Campbell's International FS Classic

[hockeyfan228]

Also congrats to Kimmie Meissner who impressed me mightily when I saw her in person at COI last spring. At least for me, Meissner is one of those skaters who looks much stronger in person than on TV. She has gorgeous, unaffected arms; overall, her skating has the kind of authority that comes from having a strong center, deep knees, and well centered edges; plus she stretches out her moves, so she amplifies her choreography. Like Vash (see his Detailed Campbell's Review thread), I think Meissner will be a major force if she avoids serious injury and the skating gods are otherwise with her. Her fundamental technique both from the skates down and the skates up is superb and at least I found her captivating at COI doing a relatively simple program. I think she's got goods like nobody's business.

My only beef with Meissner is the lack of power. I saw her live at US Nationals -- and it wasn't her fault that the judges went ga-ga over a flawed 3A, she did her job and made the attempt -- and her jumps were small both in height and amplitude and got smaller as the program went on. Her last combo was barely off the ice.

But her basic technique is solid, and she has a very unaffected, clean style. She really doesn't have to hide anything or compensate, and with a little strength, she should be formidable in the future.

As for predictions in the 2006 Olympics, without a strong showing in international competition in 2005, I think the odds are against her landing on the podium in her first major senior international competition. She doesn't have a style that the international judges love, like Cohen's, and I think her only reasonable shot at the podium is to skate towards the end of the order and to land a clean 3A in the SP and to end up in the final group of six. If she's in the third group for the LP, I don't think she has a chance. If she's in the second-to-last group, I think it will take major meltdowns by just about everyone.

 

[Mathman]

How Kimmie can win in Torino...

Or...In the skate gods we trust, triple Axel or bust!

3Lz/3T/2Lo
3A
3F
3S
(second half, for bonus points)
3F/3Lo
3Lz
With 7 triples in the bag, including a triple Axel, her last jumping pass is
2A if she has hit everything, 3Lo or 3T if she missed on the second jump of either of her combos, and a second 3 Axel attempt (a la Midori) if she doubled her first.

MM

 

[Tonichelle]

Or...In the skate gods we trust, triple Axel or bust!

3Lz/3T/2Lo
3A
3F
3S
(second half, for bonus points)
3F/3Lo
3Lz
With 7 triples in the bag, including a triple Axel, her last jumping pass is
2A if she has hit everything, 3Lo or 3T if she missed on the second jump of either of her combos, and a second 3 Axel attempt (a la Midori) if she doubled her first.

MM

BUT depending on where she places in the short program would she go for the 3A? She might play it safe if she's in the top 3 or 4 after the short

if she makes it to the Olys that is.... (will she be old enough?)

 

[Mathman]

She will be old enough, just barely. So far, with Jenny Kirk dropping out and with Bebe and Emily not yet having shown anything extraordinary this year, plus with a question mark over Michelle, I think Kimmie has at least a 50-50 chance of making the U.S. Olympic team. (Go Amber!)

If she gets there, objectively speaking, I do not see any posibility for her to get close to a medal without the triple Axel. Her presentation skills are still far below any of the top ladies. IMO she would have to do something spectacular to catch the judges' attention enough to get satisfactory PC scores. (As we know, there's nothing like a triple Axel or a triple Lutz/triple loop to garner top scores in transitions and choreography!)

In fact, IMHO her best shot to be in the last group to skate at Torino is to do a triple Axel in the SP.

A triple Axel (like a quad for the men) solves all of your Zayak problems. You automatically work in an extra triple without worrying about how many combos you've done or which jumps you've repeated.

Plus, if you've got it, flaunt it!

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat."

MM

 

[Tonichelle]

but if she fell on the 3A her chances would probably be shot if she attempted it in the SP...
or would she somehow be saved with how the CoP works? (I doubt it as she doesn't have the strong PCS yet)

 

[Doggygirl]

but if she fell on the 3A her chances would probably be shot if she attempted it in the SP...
or would she somehow be saved with how the CoP works? (I doubt it as she doesn't have the strong PCS yet)

IMO, Kimmie has nothing to lose. She has little liklihood of ending up "at the top" at this stage of her career by "playing it safe." I would think her best shot would be taking risks, and IMO her best "risks" are a 3A and/or 3/3's. I doubt very much that "Team Kimmie" is even thinking "Podium" for this Oly year. I suspect they are thinking "Statement for 2010" and 3A and/or 3/3's are IMO Kimmie's best "statements" for this season.

