Caroline Zhang's 2009-10 season
- Thread starter Spun Silver
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Huh? I'm sick of hearing that some people are fast because it comes "naturally to them" Its ridiculous.. There are plenty of smaller skaters who have good basics. Take a look at Tara Lipinski who skated with a ridiculous amount of speed accross the ice. I'd hardly say that looking at Tara that you'd think Tara was more "naturally powerful than Caroline"
Caroline doesn't have good edges. Period. She doesn't need to be big in order to have good edges. I mean Takahiko Kozuka has some of the best basics of all the men, and I'd hardly call him the biggest guy out there. He has the best basics because of hard work-including doing things like training figures. Same goes with Patrick Chan who trains figures too. I remember Meissner who always had great basics-her coach talked about how she made Meissner spend a LOT of time every day in practices doing skating skills drills. Carolina Kostner with her great basics-drills.
And Yu-na Kim always had better basics as Caroline even as a younger skater. Yes her speed improved as she got older and matured but she already had a lot of speed by 2006-2007 season. Yu-na never looked like she was literally walking on the ice.
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Oh my goodness, if she could get Yuka to coach her, that would be heaven. Caroline's positive qualities as a skater combined with what Yuka is most known for would make for an amazing skater.
Yuka's in Michigan, though, and I don't think Caroline will be making a trip there anytime soon.
It's not "ridiculous"! Elite athletes in most sports have natural athletic power, skating is no exception. You don't have to be built *looking* big and powerful to have great strength and power. Tara was a very strong little girl, for her size!
I'm not saying Caroline has great basics, or that she shouldn't work on it really hard to improve it, but I do think that she needs to both rework her basics, and do proper strength training in the gym. You don't need to ridicule my opinion for saying so!
Just ask Yu-na how many hours she spends in the gym, and how her time is organized, and then look at Caroline's schedule!
And here's a quote from a recent interview of Frank Carroll when talking about Mirai:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5hQSOLgzz4GcTJ9jbWno39zgvg3rA
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2009
Actually, I agree with bekalc, it is ridiculous. Proper training on basics early can give you the technique you need to get power and speed. It has very little to do with natural body type and everything about blade placement on ice, edges, and efficiency. Allow me to give you my own example: I'm no natural athlete and first stepped foot on the ice at the ripe old age of 34. After about 6 months and graduating out of group lessons, I then went to privates and did figures, ice dance, stroking and lots and lots of basic edgework. Working only a little bit on freestyle elements jumps and spins for the next 6 months. Before the first year was up, I could power down a full size rink in 2-3 strokes max, and with speed and control right up there with the kids 25 years younger than me. And enough stamina to do lap after lap with footwork for 10-15 minutes straight. It took a lot of work off-ice in the gym as well. And this was an out-of-shape, 5'-3" non-athlete, non-optimum body type carrying a heck of a lot more permanent lard around than Caroline. But I had decent coaches who I gave full license to drill me hard and drill me long, no matter how "boring" it was compared to jumping and spinning.
It's now many years later and while I skate only occasionally, I can still power down the rink in 3-4 strokes and still have people comment on my "good basics." If I could learn this, Caroline can too, if she wants to. The excuse about her body type, lack of natural ability, etc. doesn't wash with me. My guess if you go back to Mirai or Ashley's early training, they did a lot of the hard work necessary to get their speed and power also.
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- Joined
- Nov 22, 2009
Not sure where the root of Caroline's problems come from, but a couple of old articles from 2007 I dug up are enlightening:
http://www.skatetoday.com/articles07/021307.htm and especially note the middle of the article about going coachless during most of her intermediate level, and then this:
Zhang trains on ice for four hours a day, five days a week, plus five hours on Saturday and two to four hours on Sunday. "I don't do very much off ice," she stated. "It's boring. If I have a day off the ice, I get really bored."
And this one from 2007 SA, which contains reference to Caroline and Mingzhu Li's surprise over the downgrades she was getting even back then.
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/21518833
Growth spurt or not, I have to wonder what this girl has been spending her time doing from about 2003-2007 during which time period she first starting doing triples, and again over the past 2 years.
http://www.skatetoday.com/articles07/021307.htm and especially note the middle of the article about going coachless during most of her intermediate level, and then this:
Zhang trains on ice for four hours a day, five days a week, plus five hours on Saturday and two to four hours on Sunday. "I don't do very much off ice," she stated. "It's boring. If I have a day off the ice, I get really bored."
