Best Ladies' Flutzes ever?

[rollerblade]

Poor Viktor is a lady now.

 

[largeman]

I was on Youtube going through old videos of Mao Asada and the protocols (as one does on a leisurely Sunday). I was astonished to realize that Mao had two ratified triple lutzes with positive GOE in the 2008-09 season.
NHK Trophy 2008 SP
GPF 2008 SP

I'm not sure if these two jumps will pass in the eyes of today's callers. I'm guessing at best they'll still receive a !.

I wouldn't say it was just due to the callers being lenient though.. in the NHK Trophy SP, Mao got her 3Lo in the 3F-3Lo downgraded, which anyone can see (let alone Shizuka, who was the commentator in the video) was a completely bogus call.

Anyway, just an unexpected discovery from a newbie (I'm sure discussions on these jumps have occurred ad nauseum )

 

[solani]

@ largeman
Flutzes, and not the best, I don't like her flip/flutz take-off much (especially the NHK flutz take-off is not nice). But her air position is great as always. Nobody is perfect.

 

[FlattFan]

I was on Youtube going through old videos of Mao Asada and the protocols (as one does on a leisurely Sunday). I was astonished to realize that Mao had two ratified triple lutzes with positive GOE in the 2008-09 season.
NHK Trophy 2008 SP
GPF 2008 SP

I'm not sure if these two jumps will pass in the eyes of today's callers. I'm guessing at best they'll still receive a !.

I wouldn't say it was just due to the callers being lenient though.. in the NHK Trophy SP, Mao got her 3Lo in the 3F-3Lo downgraded, which anyone can see (let alone Shizuka, who was the commentator in the video) was a completely bogus call.

Anyway, just an unexpected discovery from a newbie (I'm sure discussions on these jumps have occurred ad nauseum )

At some point in 2008-2009, she did get a couple of good lutz in. Watch a couple of her lutz in comp and practice in this video.
https://youtu.be/O_eHvx-rmV4?t=91

 

[largeman]

At some point in 2008-2009, she did get a couple of good lutz in. Watch a couple of her lutz in comp and practice in this video.
https://youtu.be/O_eHvx-rmV4?t=91

Wow. Thank you. The lutz in practice where she was cut off above the knees, that's a bona fide lutz that I wouldn't have dreamed she was capable of!

Nobody is perfect.

I know. And I love her for always driving herself and striving for perfection... However, I do hope she leaves the lutz out of her programs this season and does not go for "8 triples" anymore. Looking at her flutzes in 2014, I don't believe it's realistic to think she can get a clean edge at this point. And the risk and cost have become too huge.

 

[solani]

I know. And I love her for always driving herself and striving for perfection... However, I do hope she leaves the lutz out of her programs this season and does not go for "8 triples" anymore. Looking at her flutzes in 2014, I don't believe it's realistic to think she can get a clean edge at this point. And the risk and cost have become too huge.

She'll only do one 3Lz in the FS and that will not cost too much, because the question is what she could do instead of that 3Lz. Maybe a 2A or a 3T? Wouldn't make much difference in the end. If she goes for a 3? - half loop - 3S combination there might be more alternatives, maybe a 3S? And I guess she would want to have the whole set of triples on the score sheet.

 

[usethis2]

I suspect that the weight distribution for the men vs women are quite different. With bigger upper body strength, the centre of gravity may be higher for the guys and that outside edge feels may be more stable than the inside edge of the flip. The stability may be what caused a lot of the guys to lip as the outside edge balance is better.

That theory has an intuitive appeal at certain level, but it does not explain why many female youngsters also have problem with lutz. Indeed, most of those adult female skaters who struggle with proper lutz had problematic techniques before they had womanly bodies.

Now, it may be the case that men might be able to correct incorrectly learned techniques more easily as they grow up than women do, but that is a slightly different theory than what you suggested in that it puts more emphasis on learning correct technique when you first learn the lutz instead of putting the entire theory behind upper-body strength.

 

[usethis2]

Thinking about it, I remember seeing quite a few ladies who are not top 10 yet landing nice 3Lz in the Olympics/Worlds. They had very womanly bodies, too. Suggests that it may have more to do with acquiring correct techniques early than with body types.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Any examples come to mind? Maybe link a video ? I can always break out the jumpamatron and we can explore what they are doing right.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Thinking about it, I remember seeing quite a few ladies who are not top 10 yet landing nice 3Lz in the Olympics/Worlds. They had very womanly bodies, too. Suggests that it may have more to do with acquiring correct techniques early than with body types.