Just my 2 cents.

DG

 

[CDMM1991]

it could just be that his new costume isn't ready yet and the old one was the best one he had to fit the music

Yeah I thought that too Toni

 

[Vash01]

I don't think Kimmie will go for the 3A in the SP.

Reower in the jumps- I think it is a matter of developing power. Kristi Yamaguchi worked with weights to get some power in her jumps, which were consistent but small. Of course she could not compare with Midori Ito's height and power which were natural. Kimmie can develop some power and some height in her jumps, and of course some artistry. It may or may not happen by Feb.2006 but she has the consistency on her side. If there are a lot of nervous skaters that keep making mistakes, she could just jump in through the cracked door. Also in a couple of years her body will naturally develop some power.

 

[antmanb]

IMO, Kimmie has nothing to lose. She has little liklihood of ending up "at the top" at this stage of her career by "playing it safe." I would think her best shot would be taking risks, and IMO her best "risks" are a 3A and/or 3/3's. I doubt very much that "Team Kimmie" is even thinking "Podium" for this Oly year. I suspect they are thinking "Statement for 2010" and 3A and/or 3/3's are IMO Kimmie's best "statements" for this season.

Just my 2 cents.

DG

Just out of interest do the ladies have the option of double or triple solo axel like the men do in the SP or do they have to do a double axel?

If they are allowed to go for a solo triple axel as their axel jumps then Kimmie would be at a distinct advantage - even a fall on a fully rotated triple axel gets you4.5 which is considerably better than the 3.3 you get for a base value double axel.

Just going off on a hypothetical the base level fro jumps for a skater doing 3Lz/3T, 3F and 2A is: 18.8, if eg Irina had an SP handed directly from the Gods she might even get a 3Lz/3Lp, 3F and 2A which would get: 19.8. If Kimmie could go for 3Lz/3T, 3F and 3A that would score: 23 if she fell on the triple axel and got the full -3GOE on a fully rotated attempt she'd still get 20 for the jumps alone!

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Ah because the system won't correct your personal bug bear its no longer a sport Ant

lol. OK, OK, I'm nitpicking. But to me a definition is a clear rule in Sports. Only Figure Skating makes these exceptions.:disapp:

Joe

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

If Kimmie makes the Finals in GPs, and she lands on podium at Nats, she will be in the top 10 at Olys - maybe last 6 to skate. JMO.

Joe

 

[antmanb]

lol. OK, OK, I'm nitpicking. But to me a definition is a clear rule in Sports. Only Figure Skating makes these exceptions.:disapp:

Joe

Just being pedantic - i don't think that the jumps are actually defined in the ISU rule book are they? I think they presuppose that everyone knows what the jumps are so in terms of the actual rules - its in black and white the rule is that a change of edge does not change the jump it affects the GOE - there's no relaxing of the rules.

Presumably if you are stickler for the exact definitions then anything short of the full three rotations means any jump should be downgraded to a double since the definition of the triple jump (except the axel) is three full revolutions (ie a full 1280 degree turn) so a 1279 degree turn should not be a triple?

Moving on to my personal bug bear strictly speaking a flying sitspin should do one and half turns in the air with the skater attaining a full sit position at the peak of the jump...none of the current crop of skaters can do one and when its the mandatory flying spin for the junior competitors that never happens!

Ant

 

[mzheng]

So many talks about Kimmie's 3A this thread. Does any one hear or see her practice 3A this season? What I heard, given MS is not in the same state as Kimmie but gossips do travel around the rinks nation wide, she is not doing it that much or consistant given her growing spurt this season that she is more wider now.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Just being pedantic - i don't think that the jumps are actually defined in the ISU rule book are they? I think they presuppose that everyone knows what the jumps are so in terms of the actual rules - its in black and white the rule is that a change of edge does not change the jump it affects the GOE - there's no relaxing of the rules.

Presumably if you are stickler for the exact definitions then anything short of the full three rotations means any jump should be downgraded to a double since the definition of the triple jump (except the axel) is three full revolutions (ie a full 1280 degree turn) so a 1279 degree turn should not be a triple?

Moving on to my personal bug bear strictly speaking a flying sitspin should do one and half turns in the air with the skater attaining a full sit position at the peak of the jump...none of the current crop of skaters can do one and when its the mandatory flying spin for the junior competitors that never happens!

