Boots for a better turn out

[SkateMomVancouver]

My daughter’s coach is asking her to get a different boots as my daughter cannot point her toes well. Her old coach said the same thing too. I have asked for a clarification and the toe point is more about turn out and extension. My daughter currently uses Riedell Bronze Star and loves it. She has a tendency to tie her laces tight.

FYI, she tried on Edeas at a skate shops few years ago, she did not like the feel of it maybe because it was so different from Jackson boots she had back then. While I would like to solve the turn out problem, I don’t want to purchase boots that do not fit her well. She has narrow heels and Jackson boots used to create bumps on her heels and ankles. Her height is 5 ft, wiring’s 96 lbs. She is working on double axel and triple jumps.

Would switching to Edeas or Risport help her have a better turn out or could it be just her technique issue? Which brand and model should she pick?

 

[Diana Delafield]

My daughter’s coach is asking her to get a different boots as my daughter cannot point her toes well. Her old coach said the same thing too. I have asked for a clarification and the toe point is more about turn out and extension. My daughter currently uses Riedell Bronze Star and loves it. She has a tendency to tie her laces tight.

FYI, she tried on Edeas at a skate shops few years ago, she did not like the feel of it maybe because it was so different from Jackson boots she had back then. While I would like to solve the turn out problem, I don’t want to purchase boots that do not fit her well. She has narrow heels and Jackson boots used to create bumps on her heels and ankles. Her height is 5 ft, wiring’s 96 lbs. She is working on double axel and triple jumps.

Would switching to Edeas or Risport help her have a better turn out or could it be just her technique issue? Which brand and model should she pick?

If you're in Vancouver, are you shopping at Cyclone Taylor? I've shopped there for many years; I'm now living in Richmond but they're just over the Oak St bridge from my home. Depending on the shape of the rest of her foot, they have a wide selection of Risports as well as the other brands. (I wear Risport RF1s myself, and had Riedell Silver Star boots for a while.) You can trust their fitters to steer your daughter in the best brand direction for her foot shape and the best model for her age and technical level.

Her coaches know her better, but in the abstract I'd say to emphasize ballet classes for her turnout. I drop in to Richmond Academy of Dance for barre classes, but there are other equally good schools if you're in another part of the Greater Vancouver area.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Risport. And I agree with looking at getting her involved in barre classes.

 

[SkateMomVancouver]

If you're in Vancouver, are you shopping at Cyclone Taylor? I've shopped there for many years; I'm now living in Richmond but they're just over the Oak St bridge from my home. Depending on the shape of the rest of her foot, they have a wide selection of Risports as well as the other brands. (I wear Risport RF1s myself, and had Riedell Silver Star boots for a while.) You can trust their fitters to steer your daughter in the best brand direction for her foot shape and the best model for her age and technical level.

Her coaches know her better, but in the abstract I'd say to emphasize ballet classes for her turnout. I drop in to Richmond Academy of Dance for barre classes, but there are other equally good schools if you're in another part of the Greater Vancouver area.

Thank you for your response. Do you think it’s more of a technique issue then? She does ballet off-ice at her club and she also dances every day at her school senior dance company.

I usually shop at Skater’s Edge as I know them well but I wanted to do my homework first and research what boots should I buy if Riedell does not work for my daughter in terms of turn out.

 

[SkateMomVancouver]

Risport. And I agree with looking at getting her involved in barre classes.

Thank you. As I mentioned in my response to Diana, my daughter is getting barre classes.

I don’t have any experience with Risport, could you kindly tell me why you recommend Risport? Does it offer looser fit around ankles and offer sizing for narrow heels?

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Turnout and extension should happen mostly from the hips and core. I don't really see how it is related to the choice of boot (which, in terms of aesthetics, only influences toe point).

Since you said she does ballet already - does she spend much time practicing ice dance or skating skills? I came to skating from a ballet background, and I feel that off-ice habits like turnout and extension don't always get carried onto the ice unless you consciously apply them while working on things like basic stroking and edgework.

