Cup of China - Ladies Free Skate - LIVE!!!!!!!!!!
- Thread starter SailorGalaxia518
- Start date
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2003
And, if you continually add more and more jumps, it is isn't really anything other than a boring mess. Figure skating is a sport and the jumps are not the only athletic elements involved. Don't spins, footwork, and just basic stroking, etc. require athletic prowess? COP isn't taking the jumps away. It is simply beginning to value the other elements a bit more, and that has taken the spotlight off of the jumps. That makes people uncomfortable. Also, about Miki being 1st in the free skate at NHK and 4th here...well, aren't the judging panels different? And the callers? These people are only human and they still have their preferences...even with COP. I'm certain we'll see more disparities like this, just like we did with the old 6.0 system.
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2004
IMO, Figure Skating is a sport where you definitely need to balance both technical merit and artistic presentation. Too much on one or less of the other doesn't cut it (A skater can skate really well, but if they fall all the time, is just as bad as a skater that lands many jumps but doesn't relate to the coreohgraphy or music). What happens here is that when it comes to the elements it's easier to give them a value, but when it comes to "how much you liked the skating style, presentation, etc" of a particular skater, I think we walk into a very subjective area. I think Miki is improving in the right direction, being more conscious of when trying to do a quad and when not doing it. She has to improve though in the details of her coreography, streaching and holding her positions to make the transitions from one element to the other very smoothly. I don't think she is a bad skater or that has poor presentation, but I feel she has to connect better with her music, love her music, and that way put more emotion. Now, I do find strange the change on the evaluation of her program from one competition to the other, even if there are different judges or technical specialist. Of course I would need to see both competitions to see what was different between them.
L.A. Miller, I think she is a fine choreographer, I loved the ones she has put on for Shen and Zhao. Like someone said before, I also hope that Miki's coaches take note of the evaluations she is getting, so that they can work on that. Perhaps a vacation with Tarasova could be good for her
L.A. Miller, I think she is a fine choreographer, I loved the ones she has put on for Shen and Zhao. Like someone said before, I also hope that Miki's coaches take note of the evaluations she is getting, so that they can work on that. Perhaps a vacation with Tarasova could be good for her
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
I don't think the CoP favors the jumps only. Maybe some judges do but if the system is working then there are ALL the other factors and segments. Good jumping will get high points but so will good spins and good footwork. If these three are not being judged properly it is not the skater or the system, it is the JUDGES finagling around.
Joe
Joe
Hi I so upset and sad for Angela Nikodinov, she is such a great and lovely skater, she is just like a balerina on ice, I love her skating, she was always a strong short program skater but always have a melt down for the long, she often downgrade her triple to double, I am very surprised though that she ended up last for the long program, wow she must have some falls and some downgraded jumps. Can someone explaine to me what happen to her to get this kind of marks.
I think that she will have a better pro career then she is having of a amateur. She is so good and when she has no pressure she is wonderful and all is together, I've seen her in shows in person and on tv and she is different and she does well, I hope that this competition she will put behind her and concentrate on her win in the begening of the season and go on, she can if she wants, she was on the right track when she had that other coach but lost her when she died of cancer, that was very hard for her, when she skated under that coach, she changed a lot, she changed her appearance, she lost weight, she was a better skater overall, but since then, she had the lost, injuries, and now coming back, she was great when she did come back this year, how happy we all were to see her in forme, but now, what can we think??? Who can help her??? Help her to have the thoughness to skate the long without mistakes....
Oh well, anyway, I like her has a skater and person, and just wish her good luck and if she turns pro one day, I am sure she will bring us many many performances that we will remember for a long time, she is wonderful.
I think that she will have a better pro career then she is having of a amateur. She is so good and when she has no pressure she is wonderful and all is together, I've seen her in shows in person and on tv and she is different and she does well, I hope that this competition she will put behind her and concentrate on her win in the begening of the season and go on, she can if she wants, she was on the right track when she had that other coach but lost her when she died of cancer, that was very hard for her, when she skated under that coach, she changed a lot, she changed her appearance, she lost weight, she was a better skater overall, but since then, she had the lost, injuries, and now coming back, she was great when she did come back this year, how happy we all were to see her in forme, but now, what can we think??? Who can help her??? Help her to have the thoughness to skate the long without mistakes....