Ant

First para: Interesting. I assumed it was in the rules. I thought one could go to the ISU and find definitions on all the elements. But I understand your point on leniency in Figure Skating. I was just comparing it to other Sports and Diving jumped into my head. Their tricks by definition are scrutinzed to the hilt in judging.

Second para: Yeah, I'm a stickler - anal compulsive hwell: . It just doesn't make sense to say 3 air turns are 3 air turns even if they are not.

Third para: Wow, I didn't know there was a definition for a Flying Sit. A Flying Camel, too? I thought they were just jumpandspin.

Joe

 

[antmanb]

First para: Interesting. I assumed it was in the rules. I thought one could go to the ISU and find definitions on all the elements. But I understand your point on leniency in Figure Skating. I was just comparing it to other Sports and Diving jumped into my head. Their tricks by definition are scrutinzed to the hilt in judging.

Second para: Yeah, I'm a stickler - anal compulsive hwell: . It just doesn't make sense to say 3 air turns are 3 air turns even if they are not.

Third para: Wow, I didn't know there was a definition for a Flying Sit. A Flying Camel, too? I thought they were just jumpandspin.

Joe

Well "definition" is a loose term in this sense - i'm going by the Petkevich book on figure skating which is a coaching tool. The flying sit is the only one that requires a one and half air turn in the "flying" part - in fact i think its the only one that specifies any amount of air spin on it. The camel does not and is often between a half and full turn.

You'll notice that the best deathdrops in the world (Yags and Plush) are so impressive because they hang in the almost upside position for a full turn or more and then finish up in the sit position within the first half turn. The lesser deathdrops tend to be only a half turn in the air.

Ant

 

[cianni]

Answer

I see Kimmie almost every day and yes she does practice the 3/axel every day. The axel will be included if she is landing it clean a good bit of the time the wk. of the comp. She wasnt the wk. of campbells so she didnt include it. I saw her today and her 3/3 are right on all the time didnt catch the axel. I go there almost every day and I report what I see not what I hear.

 

[mzheng]

I see Kimmie almost every day and yes she does practice the 3/axel every day. The axel will be included if she is landing it clean a good bit of the time the wk. of the comp. She wasnt the wk. of campbells so she didnt include it. I saw her today and her 3/3 are right on all the time didnt catch the axel.
.

First, thank you for the answer.

I go there almost every day and I report what I see not what I hear.

Second, Relax, OK? this is only a skating board not a court room.

Finally, I'll continue report what I heard not what I saw (These days I barely go any rinks). For those concerned take it a 'rumore' or what ever.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The nonfans of Kimmie are already ganging up for the Underrotated 3A and this before she even attempts it.

Joe

 

[Doggygirl]

Well "definition" is a loose term in this sense - i'm going by the Petkevich book on figure skating which is a coaching tool. The flying sit is the only one that requires a one and half air turn in the "flying" part - in fact i think its the only one that specifies any amount of air spin on it. The camel does not and is often between a half and full turn.

You'll notice that the best deathdrops in the world (Yags and Plush) are so impressive because they hang in the almost upside position for a full turn or more and then finish up in the sit position within the first half turn. The lesser deathdrops tend to be only a half turn in the air.

Ant

Actually, I think the ISU rules are pretty clear. The "cutoff" for a jump to be considered fully rotated is stated as being no more than 1/4 turn under rotated. That's the technical callers job to catch. The entrances, exits, air postions, difficult entrances, etc, I believe are pretty well defined under the GOE criteria, which is the judge's job to determine. While the judges and/or technical callers may be either making mistakes, or just over looking certain things (possibly flutzing) I do believe the criteria are pretty well laid out there for a subjective sport.

Just my thoughts - I'd be interested to see if others have also read the ISU rules and have different opinions.

DG - from Pittsburgh today.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think most fans are excited for the win, and some fans want to see the skate as live as it can be on TV maybe a week or two later. It puts them in a state of anxiety, I think, to avoid anything that will give away the results within that period. I feel for them because the results may even appear in a local newspaper.

For me, and I am sure for others, the medals are secondary to see other things about the present season's skating so learning the results before seeing the skate on TV is not so terrible.

I'm always interested in seeing skaters' new choreography and how well they have mastered their problems of the previous year. A new piece of technical prowess (like a quad or 3x3) is always a welcome eyeopener.

In Skate America, for example, I've Seen Idora Hegel and Jenna McCorkle in two World Championships. I'd like to see improvements this year. They are both talented enough to improve.

However, SA is an early seasonal skate and I can understand any flubs that happen.

Joe