CoP kills the sport - No freedom for the skater

[coolboogie22]

Everyone look the same since CoP is there . I find myself as a skater that the sport is really boring compare to the old times.

In the past, every skater have the freedom of doing everything they want! They were better program in the 6.0 systems, no one care about the bullet GOE and the levels on spins/footwork etc. this was simply magical program with a lot of personnality and doing all the element they want to correspond with the music and doing a show with the audience.

I miss this kind of skating and it's times for a change because it's the real reason why figure skating is less popular every year!

I find myself that the freedom that give the old system give less pressure to the skater and that they were able to perform even better than today. For example, Brian Orser program : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSCr-A8T5qQ his jump look impressive, and we can see the freedom in his face and his personality in the landing of his jumps that we don't see in today skater. Today skater are like robots controlled by a system of points

Is there is any solution for return to a system who give more freedom and personnality for the skaters ?

 

[gkelly]

I've been saying since the beginning that there should be more weight given to GOEs than to levels on the leveled elements (quality over quantity), and more flexibility in the number of each kind of elements allowed in the free program.

Better guidelines on how to reward originality and thematic coherence in the Choreography and other program components would also help encourage skaters to develop more in those areas.

 

[pointyourtoe]

I've been saying since the beginning that there should be more weight given to GOEs than to levels on the leveled elements (quality over quantity), and more flexibility in the number of each kind of elements allowed in the free program.

Better guidelines on how to reward originality and thematic coherence in the Choreography and other program components would also help encourage skaters to develop more in those areas.

I agree. I like that COP quantifies elements and theoretically makes things more scientific, but I miss the freedom
There should be a balance

And maybe just the PCS part should be merged again into a simplified 6.0 type of system. They've broken it down into all these parts but honestly it's still as easily manipulated as ever

 

[Meoima]

PCS' parts don't event make sense to me. I would rather they say who they like to place 1st because they like their performances more than the rest. So yes, PCS is no different from the ordinal system nowadays so why make it so confusing.

 

[WeakAnkles]

I think all anyone needs to do is look at Jason Brown's two programs from last year in order to see that the problem isn't necessarily that COP is The Death Of Figure Skating As We Once Knew And Loved It but that most choreographers are simply either competent at best or just plain unimaginative. And believe me, there were plenty of mediocre, shrug-worthy programs under 6.0. Hindsight always wears rose-colored glasses.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Agreed. Don't blame the system for poor choreography or uninspiring programs. We have had plenty of inspiring programs under CoP, and with much greater difficulty incorporated, at that.

The real issue isn't the way elements are being scored, it's the way components are being scored... the age-old Artistic Impression issue. Judges can give whatever subjective artistic score they want. Thankfully under CoP their weighting is minimized (to a point or few points difference) versus essentially controlling 11% of the artistic score (1 in 9).

The whole point of CoP is to challenge skaters to find that freedom. Under 6.0, there was a distinct "break" section or "slow section", where skaters would stop to catch their breath. Right now, you see few breaks - which is arguably a more challenging approach. Skaters should be skating... not doing stationary poses to try to pad their artistic marks.

There are brilliant programs like Hanyu's Parisien Walkways or Takahashi's Blues for Klook or Kim's Rhapsody in Blue or Chan's Four Seasons, which incorporate CoP difficulty but also deliver something memorable and mesmerizing.

Also, ice dancing is now a matter of what you put out there instead of a glorified popularity contest. I can't believe judges got paid to judge ice dance in the 90's... everyone tell everyone the predetermined placements and if a team falls, drop their ordinal 3-4 places. If every team went clean under 6.0, judging ice dance was the easiest job ever. And THAT, in my opinion, kills the sport. I still remember that time Dubreil/Lauzon came 2nd or something because they had higher difficulty that the team that would have surely just been placed ahead of them under 6.0, and due to points instead of ordinals, there was no choice but to put them ahead.

 

[Tompson]

Agreed. Kurt cannot do Casablanca and Yagudin cannot do Winter in this system.

 

[TMC]

I think all anyone needs to do is look at Jason Brown's two programs from last year in order to see that the problem isn't necessarily that COP is The Death Of Figure Skating As We Once Knew And Loved It but that most choreographers are simply either competent at best or just plain unimaginative. And believe me, there were plenty of mediocre, shrug-worthy programs under 6.0. Hindsight always wears rose-colored glasses.

This is a very good example. I like how under CoP we see less programs with miles of simple crossovers between elements. Now there's something to see almost all the time.