Also, while I'm not familiar with the content of ballet classes geared towards skaters, dancers in a 'team competition'-type environment don't always have strong ballet technique. I don't know if this is the case, but it might be worth searching out more 'pure' ballet school.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Thank you. As I mentioned in my response to Diana, my daughter is getting barre classes.

I don’t have any experience with Risport, could you kindly tell me why you recommend Risport? Does it offer looser fit around ankles and offer sizing for narrow heels?

As an ice dancer I'm going to tell you that turnout and "Toe Point" come from conscious control of hips and your core.
I said Risport over Edea b/c Edea has a looser feel in the ankles and heels. What is your daughters foot type, that would help me better suggest a brand for her. Also, are her arches very high/high/normal/low/flat?


ETA: I just saw @Flying Feijoa and I said something similar about toe point.

 

[SkateMomVancouver]

Turnout and extension should happen mostly from the hips and core. I don't really see how it is related to the choice of boot (which, in terms of aesthetics, only influences toe point).

Since you said she does ballet already - does she spend much time practicing ice dance or skating skills? I came to skating from a ballet background, and I feel that off-ice habits like turnout and extension don't always get carried onto the ice unless you consciously apply them while working on things like basic stroking and edgework.

Also, while I'm not familiar with the content of ballet classes geared towards skaters, dancers in a 'team competition'-type environment don't always have strong ballet technique. I don't know if this is the case, but it might be worth searching out more 'pure' ballet school.

Thank you. Yes, I was also wondering how would the choice of boots matter to turn out and extensions. Her friends have beautiful extensions in Jackson boots. I’ve spoken with my daughter and asked why does her coach think she needs a different boots. Her coach thinks her Riedell boots ride up high on ankle which make her difficult to stretch her Achilles’ tendon. I will talk to her coach in a couple of days about this matter.

My daughter does practice skating skills with ice dance coach and she has passed some of Star 7 and 8 pattern dance assessments. She just hasn’t dance anymore as her current club doesn’t offer dance lessons.

Anyway, thank you for your insights, it will help me when I discuss the matter with the coach.

 

[SkateMomVancouver]

As an ice dancer I'm going to tell you that turnout and "Toe Point" come from conscious control of hips and your core.
I said Risport over Edea b/c Edea has a looser feel in the ankles and heels. What is your daughters foot type, that would help me better suggest a brand for her. Also, are her arches very high/high/normal/low/flat?


ETA: I just saw @Flying Feijoa and I said something similar about toe point.

Thank you. I have a feeling that my daughter is not making conscious effort to have a good extension but I will talk to her coach in a couple of days to find more about the matter. According to my daughter, her coach thinks her current boots are not letting her stretch her Achilles’ tendon.

My daughter’s foot type is a Greek and she has a flat feet with pronation. She uses custom orthotics for her Riedell boots.

Thank you

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Thank you. I have a feeling that my daughter is not making conscious effort to have a good extension but I will talk to her coach in a couple of days to find more about the matter. According to my daughter, her coach thinks her current boots are not letting her stretch her Achilles’ tendon.

My daughter’s foot type is a Greek and she has a flat feet with pronation. She uses custom orthotics for her Riedell boots.

Thank you

Flat feet with pronation, have her look at RF line of Risport. That is what I wear and I have Greek Feet with supination.

 

[SkateMomVancouver]

Flat feet with pronation, have her look at RF line of Risport. That is what I wear and I have Greek Feet with supination.

Thank you. I went to Risport site and read their catalogue. RF Pro 3 is probably suitable for my daughter. It’s rated for double and triple jumps while RF Elite 1 is for triples and quads. thank you for your help!

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Thank you. I went to Risport site and read their catalogue. RF Pro 3 is probably suitable for my daughter. It’s rated for double and triple jumps while RF Elite 1 is for triples and quads. thank you for your help!