And this one from 2007 SA, which contains reference to Caroline and Mingzhu Li's surprise over the downgrades she was getting even back then.
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/21518833
Growth spurt or not, I have to wonder what this girl has been spending her time doing from about 2003-2007 during which time period she first starting doing triples, and again over the past 2 years.
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- Joined
- May 15, 2009
Spinning requires athleticism and Caroline is a very good spinner. In fact watching her triple loop it is amazing to see how fast Caroline can spin as she barely leaves the ground on this jump and yet still manages to complete three rotations - or she used to before she grew,
That is harder than it looks and I doubt if many other skaters can match Carolin'es spinning speed in the air.
It looks like all of Caroline's muscle power and thrust is being used to achieve rotations and that none of it is going into the vertical aspect of the jump.
Her technique might have worked when she was smaller but it won't work now that she has grown.
Her jumps have no height because her entries into them have no speed. They have no speed because Caroline will fall if she tries to use speed to help achieve more height on her jump. She will probably also fall or pop if she tried to focus her energy to jumping higher rather than spinning faster.
Caroline has perfected this flawed jumping style and it worked for her until she grew. Many skaters with a strong technique would be struggling after the growth spurt Caroline just went through. Michelle grew 2 inches one season and had trouble adjusting to her new height. Caroline just grew about 4-5 inches.
It will be very difficult for Caroline to change and it is possible that even with a better technique she will never be a good, steady jumper. It will probably take two years of hard work to find out with no guarantee that the results will be positive.
I hope she tries because she brings something special and beautiful to the ice.
That is harder than it looks and I doubt if many other skaters can match Carolin'es spinning speed in the air.
It looks like all of Caroline's muscle power and thrust is being used to achieve rotations and that none of it is going into the vertical aspect of the jump.
Her technique might have worked when she was smaller but it won't work now that she has grown.
Her jumps have no height because her entries into them have no speed. They have no speed because Caroline will fall if she tries to use speed to help achieve more height on her jump. She will probably also fall or pop if she tried to focus her energy to jumping higher rather than spinning faster.
Caroline has perfected this flawed jumping style and it worked for her until she grew. Many skaters with a strong technique would be struggling after the growth spurt Caroline just went through. Michelle grew 2 inches one season and had trouble adjusting to her new height. Caroline just grew about 4-5 inches.
It will be very difficult for Caroline to change and it is possible that even with a better technique she will never be a good, steady jumper. It will probably take two years of hard work to find out with no guarantee that the results will be positive.
I hope she tries because she brings something special and beautiful to the ice.
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Sorry for not reading everything. But isn't Caroline's PCS declining, is it? I feel it kind of strange that she was dominant at the junior level if what's happening now is what she gets. She had the same tech issues as a junior, right? What did judges like about her then and what do judges dislike about her now? I'm saying this because it's still the same skater. Have changes in rules affected her a lot as they affected Mao?
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2006
For some reason the ISU Jr results from 06-07 are not opening for me. I could only get detail on the JGP in Taipei. But to give you a general idea:
In her two JGPs, she beat her closest rivals by over 50 pts (La Fuente in Mexico City and Takeda in Taipei). At the JGPF she beat Ashley by 20 points.
In Taipei, Caroline scored 105.06 for her FP.
--Her 59.65 in TCS were for 6 triples (all credited) incl. 3 in combination and only got negative GOEs (-.50) for her two lutzes; otherwise 0 or slightly positive GOEs. She did a level 3 spiral sequence (Nana Takeda did level 4!) and her spins ranged up to level 4. (She got 1.25 GOE for her final lev 4 combo spin which included her amazing and at the time unique pearl spin.)
--Her 45.41 in PCS were in the high 5s for everything but Transitions (5.41).
Now compare what she just did in Canada -- total 77.88 for her FP.
--Only 39.32 for TCS. She only got credited for 3 triples with 2 others getting downgraded to doubles; 1 getting an "e", and 1 not even getting counted because it was "extra." She lost over 4 points in negative GOEs on jumps in addition to her 2 points of deductions for falls. She did do a Lev4 spiral and got 1.80 GOE for it and a final Lev4 combo spin for 1.50 GOE; other spins were Lev3. She's only doing Lev2 footwork, same as Taipei in 2006.
