Best man w/o quad or ladies w/o quad/3A at Jr/Sr Worlds

[NaVi]

I just realized that for the first time ever that every medalist for men could be attempting a quad AND every medalist for ladies could be attempting either a 3A or quad at both the junior and senior world championships. This is because Maiia Khromykh is attempting a 4S. (Actually, when writing this post I realize that neither Khromykh nor Valieva have quads listed on their planned content. )

Which brings me back to a post I wrote last fall in the thread about replacing the SP/FS with an Artistic and Technical program:

The last quadless men's world's medalist was Patrick Chan in 2010 which was the same year Evan Lysacek won the Olympic championships without a quad. We're entering an era where you probably need a 3A or quad to win the ladies gold medal and soon one of those will be needed for any medal at Worlds/Olympics.

There really should be a tech limit version of figure skating. With the limited versions being no quads for men and no quads or triple axels for ladies.

I think it'd be very interesting if during the world championships there would be a little concurrent subcompetition for the tech limit champion. The top team or teams should be able to submit a 4th skater to participate in the subcompetition. It could make the earlier flight of skaters more interesting to watch.

So it's interesting to look back at the men and who would win such a competition.

2019 - #23 Julian Zhi Jie Yee | Matteo Rizzo and Jason Brown might have lowered their tech content to contend for the subcompetition though... especially if Brown was given a 4th US spot.
2018 - #6 Deniss Vasiljevs | Jason Brown skipped worlds... but if there had been a 4th spot available for the competition then he probably would have showed up. Honorable mention to Misha Ge who had a good performance here too.
2017 - #12 Misha Ge | Jason Brown did a quad but would he have if there was a quadless subcompetition and he could have been the 4th guy? Deniss Vasiljevs was #14
2016 - #14 Deniss Vasiljevs | He would have edged out #15 Misha Ge and #16 Jork Hendrickx... but #6 Adam Rippon could have easily took his quad out which he did at the Olympics especially if he had been given a special 4th spot.
2015 - #4 Jason Brown | #6 Misha Ge #8 Adam Rippon #11 Joshua Farris did a quad but he was not really comfortable with it
2014 - #7 Han Yan | #12 Nam Nguyen #13 Ivan Righini ... Jeremy Abbott was #5 and I could see him competing in this type of format... but the US only had 2 spots that year.
2013 - #11 Peter Liebers | Perhaps someone above him would have lowered their tech content to compete
2012 - #10 Samuel Contesti | #13 Adam Rippon had a downgraded 4S... he could have easily took it out if the opportunity to win a tech limited subcompetition was there... but US only had 2 spots that year.
2011 - #7 Florent Amodio | #11 Ross Miner


Doing this might help extend careers and reduce some from pursuing quads they can't really do. And doing this would give more recognition to the more artistically inclined skaters while still keeping them to a technical standard.

ADDENDUM EDIT: I think this is some fashion could be an Olympic medal worthy event. I would consider giving greater weight to jump amplitude in the event.

Here's the best standings for quadless men at the junior level since 2016:
2019 - Camden Pulkinen was 8th
2018 - Artur Danielian earned Silver, Matteo Rizzo earned Bronze
2017 - Kevin Aymoz was 7th
2016 - Tomoki Hiwatashi earned Bronze

Top Contenders - Junior Ladies
Neither Khromykh nor Valieva have quads listed on their planned content(which I found out after I started writing this thread). If they do go for their quads then Daria Usacheva and Haein Lee are the main contenders here. Seoyeong Wi has a 191 PB. There are actually quite a few skaters in the 170-190 range if these were to all struggle.

Top Contenders - Junior Men
Everyone at the JGPF was attempting quads. It think it's a bit unlikely someone without a quad medals. Here's a list of skaters attempting 3As but no quads according to the planned content and have a personal best above 200:
Mark Gorodnitsky
Sihyeong Lee
Nikolaj Majorov
Ivan Shmuratko
Ilia Malinin
Maxim Naumov (206 at US nationals)

These have PBs in the 180s: Alexander Lebedev, Basar Oktar


Top Contenders - Senior Ladies
Mostly using the season's best list, it seems the top contenders are:
Mariah Bell
Brady Tannell
Satoko Miyahara (TBH, I'd be a bit surprised if she was above Bell or Tannell at this point)

(Wakaba Higuchi attempted a 3A in the FS at the 4CC.)
Yelim Kim

Top Contenders - Senior Men
Jason Brown has (mostly unsuccessfully) been going for a quad lately, but were he to not attempt one he would easily win this.