Your daughters situation is difficult, with her being only 96 lbs I would like to tell you that RF3 Pro would be fine, but with her already doing 2 axel and triples I would suggest the RF1 elite in that case, as I think it would be better for her currently and her future progress.

May I ask what blade she is using?

 

[SkateMomVancouver]

Your daughters situation is difficult, with her being only 96 lbs I would like to tell you that RF3 Pro would be fine, but with her already doing 2 axel and triples I would suggest the RF1 elite in that case, as I think it would be better for her currently and her future progress.

May I ask what blade she is using?

Thank you. She is using MK Phantom blades.

 

[Diana Delafield]

Your daughters situation is difficult, with her being only 96 lbs I would like to tell you that RF3 Pro would be fine, but with her already doing 2 axel and triples I would suggest the RF1 elite in that case, as I think it would be better for her currently and her future progress.

May I ask what blade she is using?

I would agree with that. I wear the RF1 Elite boot even though I don't weigh much more than your daughter does and am losing my triples as I get older. However, I still skate pairs just for fun with my longtime pairs partner and I need the RF1 stiffness for landing throws and jump combinations that include double Axels. And I also now use the MK Phantom blades (on the advice of @Ic3Rabbit , those blades not having been invented when I was in competition in the early 1980s). If your daughter were my granddaughter, I'd have her trying the Risport RF1 boots already.

 

[Diana Delafield]

Thank you. Yes, I was also wondering how would the choice of boots matter to turn out and extensions. Her friends have beautiful extensions in Jackson boots. I’ve spoken with my daughter and asked why does her coach think she needs a different boots. Her coach thinks her Riedell boots ride up high on ankle which make her difficult to stretch her Achilles’ tendon. I will talk to her coach in a couple of days about this matter.

My daughter does practice skating skills with ice dance coach and she has passed some of Star 7 and 8 pattern dance assessments. She just hasn’t dance anymore as her current club doesn’t offer dance lessons.

Anyway, thank you for your insights, it will help me when I discuss the matter with the coach.

I missed this part yesterday evening as I was out, but I also wondered why her coach would say a change in boot style would make a difference in her extension and turn-out. A case could be made for lowcut dance boots enhancing toe pointing, but they would be wrong for a singles skater doing triple jumps. As far as I know, it's flexibility and the leg strength to hold the extended position that counts, not her boot style. That's where a regular barre class at a school that trains potential professional dancers would be more beneficial, I think. (And you can buy a small portable barre to use at home. I have one set up in my spare bedroom in front of a full length mirror.)

 

[Query]

In theory, you can create a little outwards toe point by twisting through the leg, foot and ankle. But that might not be altogether healthy, especially when it comes to supporting your weight on turned out feet. But I was taught by ice dancers to seek an outwards toe point at the end of forwards swing rolls. Since I don't have much hip turnout, and don't seem able to develop it, to some extent I used that twist.

You could also style a boot to make it LOOK like you have more outwards toe point, by making the outside front of the boot thicker. I don't know of anyone who does that. And it might make other postures like weird.

It is quite common to use boots with cut down backs so you can use more of the other type of toe point, to the front, which is often advocated in many figure skating moves (including at the same time as the outwards toe point at the end of those forward swing rolls). But of course, that reduces the support the boot might give on jump landings. As with many things, there is a trade-off.

Just like there is a trade-off to developing a lot of hip turnout: to some extent it destabilizes the hip, and increases the likelihood of dislocation injuries. But it is expected in figure skating, as in many forms of performance dance.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

In theory, you can create a little outwards toe point by twisting through the leg, foot and ankle. But that might not be altogether healthy, especially when it comes to supporting your weight on turned out feet. But I was taught by ice dancers to seek an outwards toe point at the end of forwards swing rolls. Since I don't have much hip turnout, and don't seem able to develop it, to some extent I used that twist.