Oh well, anyway, I like her has a skater and person, and just wish her good luck and if she turns pro one day, I am sure she will bring us many many performances that we will remember for a long time, she is wonderful.
- Joined
- Oct 27, 2004
I think that she fell or have not completed any of her triple jumps. I think she may have executed at the most two triple jumps. It was sad to watch her fall down in the standings. Now she maybe in danger of making it to the GPF. If she doesn't make it, there will be no skaters from the U.S. in the ladies field at the GPF. However we are probably going to have a nice blend of skaters. There going to be skaters from Canada, Russia and Japan. It should still be an interesting competition So I am looking on the bright side. I'm rooting for Irina Slutskaya and Cynthia Phaneuf.
YOU GO, GIRLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So I am looking on the bright side. I'm rooting for Irina Slutskaya and Cynthia Phaneuf.YOU GO, GIRLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Happy to see Irina still a contender. But I must see Joannie Rochette on the TV. She was special during Dortmund and is head over heals better than Phaneuf and that is not a put down of Phaneuf. both are very special.
Joe
Joe
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2003
Poor Angela. But *maybe* this is the meltdown for her season and it'll only be good things from here on out?SailorGalaxia518 said:I think that she fell or have not completed any of her triple jumps. I think she may have executed at the most two triple jumps. It was sad to watch her fall down in the standings. Now she maybe in danger of making it to the GPF. If she doesn't make it, there will be no skaters from the U.S. in the ladies field at the GPF. However we are probably going to have a nice blend of skaters. There going to be skaters from Canada, Russia and Japan. It should still be an interesting competition
YOU GO, GIRLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Angela has a slim chance only, to make the final. For now, she is 4th with 13 points, behind:
1. Phaneuf 21 points - Qualified
2. Ando 14 points
3. Onda 14 points
She is ahead of Volchkova, who has also 13 points, but Angela gets the tiebreaker.
There are several skaters who could bypass Angela in the last 2 events:
Suguri (1st or 2nd)
Rochette (1st -3rd)
next week and
Arakawa (1st - 6th)
Slutskaya (1st - 6th)
Sokolova (1st - 3rd)
and even Kostner
in the last event.
Chances are, 3 of these ladies will be earning enough points to have more than 13, then no Angela in the GP final. (Arakawa and Slutskaya are almost a sure bet, then any of the other 3).
Herios
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2003
Can't wait to see ESPN coverage 11/22
Oh, Angela!!! I don't want to make excuses for her, but I do remember she said after the SP that she was suffering from jet lag. Then again, she has experience so she should have been able to deal with it and not give a last place performance. I do hope that she will have it together at Nationals. IIRC, she had a poor performance at SA 2000, then came back with a strong performance at Nationals, almost won silver, and came in 3rd in the short at Worlds.
I am looking forward to seeing Joannie. Last year I only saw her short program. Then I was fortunate enough to see her LP on her website (but I think the link is gone now) and left me wanting to see her again - especially since she's skating to The Firebird.
I'm also looking forward to seeing Irina and Viktoria - especially Viktoria's Doctor Zhivago program. And it will be interesting to compare the Top 3 to Miki.
Of course, I'm looking forward to see the other disciplines as well. I'm just bummed that we don't get to see the SP/OD anymore.
Herm (sk8ngnutt)
Oh, Angela!!!
I don't want to make excuses for her, but I do remember she said after the SP that she was suffering from jet lag. Then again, she has experience so she should have been able to deal with it and not give a last place performance. I do hope that she will have it together at Nationals. IIRC, she had a poor performance at SA 2000, then came back with a strong performance at Nationals, almost won silver, and came in 3rd in the short at Worlds.I am looking forward to seeing Joannie. Last year I only saw her short program. Then I was fortunate enough to see her LP on her website (but I think the link is gone now) and left me wanting to see her again - especially since she's skating to The Firebird.