 

[Rossig]

Also, ice dancing is now a matter of what you put out there instead of a glorified popularity contest. I can't believe judges got paid to judge ice dance in the 90's... everyone tell everyone the predetermined placements and if a team falls, drop their ordinal 3-4 places. If every team went clean under 6.0, judging ice dance was the easiest job ever.

Sometimes even if a team fell, it still was the first.

Although I much prefer watching the ice dancing programmes under 6.0 era, I think the present system is more fair, so probably it's better for the sport.

 

[gkelly]

Agreed. Kurt cannot do Casablanca and Yagudin cannot do Winter in this system.

Why not?

The specific construction of the spins and step sequences would probably change to earn higher levels and meet the current well-balanced program or short program required elements limits, and maybe the placement of the jumps to earn bonuses. But the basic concepts of the programs would fit just fine. Casablanca in particular is a great example of good use of transitions and choreography.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Why not?

The specific construction of the spins and step sequences would probably change to earn higher levels and meet the current well-balanced program or short program required elements limits, and maybe the placement of the jumps to earn bonuses. But the basic concepts of the programs would fit just fine. Casablanca in particular is a great example of good use of transitions and choreography.

I agree. There is still room for interpretation in those programs. Maybe Yagudin might only be able to do the snow trick once or maybe twice but he would basically have to add more connective steps. But the spirit of the program would be maintained. Certainly Kurt could pull off a level 4 sequence easily.

 

[plushyfan]

Everyone look the same since CoP is there . I find myself as a skater that the sport is really boring compare to the old times.

In the past, every skater have the freedom of doing everything they want! They were better program in the 6.0 systems, no one care about the bullet GOE and the levels on spins/footwork etc. this was simply magical program with a lot of personnality and doing all the element they want to correspond with the music and doing a show with the audience.

I miss this kind of skating and it's times for a change because it's the real reason why figure skating is less popular every year!

I find myself that the freedom that give the old system give less pressure to the skater and that they were able to perform even better than today. For example, Brian Orser program : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSCr-A8T5qQ his jump look impressive, and we can see the freedom in his face and his personality in the landing of his jumps that we don't see in today skater. Today skater are like robots controlled by a system of points

Is there is any solution for return to a system who give more freedom and personnality for the skaters ?

I totally agree. The programs are so similar. I especially hate the new ice dance. I remember for Anissina's opinion. The American media nearly killed her..

 

[Mathman]

Why not?

The specific construction of the spins and step sequences would probably change to earn higher levels and meet the current well-balanced program or short program required elements limits, and maybe the placement of the jumps to earn bonuses. But the basic concepts of the programs would fit just fine. Casablanca in particular is a great example of good use of transitions and choreography.

Still, in Yagudin's Winter program what made audiences gasp and holler in delight, was the step sequence. We'd never seen anything like it! (having forgotten that it was basically what Sonja Henie was doing seventy years previously). Skaters, including Michelle Kwan in 2003, rushed to Morosov begging him to give them a step sequence like that.

Under 6.0, there was a distinct "break" section or "slow section", where skaters would stop to catch their breath. Right now, you see few breaks - which is arguably a more challenging approach. Skaters should be skating... not doing stationary poses to try to pad their artistic marks.

The "slow part" is what I miss the most. As far "padding the scores," isn't that what sports competition is all about? You try to hit a home run to acheive a the hghest possible score. If there are points to be gained by artistic expression, the skater should go all out to grab them.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Still, in Yagudin's Winter program what made audiences gasp and holler in delight, was the step sequence. We'd never seen anything like it! (having forgotten that it was basically what Sonja Henie was doing seventy years previously). Skaters, including Michelle Kwan in 2003, rushed to Morosov begging him to give them a step sequence like that.



The "slow part" is what I miss the most. As far "padding the scores," isn't that what sports competition is all about? You try to hit a home run to acheive a the hghest possible score. If there are points to be gained by artistic expression, the skater should go all out to grab them.

I think there's a choreographic art to making a slow section not look like a breather. A program is about highs and lows, and obviously you can't go all out all the time. It's just under 6.0 there was often that break. I appreciate skaters now challenging themselves to reduce their breaks and continue skating throughout their programs. Under CoP there is a lot less two-footed skating and glides. These are elite athletes and if they can do quads, they should be able to show a superior level of basic skating.

