Considerations of Gender and Sex in Figure Skating | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Considerations of Gender and Sex in Figure Skating

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
That brings the issue into clear focus. I think that a male skater like Yuzuru Hanyu would have a substantial advantage over the top ladies.

Yes, likely. But I don't think the top 10 in a unisex event under these rules would be all male.

That's a nice cushion and Hanyu can do a passable layback and spiral. (Plushenko can do a Bielmann.)

I think these guys, and even those who are especially known for their flexibility, would have a hard time achieving level 4 laybacks and spiral sequences with +2 and +3 GOE, as the best female spinners and spiralers can achieve.

However, even without quads or an extra triple, they may still be able to make up enough difference in jumps to stay ahead.

Would expectations of carriage and body line still vary based on judges' knowledge of the skater's sex? If there were some way to make those aspects of Performance/Execution more standardized and the same for both sexes, it would be more of a disadvantage for Hanyu than it is in the men's event.

However, it's also something he can improve and that is much less dependent on body type than ability to rotate jumps or to pull ones foot over one's head.

But the real question, IMHO, is why do we think that ladies are genetically better spiralers and laybackers than gentlemen? I don't think that men inherently have less flexible backs or worse edge control.

I think it's a combination of biology and social expectations.

Male skaters under current rules have no need to train for extreme flexibility, so most of them don't. That's purely social.

I think on average women do have more flexible backs than men.

If male skaters did have strong incentives to train for maximum flexibility, we'd see a noticeably higher average level of flexibility among male skaters, and sometimes different skaters winning competitions. The more emphasis on flexibility and the less on jumps, the more difference we'd see on which male skaters win the medals and which are limited by body type in their potential to reach the top.

If a flexibility-based sport like rhythmic gymnastics were to become a male sport as well with the same rules and expectations as the female side, I would expect it would self-select for boys who, training from a young age, can achieve comparable levels of flexibility to the girls.

I also think that even with maximal flexibility training, the young men would start to lose enough of their flexibility by late teens (or sooner for those who reach physical maturity sooner) so that the older competitors would be at a disadvantage and the male sport would be dominated by 15/16-year-old boys. (Just as a version of figure skating that rewarded only jump rotation and not so much edge skills or presentation would be even more dominated by girls of that age than is already the case.)

However, for social reasons there is no sport that requires that level of extreme flexibility from male competitors. Artistic gymnastics even more than figure skating expects different skills from men than from women and therefore encourages male and female athletes to train their bodies in different ways and self-select out those who can't approach the ideal body type for their respective sports.

All skaters, regardless of sex, need to develop the best edge skills that they can. School figures as a separate discipline, for example, would have no need to divide competitions by sex.

The reason (don't shoot the messenger ;) ) that spirals and layback spins are traditionally regarded as "ladies" elements, is that ladies look so pretty doing them.

This is social expectations, but it's not a universal opinion. Although the general public -- especially the hegemonic heterosexual male decision makers -- may on average prefer to watch pretty ladies, there are plenty of straight female and gay male skating fans who prefer watching male skaters who make the effort to achieve pretty body positions over pretty ladies OR over men who focus only on athleticism/jumps.
 

OS

Sedated by Modonium
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
The sport already treat ladies and men differently by the nature of factoring score for Program Components. Woman 0.8 in short vs Men 1.0, 1.6 in FS vs. 2.0 for men.

If you ever come to a theory, it will be interesting to test it by compare the program content of
Highest top 10 PCS . TES by Women SP / LP program
Highest top 10 PCS . TES by Men's SP / LP program

Compare it with the empirical data from long term skating observers on what they will consider as the the top 10 SP/LP of all time for ladies that can be consider the least traditional lady like (Power, Strength, Speed), and men that is untraditional masculine like (Artistic, Finesse, Sensitivity, Emotions) and how that may fit into a gender archetype, or cultural identity.

The sport is entirely measured by human judging, it inevitably conforms to the cultural traits and values of the demographic of the ISU judges. What are the male and female ratio of judges under ISU for example. How much impact the sport can have with a 60%:40% male to female ratio judges vs the opposite. Is there some rule under ISU judging in that they must include certain ratio of equal gender judges per each competition?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Here is a little mini-version of the unisex short program. This is the 2014 Olympics SP, with quads and triple Axels allowed and with equal weighting on PCSs for men and women.