I'm also looking forward to seeing Irina and Viktoria - especially Viktoria's Doctor Zhivago program. And it will be interesting to compare the Top 3 to Miki.
Of course, I'm looking forward to see the other disciplines as well. I'm just bummed that we don't get to see the SP/OD anymore.
Herm (sk8ngnutt)
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2003
Clips on Joannie's website
There are clips of Joannie's performances at Cup of China on her website. :agree:
http://www.joannierochette.com/video/04cupofchina.htm
Enjoy!!!
Herm (sk8ngnutt)
There are clips of Joannie's performances at Cup of China on her website. :agree:
http://www.joannierochette.com/video/04cupofchina.htm
Enjoy!!!
Herm (sk8ngnutt)
More thoughts:
Okay, I've had a day to recover & think about it all (lol),
First off, cheating does happen (quite frequently I say)........began in Sonja Henie's day & continues on to this day as well........that's a given.
Following that, some examples to point out are the most recent 2002 Olympics -- the Pairs judging scandal, which resulted in this new COP system to begin with (not to mention ice dance, which is blatant) -- and how can anyone forget the outright cheating @ the 2002 GPF wherein Irina Slutskaya placed first (w/3 solo triples) over Michelle Kwan (w/6 solo triples, not to mention Sarah Hughes's 7 triples w/one 3/3 combo. Btw, Michelle's presentation was/is the best out of all three, also Sarah was no slagger, and her spins, spirals, flexibility, skating skills were top notch as well. There was no ifs/whats/buts about that one. Karma came two mos. later. And I know there are more examples out there, but this was just to prove my point ~ i.e. cheating does happen.
***Note: being a huge Oksana Baiul fan (she's one of my all-time favorites), I have to say that cheating was/is a definite a possibility when it came to her Olympic win in 1994 -- block voting -- not to mention one of the judges on the panel (i.e. Ukranian Alfred Korytek) was the father of her coach at the time. And as we all know (or should) Alfred Korytek was caught cheating on camera with Russian judge Sviatoslav Babenko @ 1999 Worlds. 'nuff said.***
Secondly, I believe that with this new COP system, the only way to eliminate 'cheating' on the first mark (i.e. TEC) is to have a device attached to each skater's blade that will beep when the skater underrotates (and/or two-foots) by more than a 1/4 either on takeoff or on landing. Otherwise, the 'technical specialist' can easily manipulate that mark by downgrading a jump either intentionally or out of ignorance, and thereby the judges can further complicate the matter by having a free-for-all when it comes to GOE. And what I mean by that is the individual judges can manipulate the GOE either in favor or not in favor of a particular skater(s). Ditto for the component score(s).
***Note: btw, I noted that two Russians were the technical specialists both at NHK & COC. And, lol, ole Russian judge Tatiana Danilenko is back judging (has been). This after being banned for 2 yrs. when @ 1986 Worlds she gave Alexander Fadeev 5.9's after he fell 4 times. Also, she was the one whom placed Sarah Hughes 10th in the SP & 4th in the FS @ 2002 Olympics. Lastly, @ 2003 International F.S. Challenge she was the only one whom placed Shizuka Arakawa 4th (others placed her 1st & 2nd respectively).***
Finally, this new system is no better than the old 6.0 one, actually I think it is worst than the old one (no lie). It takes away from the SPORT aspect, and makes it into primarily just a show, like pro. skating, wherein a skater can win an event by landing 3 triples and dancing his/her way to gold. But even worse, now a skater can have such a big lead in pts. after the SP, that s/he only has to land a couple of jumps in the FS in order to win (falls no longer matter; only deducted 1 pt. for a fall, which is meaningless when one has a 20 pt. lead after the SP). This harks back to the days of Janet Lynn, where she could skate her heart out & win the FS, only to lose overall due to Trixie Shuba's HUGE lead in the Figures portion. And yada yada about elements other than jumps -- Yes, I know that -- which the old system took into account just perfectly. One had to be an ALL-AROUND skater, good at not only the jumps, but also in spins, spirals, footwork, presentation, et al, which can be seen in the 2002 Olympic Gold Medalist Sarah Hughes, as well as 5-time World Champion Michelle Kwan, and most recently in 2004 World Champion Shizuka Arakawa.