Mostly using the season's best list and Euro/4CC protocols, it seems the top contenders are:
Deniss Vasiļjevs
(Gabriele Frangipani did not do a quad at Euros but has one listed for World Junior)
(Han Yan will not be there, but I'd like to mention him since he scored pretty high at 4CC without a quad)

TBH, Vasiļjevs is the clear favorite here. If he falters badly, some of the skaters doing both junior and senior worlds could contend.
Sihyeong Lee
Nikolaj Majorov
Ivan Shmuratko

I think it would be great if the top skater at every Jr/Sr worlds who doesn't have a quad for men/quad 3A for ladies were given special recognition. And then in every even numbered year(the Olympic year ideally at the Olympics and mid cycle year when there's no team trophy) a special competition would be put on that's tech limited on rotations. And I think it would be a good idea to give greater weight to jump amplitude in those competitions.

 

[Mathman]

I don't have any names to contribute, but I am not enthusiastic about a no-quad competition. I would worry that it might turn out to be just something to make fun of, like a "shorties" basketball league where no one over 5 ft 8 can participate. It can be fun for the players as a recreation, but would it be successful as a spectator sport?

 

[4everchan]

gogo just grew a lot... at his last event, he didn't attempt any quads... we will see though.. his planned content says he will be quaddering

 

[NaVi]

I don't have any names to contribute, but I am not enthusiastic about a no-quad competition. I would worry that it might turn out to be just something to make fun of, like a "shorties" basketball league where no one over 5 ft 8 can participate. It can be fun for the players as a recreation, but would it be successful as a spectator sport?

It's just a sub competition at Worlds and then (potentially) a separate competition once every 2 years... just enough to justify it potentially being put in the Olympics. And if you give extra weight to jump amplitude at those separate competitions then it's just as "athletic" as measuring rotations while giving a little more weight to artistry.

 

[KOBOT37]

Any successful attempt of making artistry more important to the sport than it is right now will turn sport into an on-ice version of ballet.

And age limit wont change anything either, at best (or worst, depends on perspective) it wont change anything and instead of 15 years old jumping machines dominating the sport we will have 18 years old jumping machines dominating the sport and quitting at 20-22 instead of 18-20. And at worst it will turn into reverse handball and basketball, with 160cm> ~40kg or less grown ups dominating the sport.


if we find out that 'grown up' 'body types' can't compete with short people at FS, FS needs to go full boxing and introduce height categories.

For example like this(For Ladies):

140cm> Ultra FLyheight
140-145cm Flyheight
145-150cm Middle Flyheight.
150-155 cm Super Flyheight.
155-160cm light-height.
160-165 super light-height.
165-170 Junior Middleheight
170-175 Middleheight
175-180 Supper Middleheight.
180-185cm Light MatureSkating™Height.
185+ MatureSkating™Height

Obviously only these with higher height can compete in the lower height classes, for example,say Maiia Kromykh may be Junnior Middleheight but if she desires she can compete and hold championship titles (also, what about giving blades to champions? Boxing gives belts..) in say, Super light-height or even super flyheight.

add +10cm for men and we are a go

 

[icetug]

It was not long ago, in 2015, when Deniss Vasiljevs was 7th overall and Andrew Torgashev was 6th in FS (10th overall) at the JrWorlds. Both of them not only had no quads, but even no 3A. Quadless Shoma Uno won over Boyang Jin who introduced 3 quads. Quadless Sota Yamamoto won over Nathan Chen who was 4th in spite of 2 landed quads.

As long as the skaters with superior skating skills can win over those of harder technical content - I see no reason to complain and don't need to put the first group into any separate competition. Problem starts when some FS fans claim that no quads means "recreation" or "something to make fun of". And the real danger appears when any fan can agree on two-season long career as a standard for modern sport.

 

[lariko]

There seems to be more competitions at lower levels than there is interest in the sport as far as I can tell. I would have understood adding extra categories if the sport was booming, but in most countries anyone who is notable, even without the highest tech content, already gains the access to the international stage.

But we already have Ice Dance taking up 25% of the competition time, and pair skaters also rarerly do 3A. So, if you want to watch skaters skating without the high level jumps, there are three disciplines that are out there if you add synchronized skating.

Why twine singles, particularly when most countries would struggle to produce two, let alone four competitors. There is already 40+ entries...

 

[NaVi]

There seems to be more competitions at lower levels than there is interest in the sport as far as I can tell. I would have understood adding extra categories if the sport was booming, but in most countries anyone who is notable, even without the highest tech content, already gains the access to the international stage.

All this proposal does does is:

1. Give recognition to the best men's skater without a quad and ladies skater without a 3A/quad at worlds.
2. And OPTIONALLY, one competition every other year that is tech limited that could potentially give greater weight to jump amplitude. This could potentially be an Olympic event.

It should be compared to events like the Universiade, Youth Olympic Games, and the European Youth Olympic Festival. Interest in those events has picked up over the time I've been paying attention.

FWIW and OT, speaking of the EYOF... I think it would be nice for development purposes if there were a European championship event for juniors and advance novices every year. There's no need to repeat EYOF though so I'd use the same entry rules which restrict just one entry per country as a kind of means to keep Russia from completely dominating it.