Hanyu 101.45
Chan 97.52
Fernadez 86.98
Takahashi 86.40
Liebers 86.04
Brown 86.00
Joubert 85.84
Yan 85.46
Ten 84.06
*Yuna KIM 83.99
Majorov 83.81
*Adelina SOTNIKOVA 83.52
Machinda 83.48
*Carolina KOSTNER 83.28
Brezina 81.95

Three ladies in the top 15. Julia Lipnitskia and Mao Asada did not have good skates.

If we disallow the quad (replace quad with triple flip – every top man tried a quad except Brown and all were rotated except Takahashi’s):


Hanyu 96.15
Chan 92.52
Takahashi 87.40
Brown 86.00
* KIM 83.99
* SOTNIKOVA 83.52
* KOSTNER 83.28
Fernandez 81.58
Liebers 81.04
Joubert 80.84
Yan 80.46
Ten 79.06
Majorov 78.81
* Gracie GOLD 76.65
Brezina 76.55

If in addition we replace men’s triple Axels with double Axels: (ignoring GOE, second half bonuses, and the fact that, absent quads and triple Axels, the men might have had the energy to work harder on spins and presentation):

Hanyu 90.95
Chan 87.32
* KIM 83.99
* SOTNIKOVA 83.52
* KOSTNER 83.28
Takahashi 82.20
* GOLD 76.65
Fernandez 76.38
Liebers 75.94
Joubert 75.64
Yan 75.26
Ten 73.96
Majorov 73.51
* Ashley WAGNER 73.66
* Julia LIPNITSKIA 73.50
 

blue dog

Trixie Schuba's biggest fan!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 16, 2006
A response to several posts before:

An adult gold lady competing this year used to compete as an adult gold male, before hormones. A lot of the adult gold ladies, although very progressive, are very wary of competing with her. As a male, she was a great jumper. Now as a female, her jumps are still there, as are her spins. USFSA doesn't have any rules precluding her from competing as a lady, so she will compete as a lady. Some have suggested perhaps making the individual re-start the test structure (ie-- go back to bronze and work her way up). This may be a roadblock of sorts for her, because moves in the field were always her struggle. (I didn't mention names; mods, if this is out of bounds, please delete)
 

Sandpiper

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Joined
Apr 16, 2014
But the real question, IMHO, is why do we think that ladies are genetically better spiralers and laybackers than gentlemen? I don't think that men inherently have less flexible backs or worse edge control. The reason (don't shoot the messenger ;) ) that spirals and layback spins are traditionally regarded as "ladies" elements, is that ladies look so pretty doing them.
I think women are more flexible than men? Especially since men tend to lose their flexibility as they age (the process quickened by the injuries sustained from doing quads). It's almost like the male version of the puberty monster. Whereas women can keep their flexibility for longer, and can gain it back more easily (Even Michelle, who isn't very flexible by figure skating standards, still did a wonderful Charlotte spiral at Yuna's show--after years of not competing! I can't imagine a man being able to get a move like that back, after so many years...).

Just like men naturally have better jumping abilities due to weight distribution and whatnot, women tend to naturally be more flexible (and from what I've observed, tend to be better spinners, though that could be because of rules/training).
 

Meoima

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
I think women are more flexible than men? Especially since men tend to lose their flexibility as they age (the process quickened by the injuries sustained from doing quads). It's almost like the male version of the puberty monster. Whereas women can keep their flexibility for longer, and can gain it back more easily (Even Michelle, who isn't very flexible by figure skating standards, still did a wonderful Charlotte spiral at Yuna's show--after years of not competing! I can't imagine a man being able to get a move like that back, after so many years...).
Just like men naturally have better jumping abilities due to weight distribution and whatnot, women tend to naturally be more flexible (and from what I've observed, tend to be better spinners, though that could be because of rules/training).
But jumps are still valued much higher than spins, so IF there were an unisex competition, it's likely that men (or trans skaters who were born as men) would have more chances.
 

Sandpiper

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Joined
Apr 16, 2014
But jumps are still valued much higher than spins, so IF there were an unisex competition, it's likely that men (or trans skaters who were born as men) would have more chances.
I totally agree. I'm just saying, women tend to be more flexible (due to biology) and be better spinners (I don't know if this is biology or training).
 