***Note: I really think that part of the reason why this new system was introduced was/is b/c a bias against Japan (& China's) jumping prowess. Thus, this new COP to keep them down (Shizuka Arakawa being the exception so far, we will see how she really fares when it comes to Worlds & Olympics; that will tell the 'true' tale). Ironic how Canada seems to be benefitting from a system they themselves wrote...***
Sincerely, Nadine
P.S. One last note, Miki Ando is no slagger in the presentation/component mark, no matter what is stated to the contrary. Yes, I concede that she can improve (as can others). However, her fundamentals are good (nice straight back, legs, delicate fingers, fluid, fast scratch spinner, gentle quality to her skating). To be perfectly honest, she reminds me of Michelle Kwan not only in somatype, but also overall, just not as good (YET).
EDITED TO ADD: lol, spoke too soon, just re-looked @ the judges for COC, and noted that another cheating judge is back judging again (along w/Tatiana Danilenko (please see above). Sviatoslav BABENKO was on the panel of judges during the Ladies SP & FS @ COC! Whee, instead of being banned for life, they get a slap on the wrist, and back at it again... :disapp:
Okay, I've had a day to recover & think about it all (lol),
First off, cheating does happen (quite frequently I say)........began in Sonja Henie's day & continues on to this day as well........that's a given.
Following that, some examples to point out are the most recent 2002 Olympics -- the Pairs judging scandal, which resulted in this new COP system to begin with (not to mention ice dance, which is blatant) -- and how can anyone forget the outright cheating @ the 2002 GPF wherein Irina Slutskaya placed first (w/3 solo triples) over Michelle Kwan (w/6 solo triples, not to mention Sarah Hughes's 7 triples w/one 3/3 combo. Btw, Michelle's presentation was/is the best out of all three, also Sarah was no slagger, and her spins, spirals, flexibility, skating skills were top notch as well. There was no ifs/whats/buts about that one. Karma came two mos. later. And I know there are more examples out there, but this was just to prove my point ~ i.e. cheating does happen.
***Note: being a huge Oksana Baiul fan (she's one of my all-time favorites), I have to say that cheating was/is a definite a possibility when it came to her Olympic win in 1994 -- block voting -- not to mention one of the judges on the panel (i.e. Ukranian Alfred Korytek) was the father of her coach at the time. And as we all know (or should) Alfred Korytek was caught cheating on camera with Russian judge Sviatoslav Babenko @ 1999 Worlds. 'nuff said.***
Secondly, I believe that with this new COP system, the only way to eliminate 'cheating' on the first mark (i.e. TEC) is to have a device attached to each skater's blade that will beep when the skater underrotates (and/or two-foots) by more than a 1/4 either on takeoff or on landing. Otherwise, the 'technical specialist' can easily manipulate that mark by downgrading a jump either intentionally or out of ignorance, and thereby the judges can further complicate the matter by having a free-for-all when it comes to GOE. And what I mean by that is the individual judges can manipulate the GOE either in favor or not in favor of a particular skater(s). Ditto for the component score(s).
***Note: btw, I noted that two Russians were the technical specialists both at NHK & COC. And, lol, ole Russian judge Tatiana Danilenko is back judging (has been). This after being banned for 2 yrs. when @ 1986 Worlds she gave Alexander Fadeev 5.9's after he fell 4 times. Also, she was the one whom placed Sarah Hughes 10th in the SP & 4th in the FS @ 2002 Olympics. Lastly, @ 2003 International F.S. Challenge she was the only one whom placed Shizuka Arakawa 4th (others placed her 1st & 2nd respectively).***
Finally, this new system is no better than the old 6.0 one, actually I think it is worst than the old one (no lie). It takes away from the SPORT aspect, and makes it into primarily just a show, like pro. skating, wherein a skater can win an event by landing 3 triples and dancing his/her way to gold. But even worse, now a skater can have such a big lead in pts. after the SP, that s/he only has to land a couple of jumps in the FS in order to win (falls no longer matter; only deducted 1 pt. for a fall, which is meaningless when one has a 20 pt. lead after the SP). This harks back to the days of Janet Lynn, where she could skate her heart out & win the FS, only to lose overall due to Trixie Shuba's HUGE lead in the Figures portion. And yada yada about elements other than jumps -- Yes, I know that -- which the old system took into account just perfectly. One had to be an ALL-AROUND skater, good at not only the jumps, but also in spins, spirals, footwork, presentation, et al, which can be seen in the 2002 Olympic Gold Medalist Sarah Hughes, as well as 5-time World Champion Michelle Kwan, and most recently in 2004 World Champion Shizuka Arakawa.