 

[lariko]

But why? Why turn a lack of achievement in a badge of honor? The best in the also run group? That’s condescending. they all get their SB, PB, rank etc. It’s plenty of metrics to collect. They don’t need participation ribbons too.

What if the quadless guy medals? He gets two? Vs the guy with quads, so he is by some bizarre logic more accomplished? Kutovoy has neither 3A nor quad, and he won bronze in JGP event. Valieva won JgPF without ultra moves... is she now the double gold?

What if they intended a quad but doubled or popped it? Still counted as quadless? Do they have to stay away from a quad in training as well to preserve their purity?

It sounds like some sort of scheme to give medals to the guys who don’t medal... AU par with your suggestion to ‘keep Russia from dominating’. Well, why? Russian kids skate like mad. But in the name of fiction we’ll keep them swimming in the national bloodbath when they can outskate their peers in other countries and pretend they can’t? Is it truly turning the competition international if the same kids take on the flags of the Soviet republics?

And in seniors, how is that better to add this odd rule to do gods know what, but keep the rules that stop Tuktamysheva or Medvedeva from being in the Worlds? Or won’t allow us to see both Nguyen and Messing?

I am in favour of less of WWF in figure skating rather than more. Why even have the rules and the judges if all we want is to find a cheating way around them so someone charismatic could somehow also win? This sounds like my daughter during Olympics, she was 11, and she liked Boyang b/c of Star Wars, but since it was unfair to take medals away from other athletes she demanded a platinum one added.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I believe this is the first year 3+ ladies are trying 3A or quads at senior Worlds. Last year there was Rika (3A) and Elizabet (4S), while in 1991 it was Tonya and Midori (both 3A). So it's taken almost 30 years to go from two to three.

EDIT: Never mind. In 1992 we had Tonya, Midori, and Surya (4T) at the Olympics.

 

[Skater Boy]

Of the current skaters without a quad for men I would have to say Jason Brown is the class of the quadless if you accept he has not landed a quad in competition though has done many probably in practice. I would add Roman Sadovsky but he has landed quads I believe. For the ladies I would say Alina Zagitova, Evgenia Medeveda, Satoko Miyahara, Gabby Daleman, Bradie Tennel, mariah bell.

 

[Elucidus]

Paralympic Games are not popular, aren't they? Then why trying to introduce a discipline for people with limited abilities which nobody is going to watch? People likes to watch sport events exactly because they like to watch fight between strongest people in the world. That's the whole idea behind competitive sport, isn't it?
If they want to watch something else - they are going to watch something else - i.e. musicals, ballets, theatrical plays etc. Any 4 minute fs program - despite how brilliant it can be - can't compare to any many-hour ballet performance with lot of actors for people who seek artistry first of all. Trying to sell something from sport category - to auditory of culture category is bound to fail :confused2: And any sport fan won't be interested in such limited competition either - because competitors are not strongest there. It will be similar in popularity to B-level competitions like Warsaw Cup or Minsk Cup were, for example - where Kurakova and Guliakova became winners, as far as I remember. I bet topic starter didn't even bother to watch these events either

 

[lariko]

Of the current skaters without a quad for men I would have to say Jason Brown is the class of the quadless if you accept he has not landed a quad in competition though has done many probably in practice. I would add Roman Sadovsky but he has landed quads I believe. For the ladies I would say Alina Zagitova, Evgenia Medeveda, Satoko Miyahara, Gabby Daleman, Bradie Tennel, mariah bell.

Sadovsky landed 4S with a positive GoE separately and in combination in Nationals. Internationally, he landed 4S with a higher positive GoE in NKH. His quad was fully rotated in the combo there as well, but he UR the triple.

 

[NaVi]

Rotations in the air is not the end all and be all of "athleticism" and "sport". That's not sustainable. Figure skating must find new vectors of competition. New ways of competing. A competition that competes on jump amplitude could be just as interesting as one that competes on rotations.

It will be similar in popularity to B-level competitions like Warsaw Cup or Minsk Cup were, for example - where Kurakova and Guliakova became winners, as far as I remember. I bet topic starter didn't even bother to watch these events either

I bet you don't know what you're talking about with regards to me or much of anything. I have a tab pinned in my browser to the figure skating season wikipedia page so I can at least keep up with all these competitions. I watched Zagitova do her elements live in her local Zhuk qualifier before she went to Eteri... I know obscure competitions.

 

[lariko]

Rotations in the air is not the end all and be all of "athleticism" and "sport". That's not sustainable. Figure skating must find new vectors of competition. New ways of competing. A competition that competes on jump amplitude could be just as interesting as one that competes on rotations.