--PCS down to 40.56. Here's a PCS surprise -- her skating skills scores averaged 6.0. Other than that she got 4.20 for Transitions/Footwork, low 5s for Performance and Choreography, and 4.95 for Interpretation (compare Czisny: 7.20; Suzuki and Lacoste, 5.85; McCorkell, 5.05; and her own old self in Taipei, 5.81).
Here's are some glimpses of 14-year-old Caroline in her golden season:
http://video.google.com/videosearch...d=caroline+zhang+2006&vid=7942971992203618286
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coNCT09LYnc
Reviewing all this, it's pretty easy to see why she would be depressed. Especially if she's still putting in those long, lonely hours.
In her two JGPs, she beat her closest rivals by over 50 pts (La Fuente in Mexico City and Takeda in Taipei). At the JGPF she beat Ashley by 20 points.
In Taipei, Caroline scored 105.06 for her FP.
--Her 59.65 in TCS were for 6 triples (all credited) incl. 3 in combination and only got negative GOEs (-.50) for her two lutzes; otherwise 0 or slightly positive GOEs. She did a level 3 spiral sequence (Nana Takeda did level 4!) and her spins ranged up to level 4. (She got 1.25 GOE for her final lev 4 combo spin which included her amazing and at the time unique pearl spin.)
--Her 45.41 in PCS were in the high 5s for everything but Transitions (5.41).
Now compare what she just did in Canada -- total 77.88 for her FP.
--Only 39.32 for TCS. She only got credited for 3 triples with 2 others getting downgraded to doubles; 1 getting an "e", and 1 not even getting counted because it was "extra." She lost over 4 points in negative GOEs on jumps in addition to her 2 points of deductions for falls. She did do a Lev4 spiral and got 1.80 GOE for it and a final Lev4 combo spin for 1.50 GOE; other spins were Lev3. She's only doing Lev2 footwork, same as Taipei in 2006.
--PCS down to 40.56. Here's a PCS surprise -- her skating skills scores averaged 6.0. Other than that she got 4.20 for Transitions/Footwork, low 5s for Performance and Choreography, and 4.95 for Interpretation (compare Czisny: 7.20; Suzuki and Lacoste, 5.85; McCorkell, 5.05; and her own old self in Taipei, 5.81).
Here's are some glimpses of 14-year-old Caroline in her golden season:
http://video.google.com/videosearch...d=caroline+zhang+2006&vid=7942971992203618286
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coNCT09LYnc
Reviewing all this, it's pretty easy to see why she would be depressed. Especially if she's still putting in those long, lonely hours.
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- Joined
- Dec 7, 2005
I don't think it is the changes in the rules that are affecting Caroline's low scores it is her poor technique that has gotten much worse this season and that is why her PC's have gone down this season. Even when she was skating better last season her PC's were mediocre at best. Now for whatever reason (I have read many) her tech ability is failing her and she does not have anything to fall back on. She has not made any progress in her skating and it seems to be going backward instead of forward, and she needs to progress or she will be left in the dust and that is the reality of it.
That said I wish her the best and hope she fixes her issues.
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- Joined
- Dec 28, 2006
Watching Caroline at skate canada over the weekend I felt very depressed. It is almost tragic that a girl who had that muh talent and potential in 2006 that we half wanted to send her to olympic games. I balme her coaching staff and her parents for eitehr teaching her bad technique or else letting her do whatever she wanted on the ice and not sticking to a strict training regime. Obviously all she wanted to do (or was told to do) was do hours of ballet training and do a hyper split. She looks like she never had a MITF coach, I find it hard to believe that she passed senior moves with the way her skating skills are most of the time. MITF coaches do not care if you can do a perfect split in yoru spiral, they want strong edges and glide across the ice.
I don't know things got so bad, but they have. Caroline does not have a little girls body anymore and does not know how to use the one she has. We saw Mirai go through this but the diffrence is that Marai has strong jumping technique (other than the slight flutz) and good run across the ice.
Caroline might as well miss her season and her career goodbye if she does not leave Mingzhu Li and find a jumping coach that will take her back to basics and re-learn it all. She might be back in time for Sochi. She should be also working with a dance coach to improve her skating skills and presence on the ice.