***Note: I really think that part of the reason why this new system was introduced was/is b/c a bias against Japan (& China's) jumping prowess. Thus, this new COP to keep them down (Shizuka Arakawa being the exception so far, we will see how she really fares when it comes to Worlds & Olympics; that will tell the 'true' tale). Ironic how Canada seems to be benefitting from a system they themselves wrote...***
Sincerely, Nadine
P.S. One last note, Miki Ando is no slagger in the presentation/component mark, no matter what is stated to the contrary. Yes, I concede that she can improve (as can others). However, her fundamentals are good (nice straight back, legs, delicate fingers, fluid, fast scratch spinner, gentle quality to her skating). To be perfectly honest, she reminds me of Michelle Kwan not only in somatype, but also overall, just not as good (YET).
EDITED TO ADD: lol, spoke too soon, just re-looked @ the judges for COC, and noted that another cheating judge is back judging again (along w/Tatiana Danilenko (please see above). Sviatoslav BABENKO was on the panel of judges during the Ladies SP & FS @ COC! Whee, instead of being banned for life, they get a slap on the wrist, and back at it again... :disapp:
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Re: Angela. Yes, she's a beautiful skater and I root like hell for her, but let's face it, if she hasn't developed the mental toughness to complete a LP by now, when will she? Too bad there really isn't a professional curcuit anymore bec she's perfect for one. She reminds me so much of Caryn Kadavy it's scary sometimes. With sorrow I must say she should give up on the olympic eligible competitions.
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2003
Nadine, I don't deny that cheating does probably occur still in judging. What I meant to say is that I believe that your affinity and great admiration for Miki Ando has led you to automatically jump to that conclusion. I do not mean to be mean, but I do not believe that you watch her objectively. If you did, you would not jump to the conclusion that there must be cheating going on if she doesn't win. I, personally, find her as dull as dishwater, but that is not relevant to my point. Accusing the judges of cheating simply because your favorite skater did not win or even medal is pretty severe. Before I label the judges as "cheats," I like to watch the programs and try to see what these experienced people saw that perhaps I, an amateur watching on my TV set, did not.
Re: Angela Nikodinov
No way, IMHO Angela Nikodinov is made for the COP, but not the 6.0 system. In the 6.0, she most likely would not have won @ SkateAmerica (her first GP win ever btw) ~ wouldn't have been possible with the old system b/c one must be an all-around skater ~ not just good when it comes to presentation/component scores. No, in 6.0, one must be good at not only spins, footwork, spirals, but also jumps & combos. as well.
Angela won with 4 clean triples at SkateAmerica. Thus, I don't see why she shouldn't medal at ANY competition as long as she lands 3 or 4 triple jumps. With COP, combinations are no longer necessary -- one doesn't get any extra pts. for them b/c they're only counted as two separate triples -- being in combination means absolutely zilch (no pts. for difficulty, even though everyone knows it is tougher to do them in combo., rather than separately). Thus, I say Angela has a better chance by staying in the game with COP (hey, she already won her first GP with it) than opting out to a non-existent pro. world. Not only that, in the pro. world, one must still land at least 3 or 4 triple jumps to win (just like in the COP). A perfect example of this is Oksana Baiul, whom has never won a pro. competition b/c she couldn't even land that many (no lie).