I bet you don't know what you're talking about with regards to me or much of anything. I have a tab pinned in my browser to the figure skating season wikipedia page so I can at least keep up with all these competitions. I watched Zagitova do her elements live in her local Zhuk qualifier before she went to Eteri... I know obscure competitions.

That’s fine, they all have plenty of tools in their toolbox, bring in metric on ice coverage, average speed etc, tie as many of the scores in the pcs table to measurable parameters, etc. But everyone must compete to the same set of rules, explicable and measurable rules, don’t campaign to double reward anyone, no matter who you personally like just now, and don’t knock down the athletes for excellence. That extra rotation in the air is an achievement, a rare one even in gentlemen division. There is a reason why it is a highly scored element and why fewer can perform it than triples and doubles. It’s a measure of expertise to be able to complete it and have stamina to go at speed, smoothly, have hands above the heart while at it, and demonstrate flexibility, and stay on time with music, etc.

Again, less WWF, more sport, more verifiably fair.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Rotations in the air is not the end all and be all of "athleticism" and "sport". That's not sustainable. Figure skating must find new vectors of competition. New ways of competing. A competition that competes on jump amplitude could be just as interesting as one that competes on rotations.

Jumps are the hardest elements in figure skating, as far as skaters attempting moves that are beyond their comfort zone go. Sure, other elements are also difficult and we see occasional mistakes on spins and footwork, but the quality of those don't vary all that much depending on whether the skater is having a good day or a bad day. Scoring elements primarily on attributes the average person can't observe, like small differences in jump amplitude, doesn't seem very fan-friendly.

 

[DreamSkates]

Rotations in the air is not the end all and be all of "athleticism" and "sport". That's not sustainable. Figure skating must find new vectors of competition. New ways of competing. A competition that competes on jump amplitude could be just as interesting as one that competes on rotations.


.

The Japanese show the height and length of jumps. That should be considered in the GOE. What would be "new ways" of competing?
Also, should rotations begin whenever, or when a skater is already off the ground? Is there such as thing as prerotation?
(I am new to this forum so maybe it was discussed elsewhere).

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

The Japanese show the height and length of jumps. That should be considered in the GOE.

I think it would be something useful for the judges to see, just to understand their own biases as far as favoring certain skaters to the extent that they view elements as better than they actually are. I wouldn't mandate certain height/distance measurements to achieve features because that would really complicate the scoring system further, as every jump might need it's own standard of "good" height and distance (i.e. no one would expect a good 2A to have the same height and distance as a good 3A).

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

The Japanese show the height and length of jumps. That should be considered in the GOE. What would be "new ways" of competing?
Also, should rotations begin whenever, or when a skater is already off the ground? Is there such as thing as prerotation?
(I am new to this forum so maybe it was discussed elsewhere).

With IceScope it's rather subjective where the cameraperson starts the takeoff and the landing. It really is inaccurate. Also note that GOE is a subjective call for great height/distance. It would take forever to calculate the metrics of every jump and the accuracy isn't exactly there yet. I also think if you started measuring height/distance and turning it into GOE, then skaters would stop doing transitions into their jumps because obviously they would want to maintain speed to get the biggest/longest jump possible.

Pre-rotation might have been mentioned once or twice on this forum.

(P.s. Welcome! )

As for the topic: Jason Brown & Satoko Miyahara would probably be my picks.

I think it would be something useful for the judges to see, just to understand their own biases as far as favoring certain skaters to the extent that they view elements as better than they actually are. I wouldn't mandate certain height/distance measurements to achieve features because that would really complicate the scoring system further, as every jump might need it's own standard of "good" height and distance (i.e. no one would expect a good 2A to have the same height and distance as a good 3A).

The thing is, are they really going to cross-compare the differences for every skater (with different layouts, mind you)?

Basing GOE off of measured height/distance would completely ruin it. Height/distance on jumps is only one feature of a figure skating program. It's not like air time trampoline or freestyle skiing where the "routine" is much simpler and shorter, and more easily measured. There's just way too much variability in a figure skating program to allow for more points on jump amplitude.

 

[NaVi]

Top Contenders - Junior Men
Everyone at the JGPF was attempting quads. It think it's a bit unlikely someone without a quad medals. Here's a list of skaters attempting 3As but no quads according to the planned content and have a personal best above 200:
Mark Gorodnitsky
Sihyeong Lee
Nikolaj Majorov
Ivan Shmuratko
Ilia Malinin
Maxim Naumov (206 at US nationals)

These have PBs in the 180s: Alexander Lebedev, Basar Oktar

And Maxim Naumov will be the best here without a quad. He was awesome, but the rest of those listed here were kind of messy.

Just to repeat what I've been saying, I think it's worth recognizing the best quadless men's program. It will make the 3rd and 2nd groups more interesting. Give some at the lower end something to work for when they know they don't have a chance at the top. It might nudge people from trying quads they're not really able to do.