many other things. But I won't impose my "Russian mentality". It's not popular among active users here. The only thing that I would say is that in Russia we speak only good about the deceased or we don't speak at all.

So do you speak only good of Hitler and Stalin? Or do you not speak of them at all, which is just as bad?

 

[Freddie]

consent and tea

i share this video every chance i get because what happened to ashley is so common, and there's always so much confusion over how to classify these attacks.




john tried to pour the tea down ashley's throat. That's that.

***love***

 

[Ducky]

That's a mistake. All you're doing is losing credibility. "Oh, it's just those hysterical overreactions, again, and it's probably nothing much, again" - will become a tired response.

Don't devalue your cause by exaggerating the degree of outrage. Malicious vilification over minor infractions will only help serious offenders get off scot free.

So I've been thinking a lot about this.

When you say "Don't devalue your cause by exaggerating the degree of outrage. Malicious vilification over minor infractions will only help serious offenders get off scot free" that is a harmful statement. Women like Ashley Wagner don't come forward sooner, not only because they won't be believed but because a lot of people will say but you weren't really raped right, isn't not that big a deal?

And so much of the female experience is being constantly undermined for not expressing things in the right way. For being too emotional. Or not being emotional enough. For not fitting the preconceived notion of how a victim should act because you didn't fight back/aren't crying right now/seem too well adjusted/were still talking to the guy.

Because all of this adds up. These "minor infractions" are the same as say a gang rape because they all come from place: male entitlement to the female body regardless of her consent, desire or willingness. Coughlin didn't treat Ashley Wagner like a person when he was groping her, he treated her like an object. He de-personed her.

So, no it's not a hysterical overreaction to be upset and outraged over what seems like a "common" sexual assault, the sort of thing that lots of women have experienced and dealt with when it shouldn't be common at all because men cannot seem to understand that a pretty woman isn't just there for his own pleasure. She has a mind, body, and will of her own. And one of the worst things that can be done is to treat her as if she doesn't.

 

[gsk8]

So do you speak only good of Hitler and Stalin? Or do you not speak of them at all, which is just as bad?

Without getting into historical or political debates, it's important to remember that there are posters from all cultures on this board. As a result, ideas, upbringing, morals, values, education, etc. are different.

Here are a couple of recent articles some may find of interest in regards to Russia since there has been a lot of "back and forth". There are many countries who view things differently, so we ask that members discuss in a mature manner without bickering, ranting, and insulting other posters.

http://bit.ly/2ZAgzGB
https://wapo.st/2LVMU7w

The staff has allowed this thread to remain open in order bring awareness of the problem that exists and is prominent, not only in figure skating and other sports, but in society as a whole.

 

[brightphoton]

Because all of this adds up. These "minor infractions" are the same as say a gang rape because they all come from place: male entitlement to the female body regardless of her consent, desire or willingness. Coughlin didn't treat Ashley Wagner like a person when he was groping her, he treated her like an object. He de-personed her.

So, no it's not a hysterical overreaction to be upset and outraged over what seems like a "common" sexual assault, the sort of thing that lots of women have experienced and dealt with when it shouldn't be common at all because men cannot seem to understand that a pretty woman isn't just there for his own pleasure. She has a mind, body, and will of her own. And one of the worst things that can be done is to treat her as if she doesn't.

I'm also not liking this talk of "he just groped her genitals and if he did penetrate, it was only with the finger so it wasn't rape-rape" and "you shouldn't talk about something unless it's investigated and confirmed in triplicate."

Yesterday, a day before Ashley Wagner came forward with her own story of John Coughlin's sexual assault, I was watching the PBS Newshour. I wasn't paying that much attention, but from what I can gather, there was a free position in a government organization and Donald Trump chose a 4-star army general, John Hyten, for the job. But a colonel, a woman, said that in some years past, he had sexually assaulted her. It started off with inappropriate remarks, which she ignored. Then he kissed her passionately, and she shoved him off, and told him no, and additionally, that the general's wife wouldn't like that. She didn't report it because she didn't want to be known in the military as a hard-to-deal with person. She thought he would "get the message" but one day he grabbed her breasts. Another time, he humped her leg before she pushed him off, and then he went into a corner and masturbated. There was a rushed investigation. Now, I'm not sure what the reason for this was, but two things happened: (1) her statements were corroborated by multiple people, but (2) John Hyten was found not guilty of misconduct.

In the end, the female colonel had to endure hours of questioning, 50+ people were also interviewed, and now everyone is judging her and asking, why didn't you do so-and-so-and-so and why didn't this-and-so-and-so happen?

I thought of this when thinking of the John Coughlin situation.

Judy Woodruff (Interviewer): What signal do you think this sends to other women, or men, who are the victims of sexual assault in the military?
Kathryn Spletstoser (colonel): It basically says, look, if your boss is a general officer, no matter what you do, you won't be taken seriously, despite the evidence.

It means that they will try to blame, shame and discredit you, because the OSI investigation didn't investigate him. It really did — it was victim-focused, like trying to discredit me. And it failed to do that.

But it also says, hey, not only will we not believe you and we will discredit you along the way, but we will probably let him get promoted, too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tTTq238xM8&t=35m58s

 

[brightphoton]

I would also like to add that it took a famous and widely-beloved skater like Ashley Wagner to come forward with her own allegations before US Figure Skating decided to make policy changes. When SafeSport first started the investigation, and 3 not-famous and not-widely beloved skaters make accusations, John Coughlin still happily gave private lessons at the USFS-sanctioned Road to Gold skating seminar, and this was a-ok by USFS.

http://comp.entryeeze.com/SingleRinkSched.aspx?id=1417

Later, there were 6 or 7 other not-famous accusers, but I don't know if USFS decided to ignore them or take action before Ashley Wagner came forward.