Here's the 2014 WC protocol. Note that the #11, 12, 14, 17, 19, 24, 25, 27, 31 all landed clean 3Z. Only 3 out of the top 10 attempted/landed clean true lutzes (4 if you count Osmond). http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2014/wc2014_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf It's a bit sad that a lutz used to be the standard and now the bottom 20 are attempting/doing 3x the lutzes of the top 10.

There are lots of womanly lutzers who have excellent lutzes - I think it has to do with their body type to some extent that they can generate enough power off the toe pick vault to go higher and thus not rely on a change of edge right upon takeoff to start generating the jump rotation.

 

[aromaticchicken]

Here's the 2014 WC protocol. Note that the #11, 12, 14, 17, 19, 24, 25, 27, 31 all landed clean 3Z. Only 3 out of the top 10 attempted/landed clean true lutzes (4 if you count Osmond). http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2014/wc2014_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf It's a bit sad that a lutz used to be the standard and now the bottom 20 are attempting/doing 3x the lutzes of the top 10.

I don't find it sad... the ladies in the top 10 won because, well, clearly they have more to their skating than just the lutz.
And besides, let's look at the top 13 ladies at worlds this year (all of them who stayed post Sochi AND now live in a system where edge calls are much more scrutinized, even more than 2014):

1) Liza (2 clean monstrous Lutzes)
2) Satoko (2 clean Lutz - the takeoffs, anyway)
3) Elena (2 clean Lutz)
4) Gracie (2 clean Lutz, always on correct edge)
5) Ashley (*improved* lutzes on a flat/minor flutz; but even the negative GOE from "!" at Worlds put her behind Gracie)
6) Rika (flutz, which is why she placed 5th in FS despite skating pretty clean)
7) Kanako (no lutz)
8) Polina (2 clean Lutzes)
9) Mae Berenice (1 clean lutz)
10) Alaine (clean lutz takeoffs)
11) So Youn (clean lutz takeoffs)
13) Anna (clean lutz takeoffs)

I don't think we have to worry about lutzes being a staple of the top skaters

In fact... let's look at who was gone this season... Julia, Adelina, and Mao, all three of whom have had a sketchier history of flutzing than most of the top ladies above. (Yeah yeah, i know Julia "fixed" hers, but it certainly still is not as clean as Liza's by any stretch)

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Here's the 2014 WC protocol. Note that the #11, 12, 14, 17, 19, 24, 25, 27, 31 all landed clean 3Z. Only 3 out of the top 10 attempted/landed clean true lutzes (4 if you count Osmond). http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2014/wc2014_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf It's a bit sad that a lutz used to be the standard and now the bottom 20 are attempting/doing 3x the lutzes of the top 10.

Looking at the protocols and all of the negative GOE on those lutz jumps is a bit of a shocker

 

[leafygreens]

Can't look past Tara's for this one. Reminds me of an Australian commentator at the 1998 Olympics saying "There might be some chat about the change of edge going into that lutz". Very tactful...

I don't think judges counted such things back then, and if they did there's no way to prove it!

 

[bmcc102]

Michelle Kwan had better luck with the outside edge on the short entry lutz than the long glide entry. I remember the solo lutz in her second LP at the 99-00 GPF (remember the 'super LP?'):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=j8xygYGoyc0#t=374

The ABC broadcast version of this program (not on youtube, as far as I could find) showed a different angle with a nice replay in slow motion, really close-up and it was definitely on the outside edge.

Compare that lutz to the flip replay from the same program:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8xygYGoyc0&feature=player_detailpage#t=366

Totally different jumps.

By the way, here is a direct link to the outside edge lutz Mao could do in practice in preparation to the 2008-2009 season:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_eHvx-rmV4&feature=player_detailpage#t=83

The comparison between her 06-07 lutz and 08-09 lutz is so cool, because you can pause and see how different the edge was in relation to the picking leg.
I remember it being the off season where she and TAT really worked on the edge and the videos leaked that she could do a real lutz, but during the season, it never looked as strong.

 

[usethis2]

There are lots of womanly lutzers who have excellent lutzes - I think it has to do with their body type to some extent that they can generate enough power off the toe pick vault to go higher and thus not rely on a change of edge right upon takeoff to start generating the jump rotation.