 

[Violet Bliss]

The "slow part" is what I miss the most. As far "padding the scores," isn't that what sports competition is all about? You try to hit a home run to acheive a the hghest possible score. If there are points to be gained by artistic expression, the skater should go all out to grab them.

So you are all for padding the scores with non skating artistry but against padding the scores with athletic skating elements and skills?

A big change brought about by COP is how scores may be padded. The consequences may not please everybody but I agree generally with the direction of clear directives on what may pad the scores and how the scores can be qualified and quantified much more objectively than under 6.0.

BTW, Lambiel's quad in the later half of his program was preceded by lengthy "artistic expression".

 

[Mathman]

So you are all for padding the scores with non skating artistry but against padding the scores with athletic skating elements and skills?

No. I am in favor of doing both. Art and sport. Otherwise, it's just sport. (Or just art.)

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

So you are all for padding the scores with non skating artistry but against padding the scores with athletic skating elements and skills?

A big change brought about by COP is how scores may be padded. The consequences may not please everybody but I agree generally with the direction of clear directives on what may pad the scores and how the scores can be qualified and quantified much more objectively than under 6.0.

BTW, Lambiel's quad in the later half of his program was preceded by lengthy "artistic expression".

I know. And I hated that section. He stood for about 12 seconds and moved his arms around. Something like the part where Kostner blows a kiss in Bolero and then does that lovely back inside glide after is an acceptable "non-skating break" to me. Not more than 10 seconds of being stationary.

The problem with 6.0 as I said is, a judge could arbitrarily place one skater ahead of another, and nobody would really bat an eyelid (unless they gave like a 5.9 while everyone else gave 5.4), and you wouldn't know where the mark came from. At least under CoP, you can break down artistry. Two judges might give a 5.8 but for different reasons, and the scores would show that ... if they weren't anonymous of course.

I'm REALLY hoping with the potential onset of anonymous judging, PCS scores are more sensible. But that's a matter of judging... in terms of programs, skaters definitely have freedom to do what they want, but are now forced to do higher quality elements with greater difficulty. I mean, you would rare see a spin held for more than a couple rotations, unless it was a required element in the SP.

What 6.0 should have done is made certain elements still required in the freeskate (even if it is a "free" skate)... like spin rotations and footwork preceding at least half of the jump elements.

I will say that the CoP parameters do prevent certain bits of creativity like series jumps that go with the music, or short spins that actually match the phrasing of the music.

 

[Violet Bliss]

I know. And I hated that section. He stood for about 12 seconds and moved his arms around. Something like the part where Kostner blows a kiss in Bolero and then does that lovely back inside glide after is an acceptable "non-skating break" to me. Not more than 10 seconds of being stationary.

He did that under COP. Before Chan, it was accepted that a program with quads would lack much footwork and choreography. Today's Men have to bring both skating skills and big jumps to win. Yet such "padding the scores" is scorned by COP haters in favor of artistic expression with little or no skating.

I will say that the CoP parameters do prevent certain bits of creativity like series jumps that go with the music, or short spins that actually match the phrasing of the music.

Well, Bonaly's back flip, even though landed on one foot, was disallowed and penalized under 6.0.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

He did that under COP. Before Chan, it was accepted that a program with quads would lack much footwork and choreography. Today's Men have to bring both skating skills and big jumps to win. Yet such "padding the scores" is scorned by COP haters in favor of artistic expression with little or no skating.

Well, Bonaly's back flip, even though landed on one foot, was disallowed and penalized under 6.0.

I think it's an evolution to have programs with not much footwork/choreo with quads and now programs with more footwork/choreo with quads. The same way spins with more rotations and variety/difficulty is a step forward. Yes, not all spins and not all programs are pretty with the added difficulty, but that is the challenge.

You can cook a burger and it will probably turn out fine... however making a beef wellington is a more complex process, which could turn out horrible - and probably will be the first few times, but when eventually done correctly it can be more appreciated for the skill (and taste!) than any burger. Hah, can you tell it's lunchtime where I am!

I don't want to see easy programs with quads. I want to see difficult programs which skaters might have a hard time skating cleanly, because when they eventually do, it's much more impressive than if they took the easy way out and just railed off tricks with no program.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Well, Bonaly's back flip, even though landed on one foot, was disallowed and penalized under 6.0.

Hah, that was the stupidest thing ever. It was such a unique element, and it's not like they were "saving" skaters. I'm so glad she did it at the Olympics -- it was a big eff you to the judges and the people who made that ridiculous rule.