***Note: COC was just an aberration, Angela never misses that many jumps, in fact she usually pops jumps which is good where the COP is concerned.***
Sincerely, Nadine
EDITED TO ADD: RealtorGal, point well taken, but I said nothing about Miki Ando winning nor anything of that sort. In fact, I know that she is a 'work in progress', which I have always maintained. What I'm talking about is possible cheating when it comes to calling a 3/3 a 3/2, et al, on the part of the so-called "technical specialist", which IMHO speaks ill of this new COP system, which is why I maintain that a totally objective device should be introduced to prevent human error either intentionally or unintentionally (please see above). At least where the TEC mark is concerned. Unfortunately, nothing can be done to prevent cheating where the PCS is concerned. JMHO, of course.
No way, IMHO Angela Nikodinov is made for the COP, but not the 6.0 system. In the 6.0, she most likely would not have won @ SkateAmerica (her first GP win ever btw) ~ wouldn't have been possible with the old system b/c one must be an all-around skater ~ not just good when it comes to presentation/component scores. No, in 6.0, one must be good at not only spins, footwork, spirals, but also jumps & combos. as well.
Angela won with 4 clean triples at SkateAmerica. Thus, I don't see why she shouldn't medal at ANY competition as long as she lands 3 or 4 triple jumps. With COP, combinations are no longer necessary -- one doesn't get any extra pts. for them b/c they're only counted as two separate triples -- being in combination means absolutely zilch (no pts. for difficulty, even though everyone knows it is tougher to do them in combo., rather than separately). Thus, I say Angela has a better chance by staying in the game with COP (hey, she already won her first GP with it) than opting out to a non-existent pro. world. Not only that, in the pro. world, one must still land at least 3 or 4 triple jumps to win (just like in the COP). A perfect example of this is Oksana Baiul, whom has never won a pro. competition b/c she couldn't even land that many (no lie).
***Note: COC was just an aberration, Angela never misses that many jumps, in fact she usually pops jumps which is good where the COP is concerned.***
Sincerely, Nadine
EDITED TO ADD: RealtorGal, point well taken, but I said nothing about Miki Ando winning nor anything of that sort. In fact, I know that she is a 'work in progress', which I have always maintained. What I'm talking about is possible cheating when it comes to calling a 3/3 a 3/2, et al, on the part of the so-called "technical specialist", which IMHO speaks ill of this new COP system, which is why I maintain that a totally objective device should be introduced to prevent human error either intentionally or unintentionally (please see above). At least where the TEC mark is concerned. Unfortunately, nothing can be done to prevent cheating where the PCS is concerned. JMHO, of course.
Nadine said:Okay, I've had a day to recover & think about it all (lol),
I read your post and wanted to respond to a number of things in it:
First off, cheating does happen (quite frequently I say)........began in Sonja Henie's day & continues on to this day as well........that's a given.
Following that, some examples to point out are the most recent 2002 Olympics -- the Pairs judging scandal, which resulted in this new COP system to begin with (not to mention ice dance, which is blatant) -- and how can anyone forget the outright cheating @ the 2002 GPF wherein Irina Slutskaya placed first (w/3 solo triples) over Michelle Kwan (w/6 solo triples, not to mention Sarah Hughes's 7 triples w/one 3/3 combo. Btw, Michelle's presentation was/is the best out of all three, also Sarah was no slagger, and her spins, spirals, flexibility, skating skills were top notch as well. There was no ifs/whats/buts about that one. Karma came two mos. later. And I know there are more examples out there, but this was just to prove my point ~ i.e. cheating does happen.
***Note: being a huge Oksana Baiul fan (she's one of my all-time favorites), I have to say that cheating was/is a definite a possibility when it came to her Olympic win in 1994 -- block voting -- not to mention one of the judges on the panel (i.e. Ukranian Alfred Korytek) was the father of her coach at the time. And as we all know (or should) Alfred Korytek was caught cheating on camera with Russian judge Sviatoslav Babenko @ 1999 Worlds. 'nuff said.***
I totally agree with you. Cheating has always been a problem in figure skating from the days of school figures to the present. Ice dance has always been the discipline where it's been most obvious. Who can forget all the times when Grischuk/Platov has big falls and still managed to pull out a win over teams that were at least their equal in terms of technical difficulty of a program? But there were also some pretty questionable results in the other disciplines, some of which you mentioned here. I find it horrendous that judges that have been actually caught red-handed cheating are given slaps on the wrist and then go right back to judging again.