I agree that some skaters lose jumping ability as their bodies change and some skaters have natural advantage in jumping, but what I am uncertain is if that is limited to Lutz. And in the case of Flutz, a further assumption would have to be made that one acquires an incorrect technique later on her career, despite her capability in earlier years, due to the the change of her body. I think that scenario is highly unlikely because I have yet to know a skater who correctly executed Lutz in her early career but has switched to Flutz'ing later on. My tentative view, albeit based on a limited empirical knowledge, is that Flutz'ers were not corrected in their early careers for whatever reasons.

By the way, here is a direct link to the outside edge lutz Mao could do in practice in preparation to the 2008-2009 season:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_eHvx-rmV4&feature=player_detailpage#t=83

The comparison between her 06-07 lutz and 08-09 lutz is so cool, because you can pause and see how different the edge was in relation to the picking leg.
I remember it being the off season where she and TAT really worked on the edge and the videos leaked that she could do a real lutz, but during the season, it never looked as strong.

OMG thank you so much for that. Hmm.. how old was she at that time? 16? Mao definitely could have been a counter evidence of my thesis aforementioned..

 

[Barb]

I agree that some skaters lose jumping ability as their bodies change and some skaters have natural advantage in jumping, but what I am uncertain is if that is limited to Lutz. And in the case of Flutz, a further assumption would have to be made that one acquires an incorrect technique later on her career, despite her capability in earlier years, due to the the change of her body. I think that scenario is highly unlikely because I have yet to know a skater who correctly executed Lutz in her early career but has switched to Flutz'ing later on. My tentative view, albeit based on a limited empirical knowledge, is that Flutz'ers were not corrected in their early careers for whatever reasons.


OMG thank you so much for that. Hmm.. how old was she at that time? 16? Mao definitely could have been a counter evidence of my thesis aforementioned..

I think she was 18yo.

 

[hurrah]

I think she was 18yo.

That's not a real lutz. That's a CoP lutz that most skaters are doing nowadays. Yeah. Mao could do a CoP lutz at the age of 18, and then she went through a growth spurt during the off-season and her body continued to mature and grow sideways for another 2-3 years until about the age of 21, during which she decided to not just re-learn the lutz but start all over again from the basics. Mao may still manage to learn a real lutz by Pyeongchang.

 

[Franklin99]

That's not a real lutz. That's a CoP lutz that most skaters are doing nowadays. Yeah. Mao could do a CoP lutz at the age of 18, and then she went through a growth spurt during the off-season and her body continued to mature and grow sideways for another 2-3 years until about the age of 21, during which she decided to not just re-learn the lutz but start all over again from the basics. Mao may still manage to learn a real lutz by Pyeongchang.

What is a COP Lutz, and what are the difference between a COP Lutz and a real Lutz?

 

[AsadaFanBoy]

What is a COP Lutz, and what are the difference between a COP Lutz and a real Lutz?

no formal designations, but in fandom they commonly mean:

"real lutz" - long rear back outside edge glide (difficult to maintain rear back outside edge, counterrotated - makes jump difficult) - with good technique, the outside edge is deepened before takeoff

"COP lutz" - short outside edge glide. outside edge may be exaggerated. there are many different reasons why a rear back outside edge isn't held as long as it used to be held in previous eras - steps into/out of the jump, transitions, takeoff edge scrutiny (shorter glide makes it harder to detect flutzing for judges so GOE may not be affected at the outset but it makes no difference to the tech caller who has access to slow motion replay.

Different eras, different strategies. Affects jump set up.

There are others more knowledgeable who at some point will kindly chime in with input.

 

[JayW]

no formal designations, but in fandom they commonly mean:

"real lutz" - long rear back outside edge glide (difficult to maintain rear back outside edge, counterrotated - makes jump difficult) - with good technique, the outside edge is deepened before takeoff

"COP lutz" - short outside edge glide. outside edge may be exaggerated. there are many different reasons why a rear back outside edge isn't held as long as it used to be held in previous eras - steps into/out of the jump, transitions, takeoff edge scrutiny (shorter glide makes it harder to detect flutzing for judges so GOE may not be affected at the outset but it makes no difference to the tech caller who has access to slow motion replay.

Different eras, different strategies. Affects jump set up.

There are others more knowledgeable who at some point will kindly chime in with input.

"long rear back outside edge glide" --- I am thinking about Carolina Kostner gliding Lutz instantly. What a beautiful Lutz she has.