I don't know things got so bad, but they have. Caroline does not have a little girls body anymore and does not know how to use the one she has. We saw Mirai go through this but the diffrence is that Marai has strong jumping technique (other than the slight flutz) and good run across the ice.
Caroline might as well miss her season and her career goodbye if she does not leave Mingzhu Li and find a jumping coach that will take her back to basics and re-learn it all. She might be back in time for Sochi. She should be also working with a dance coach to improve her skating skills and presence on the ice.
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2009
I think she should go to Nikoli Morozov, he helped turn Miko Ando back into a great skater after she bombed at the Olympics in 2006. I also do agree with what people are saying about how Caroline's build doesn't lend itself as well to fast skating and high jumps. Ashley and Mirai are much more athletically built, with broad shoulders and muscular legs and arms. Caroline is built more like Alissa Czisny (who also skates slowly and struggles with some jumps) in that they are both thin but lack the athletic build, having small shoulders and little upper body strength. Though Caroline doesn't have big hips, the center of gravity would be lower for them then the girls with big shoulders just because she doesn't have big shoulders. This probably makes it harder to get height on her jumps, and now that she's grown so tall, she can't rotate as fast as she used to and that's why she struggles with her jumps. I believe she can find someone who will help her with her jumps (Alissa Czisny did and has improved since), but she may never become a skater with great jumps. Sasha Cohen wasn't that great technically and still did very well for herself and with Caroline's flexibility and good spins she could potentially become a skater in her model if she fixes her technique and gains some speed.
LOL. "It's not ridiculous?" Then is it preposterous? Maybe you're talking about sports where genes can play some kind of role, but as far as ladies skating goes... in general that's not the case. Let me tell you, I've been skating pretty seriously for almost 10 years now and if you build up great basic skills you can be as fast as you want. Stamina is part of it, so are clean, deep edges.
Putting aside edges/stroking for a moment to zoom in on speed...(no pun intended)
I really don't think her issues lie in her build or lack of innate ability-- I agree with those who say she may lack necessary, comprehensive off ice training. I've been facebook friends with her since before she won her Junior Worlds title-- never once have I seen her post anything about "Man, that was a hard run today!" Or something of that sort. Not that she would necessarily declare it on facebook....but I just never hear about her doing altitude, cardio, etc. Thats what worries me the most. Does she run? If you don't run or do some form of cardio off ice, how can you possibly skate with speed and have enough stamina/endurance to get through your entire program.
I somehow just cant imagine Mingzhu Li saying "Caroline, 2 miles today! I'm timing you...ready, set go!"
I really don't think her issues lie in her build or lack of innate ability-- I agree with those who say she may lack necessary, comprehensive off ice training. I've been facebook friends with her since before she won her Junior Worlds title-- never once have I seen her post anything about "Man, that was a hard run today!" Or something of that sort. Not that she would necessarily declare it on facebook....but I just never hear about her doing altitude, cardio, etc. Thats what worries me the most. Does she run? If you don't run or do some form of cardio off ice, how can you possibly skate with speed and have enough stamina/endurance to get through your entire program.
I somehow just cant imagine Mingzhu Li saying "Caroline, 2 miles today! I'm timing you...ready, set go!"
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Exactly! She even says in that 2007 interview that she hardly does any off-ice training. All I'm advocating is that she trains harder off-ice, not just more hours but in a better focused/organized way. She needs a personal trainer to help her with that. I don't understand why people are taking issue with that.
Caroline's long at the Taipei JGP was stunning. She is simply not the same skater now. Her mule kick is much worse, and her double axel looks like something I would expect from a Pre-Novice (Intermediate for those in the States) lady. I really hope Caroline sees the light and does something about this before it's too late. I think she is so much better than her performances this year have shown.
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2009
So my best friend is a serious figure skater and last year she was running every day but when her coaches found out they told her to stop right away because it uses the wrong muscles and will hurt one's skating. I'm sure some kind of cardio is good for skaters to due but running might not be the best form, it is awfully hard on the knees. I do think skater's have to do off ice work if they want to get better though. I remember watching that show Ice Diaries how all those girls did cardio, weights, and conditioning in addition to daily on-ice training almost every day. Most of them had personal trainers too. There are a lot of Yu Na interviews online and she works out in the gym a lot, lifting weights and doing cardio, and I know Mao and Alissa and Mirai (at least used to-might still) take ballet classes. It just seems like off-ice training is necessary to keep a competitive edge.
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