Meoima

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Feb 13, 2014
I totally agree. I'm just saying, women tend to be more flexible (due to biology) and be better spinners (I don't know if this is biology or training).
I think it might be due to training? For example I don't know if Jason Brown is a natural good spinner or because of his traning to max out all the elements in his programs without quad?
Ladies's programs tend to be more balanced than men which has always been difficult jumps oriented.
Personally I think some natural spinners are just biological better at spins. I hardly see skaters with such spins as Lucinda Ruh. Yulia's spins are more natural than Adelina IMO, even though Adelina is a really good spinner.
Some men have better spins than many women, like Lambiel, best spinner among men.
In case of Patrick Chan's spins I think it's is more like the result of good training. Yuzuru is also a natural spinner IMO but he focuses more on jumps.
 

Sandpiper

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Joined
Apr 16, 2014
I think it might be due to training? For example I don't know if Jason Brown is a natural good spinner or because of his traning to max out all the elements in his programs without quad?
Ladies's programs tend to be more balanced than men which has always been difficult jumps oriented.
Personally I think some natural spinners are just biological better at spins. I hardly see skaters with such spins as Lucinda Ruh. Yulia's spins are more natural than Adelina IMO, even though Adelina is a really good spinner.
Some men have better spins than many women, like Lambiel. In case of Patrick Chan's spins I think it's is more like the result of good training. Yuzuru is also a natural spinner IMO but he focuses more on jumps.
I guess what I'm saying is: Women as the whole tend to be decent spinners, with a few who are incredible spinners. There are women who are bad spinners, but there's not many of them, and they're mainly "bad" compared to other women (not as bad as the bad men spinners). Men as the whole tend to be average spinners, with a few good spinners. Of course Stephane Lambiel is a better spinner than Anna Pogorilaya. Just that from my observations, the spin standard is higher on average for women.

EDIT: Though I think the gap has evened out a bit since COP.
 

Meoima

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Feb 13, 2014
I guess what I'm saying is: Women as the whole tend to be decent spinners, with a few who are incredible spinners. There are women who are bad spinners, but there's not many of them, and they're mainly "bad" compared to other women (not as bad as the bad men spinners). Men as the whole tend to be average spinners, with a few good spinners. Of course Stephane Lambiel is a better spinner than Anna Pogorilaya. Just that from my observations, the spin standard is higher on average for women.
EDIT: Though I think the gap has evened out a bit since COP.
I totally get your point. I also think that women are usually better at spins than men. But I think it might due to the difference in their training and program requirements? As I've stated women's programs are less jam-packed than men, so maybe they have more time to focus on spins?
My point is with natural spinners like Lambiel or Lucinda Ruh, no matter which gender they are, they're still good at spins.
So I wonder if good spinner like Jason Brown is the result of his traning method (max put his no quad program) or because he is a natural spinner (biology) like you said?
 

Sandpiper

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Apr 16, 2014
I totally get your point. I also think that women are usually better at spins than men. But I think it might due to the different in their training? As I've stated women's programs are less jam-packed than men, so maybe they have more time to focus on spins?
My point is with natural spinner like Lambiel or Lucinda Ruh, no matter which gender they are, they're still good at spins.
So I wonder if good spinner like Jason Brown is the result of his traning method (max put his no quad program) or because he is a natural spinner?
Training could the reason. But keep in mind the women's LP is also shorter (in length) than the men's LP, so the one-less-jumping-pass doesn't really giving them more breathing room. Not sure what the situation is for Jason.

To use an example, among women, Yuna would be considered an "average" spinner... but if you put her spins beside the men's spins, I think she'll look above average at the very least.
 

Meoima

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Feb 13, 2014
Training could the reason. But keep in mind the women's LP is also shorter (in length) than the men's LP, so the one-less-jumping-pass doesn't really giving them more breathing room. Not sure what the situation is for Jason.
To use an example, among women, Yuna would be considered an "average" spinner... but if you put her spins beside the men's spins, I think she'll look above average at the very least.
Agree. Or maybe because men train more on jumps, and less on spin? You know they have to focus on 3A and all the quad. :think:
 

leoncorazon

Skating on through
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Country
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FYI...I've always found this interesting:

"At first, only men competed in figure skating events. In 1902, a woman named Madge Syers, entered the World Figure Skating Championships."

She won the silver medal...I wonder what would have happened if they had kept the competitions unisex....
 

Sandpiper

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Apr 16, 2014
Agree. Or maybe because men train more on jumps, and less on spin? You know they have to focus on 3A and all the quad. :think:
But women have to train 3-3s, which, for them, are just as difficult as the quads and triple axels for men. Also, Mao is the only woman with a 3A... and she's also a good spinner. ;) Lambiel had a good quad toe. While I wouldn't consider either of them natural jumpers (especially not Lambiel), I'm also not detecting an inverse relationship between jumps and spins. EDIT: Actually, Mao arguably is a natural jumper, but one whose technique is not optimal for the current system.