Secondly, I believe that with this new COP system, the only way to eliminate 'cheating' on the first mark (i.e. TEC) is to have a device attached to each skater's blade that will beep when the skater underrotates (and/or two-foots) by more than a 1/4 either on takeoff or on landing. Otherwise, the 'technical specialist' can easily manipulate that mark by downgrading a jump either intentionally or out of ignorance, and thereby the judges can further complicate the matter by having a free-for-all when it comes to GOE. And what I mean by that is the individual judges can manipulate the GOE either in favor or not in favor of a particular skater(s). Ditto for the component score(s).
***Note: btw, I noted that two Russians were the technical specialists both at NHK & COC. And, lol, ole Russian judge Tatiana Danilenko is back judging (has been). This after being banned for 2 yrs. when @ 1986 Worlds she gave Alexander Fadeev 5.9's after he fell 4 times. Also, she was the one whom placed Sarah Hughes 10th in the SP & 4th in the FS @ 2002 Olympics. Lastly, @ 2003 International F.S. Challenge she was the only one whom placed Shizuka Arakawa 4th (others placed her 1st & 2nd respectively).***
I already stated my disgust at cheating judges being allowed back, but I have to disagree with you on a couple of points. I think the idea of the technical specialist was a good one. Yes, we do have to trust in that person's integrity because they have a lot of power to effect the marks, but from what I've seen they've pretty much gotten it right so far. It's a lot better than relying on all those individual judges to see and identify an element. I happen to think it's a good thing that we're seeing some proper deductions for severely underrotated jumps. It always drove me crazy that skaters such as Sarah Hughes, who during some competitions didn't land a single properly rotated triple, were given technical credit exceeding others who didn't have the underrotations. I hope you weren't serious about a beeping device on skaters skates - that would be truly horrendous.
Personally, I think the room in COP for cheating comes more in the other mark. These are subjective things, mostly, where judges can easily give points and bits of points to favorites that can add up to significant scores.
Finally, this new system is no better than the old 6.0 one, actually I think it is worst than the old one (no lie). It takes away from the SPORT aspect, and makes it into primarily just a show, like pro. skating, wherein a skater can win an event by landing 3 triples and dancing his/her way to gold. But even worse, now a skater can have such a big lead in pts. after the SP, that s/he only has to land a couple of jumps in the FS in order to win (falls no longer matter; only deducted 1 pt. for a fall, which is meaningless when one has a 20 pt. lead after the SP). This harks back to the days of Janet Lynn, where she could skate her heart out & win the FS, only to lose overall due to Trixie Shuba's HUGE lead in the Figures portion. And yada yada about elements other than jumps -- Yes, I know that -- which the old system took into account just perfectly. One had to be an ALL-AROUND skater, good at not only the jumps, but also in spins, spirals, footwork, presentation, et al, which can be seen in the 2002 Olympic Gold Medalist Sarah Hughes, as well as 5-time World Champion Michelle Kwan, and most recently in 2004 World Champion Shizuka Arakawa.
***Note: I really think that part of the reason why this new system was introduced was/is b/c a bias against Japan (& China's) jumping prowess. Thus, this new COP to keep them down (Shizuka Arakawa being the exception so far, we will see how she really fares when it comes to Worlds & Olympics; that will tell the 'true' tale). Ironic how Canada seems to be benefitting from a system they themselves wrote...***
As a Canadian, I must take exception to your last remark. Canada has always been strong in many skating disciplines - mens, pairs and dance, and this has not changed significantly under COP. We haven't had ANY good ladies in the last several years, and the ones coming up and putting it out there now are the product of systemic changes within Skate Canada that have been in the works for YEARS. Just as the Japanese ladies have shown a huge surge in the last couple of years, so is the Canadian ladies program finally showing some results from what has been years of work. Your comments on that score are unfounded and rude.