You could also style a boot to make it LOOK like you have more outwards toe point, by making the outside front of the boot thicker. I don't know of anyone who does that. And it might make other postures like weird.

It is quite common to use boots with cut down backs so you can use more of the other type of toe point, to the front, which is often advocated in many figure skating moves (including at the same time as the outwards toe point at the end of those forward swing rolls). But of course, that reduces the support the boot might give on jump landings. As with many things, there is a trade-off.

Just like there is a trade-off to developing a lot of hip turnout: to some extent it destabilizes the hip, and increases the likelihood of dislocation injuries. But it is expected in figure skating, as in many forms of performance dance.

Hip turnout is actually good and doesn't cause more chance of injury than trying to do half of the things listed above and skating with closed hips just doesn't work in figure skating. Proper hip turn out really isn't that hard and ice dancers should be teaching you that, not some weird thing that will possibly injure you. What kind of ice dancer even teaches that!!?!

 

[SkateMomVancouver]

I would agree with that. I wear the RF1 Elite boot even though I don't weigh much more than your daughter does and am losing my triples as I get older. However, I still skate pairs just for fun with my longtime pairs partner and I need the RF1 stiffness for landing throws and jump combinations that include double Axels. And I also now use the MK Phantom blades (on the advice of @Ic3Rabbit , those blades not having been invented when I was in competition in the early 1980s). If your daughter were my granddaughter, I'd have her trying the Risport RF1 boots already.

While she hasn’t really landed double axel or triples yet, she is getting stronger everyday. So, I will see what

I would agree with that. I wear the RF1 Elite boot even though I don't weigh much more than your daughter does and am losing my triples as I get older. However, I still skate pairs just for fun with my longtime pairs partner and I need the RF1 stiffness for landing throws and jump combinations that include double Axels. And I also now use the MK Phantom blades (on the advice of @Ic3Rabbit , those blades not having been invented when I was in competition in the early 1980s). If your daughter were my granddaughter, I'd have her trying the Risport RF1 boots already.

It took a while for my daughter to get used to Phantoms but she is liking the blades now We will see what her coach and fitter will say. Did your blade size change when you change from Silver Star to RF1?

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

While she hasn’t really landed double axel or triples yet, she is getting stronger everyday. So, I will see what

I'm confused then and going to guess that @Diana Delafield is as well, since in your first post you said your daughter is working on double axels and triple jumps.

My daughter’s coach is asking her to get a different boots as my daughter cannot point her toes well. Her old coach said the same thing too. I have asked for a clarification and the toe point is more about turn out and extension. My daughter currently uses Riedell Bronze Star and loves it. She has a tendency to tie her laces tight.

FYI, she tried on Edeas at a skate shops few years ago, she did not like the feel of it maybe because it was so different from Jackson boots she had back then. While I would like to solve the turn out problem, I don’t want to purchase boots that do not fit her well. She has narrow heels and Jackson boots used to create bumps on her heels and ankles. Her height is 5 ft, wiring’s 96 lbs. She is working on double axel and triple jumps.

Would switching to Edeas or Risport help her have a better turn out or could it be just her technique issue? Which brand and model should she pick?

 

[SkateMomVancouver]

I missed this part yesterday evening as I was out, but I also wondered why her coach would say a change in boot style would make a difference in her extension and turn-out. A case could be made for lowcut dance boots enhancing toe pointing, but they would be wrong for a singles skater doing triple jumps. As far as I know, it's flexibility and the leg strength to hold the extended position that counts, not her boot style. That's where a regular barre class at a school that trains potential professional dancers would be more beneficial, I think. (And you can buy a small portable barre to use at home. I have one set up in my spare bedroom in front of a full length mirror.)

Risport RF1 and RF3 seem to allow skaters to have a deep movement and backward, so maybe that makes it easier to do turn out? I don’t know, but I will talk to her coach tomorrow.