FYI...I've always found this interesting:

"At first, only men competed in figure skating events. In 1902, a woman named Madge Syers, entered the World Figure Skating Championships."

She won the silver medal...I wonder what would have happened if they had kept the competitions unisex....
Figures counted for a large portion of the score back then, so the difference in jumping ability or flexibility wouldn't have been a huge factor.
 

Meoima

Match Penalty
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Feb 13, 2014
But women have to train 3-3s, which, for them, are just as difficult as the quads and triple axels for men. Also, Mao is the only woman with a 3A... and she's also a good spinner. ;) Lambiel had a good quad toe. While I wouldn't consider either of them natural jumpers (especially not Lambiel), I'm also not detecting an inverse relationship between jumps and spins. EDIT: Actually, Mao arguably is a natural jumper, but one whose technique is not optimal for the current system.
I think quads are more difficult than 3lz-3T, with 3A it's depends, but there must be some reason we only have 1 lady with 3A at the moment.
I think Mao is a natural jumper, it's just she was taught not the right technique for CoP.
Lambiel's jumps are more like the results of training (same as I question if Jason's spins are the results of training as well). And men have more muscles so it's less problematic for them to jump than women.
 

Sandpiper

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Apr 16, 2014
I think quads are more difficult than 3lz-3T, with 3A it's depends, but there must be some reason we only have 1 lady with 3A at the moment.
I think Mao is a natural jumper, it's just she was taught not the right technique for CoP.
Lambiel's jumps are more like the results of training (same as I question if Jason's spins are the results of training as well). And men have more muscles so it's less problematic for them to jump than women.
Of course quads are harder than 3-3s (and harder than 3A unless you're Lambiel or Chan). What I mean is, 3-3s could be just as hard for women as quads are for men, due to men having more muscle, ect. I don't think, necessarily, that women are better spinners simply because they train jumps less than men--they'd have to train very hard to get the 3-3s. (I say "necessarily," because it's very possible that women do train spins more... I just don't know. :)).
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I was looking up Charlie Tickner (four-time U.S. champion in the 1970s and 1978 men’s world champion) for another purpose, and came across this article about the attitudes towards men’s figure skating in that period.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...hEiAAAAIBAJ&sjid=-nMFAAAAIBAJ&pg=4741,1266264

No one loves a male figure skater… Ever since people found other uses for ice besides companionship for alcohol the female skaters have gotten all the acclaim… while the male skaters did triple Salchows in the shadows.

Tickner, following the lead of Toller Cranston and John Curry, was determined to change the perception that “male skating was just a lot of strong moves and high jumps” and that men, too, are capable of “expressing themselves to music. It took some time but eventually the judges came around.’

So with males better equipped than females to do the athletic jumps and equally capable of musical expression, Tickner thinks a male skater has the best chance to raise the quality of the sport.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I totally agree. I'm just saying, women tend to be more flexible (due to biology) and be better spinners (I don't know if this is biology or training).

This is the perfect shape for spinning and is what all skaters, male and female, should aspire to by training and diet. :yes:

http://www.puccimanuli.com/upload/images/super/MAD-Dragon_Egg_Spin_Top.jpg

Even Michelle, who isn't very flexible by figure skating standards, still did a wonderful Charlotte spiral at Yuna's show--after years of not competing!

Michelle had perfect insight into 6.0 skating. Do seven triple jumps and sell it, sell it, sell it! :)

I don't, however, think of the Charlotte spiral as a flexibility move. More like a strength move. (?)

Here, I will stand up and try a land Charlotte right here beside my computer…

help somebody call 911…
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Ok, can I just say one more thing, and then I'll shut up. (Promises, promises.)

This is not exactly on topic here -- it's more relevant to the topic of why men's figure skating has regressed in the quad era. Look at this 1978 program by Charles Tickner! (Great music choice for openers. :) ) The jumps are woven seamlessly into the choreography; he did one innovative move after another that today's skaters don't even know once existed. He does a flying sit position single Axel (?), then a delayed Axel, and a camel spin with brief Yuna position. He did a 3S + back Arabian heal click combination (?) The program was packed throughout with what we would now call "non-listed" leaps and bounds. Every moment of the program was interesting and every moment a triumph and a delight. :love:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVNImLRliFU
 
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