As for the new rules being developed specifically to keep down the Japanese and Chinese skaters I think recent skating results disprove your theory. Fumie Suguri won the GP final last year under COP. It was Arakawa who won worlds with her COP designed program. If I'm not mistaken, three Japanese women made the GP final last year under COP. The Chinese pairs have been doing extremely well this year during the GP. Their men's program has been waning for a while and COP simply underlined their big weakness - too much emphasis on the jumps to the exculsion of all else. Your conspiracy theory doesn't hold water.
Second, I disagree with you about COP. I think this system is a vast improvement and we are already seeing the benefits with far more complex and interesting programs being put out there. In no way does COP take away from the sport aspect. If you look at what COP awards points to, you will see that in the singles disciplines by far the easiest way to accumulate points is to jump, because they're worth the most. In pairs, pair elements have been stressed, as it should be. In the past FAR too much emphasis was put solely on the side-by-side jumps, where a couple isn't even touching each other. Lifts, throws etc are what makes pairs unique and should be rewarded. What I like about COP is that there are no longer any "throw-away" elements. Skaters must strive to be good at spirals, spins, footwork AND jumps. Skating is not a jumping contest. You shouldn't be able to just add up the number of jumps and see who wins. COP reinforces this by rewarding other elements as well as jumps. I disagree that the old system did this.
As for accumulating points in the short program, well, why shouldn't they? By the very structure - the long program being so much longer and thus allowing for a lot more elements, skaters can't put themselves out of reach with just a good short program. But why shouldn't they be able to give themselves a lead with a great short? The short should count, or why bother having it? You say that under COP skaters have less of a chance after the short program, but competitions using COP have shown results entirely to the contrary. Under the old system nobody could come up from 7th or even 5th to win a competition. Under COP this has already happened. As for falls not mattering in the new system - uh, you contradicted yourself by pointing out that there is indeed a mandatory deduction for falls, on top of the negative GOE given to the attemped jump. On the contrary, under the old system in the LPs there was NO mandatory deduction for falls.
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Hey Nadine,
Hate to disagree with you but you've gotta be kidding when you post that you believe Angela can do well under COP when completing 4 triples, as in SA. Who exactly did she beat there? Phaneuf and Ando? Decent young skaters but hardly the elite of the Ladies division. Angela will never medal at a fully competed event without skating a complete LP, which means not doubling the last 3 scheduled triple jumps, no matter how beautiful her spirals and spins are. You say CoC was an aberration? On the contrary, though perhaps Angela never doubles THAT many jumps I cannot recall a single LP where she didn't fall off considerably in the last 60-90 seconds for many, many years, if ever. OTOH, while I agree there's no real professional curcuit to go to, if there was one, Angela would be much, much better in it than Baiul who was so far off her Olympic form when she was competing that it was totally embarrassing.
Hate to disagree with you but you've gotta be kidding when you post that you believe Angela can do well under COP when completing 4 triples, as in SA. Who exactly did she beat there? Phaneuf and Ando? Decent young skaters but hardly the elite of the Ladies division. Angela will never medal at a fully competed event without skating a complete LP, which means not doubling the last 3 scheduled triple jumps, no matter how beautiful her spirals and spins are. You say CoC was an aberration? On the contrary, though perhaps Angela never doubles THAT many jumps I cannot recall a single LP where she didn't fall off considerably in the last 60-90 seconds for many, many years, if ever. OTOH, while I agree there's no real professional curcuit to go to, if there was one, Angela would be much, much better in it than Baiul who was so far off her Olympic form when she was competing that it was totally embarrassing.
My response(s)...
rain, thanks for your thoughtful reply, but I still maintain everything I stated in my posts (as always). And that goes for having more trust in a completely objective device attached to a skater's blade that will 'beep' when s/he underrotates (and/or two-foots a jump) by more than a 1/4; whereas a Technical Specialist is only human & therefore subject to "manipulation, cheating, coercion, national bias, lying, etc." A machine, OTOH, is not.
***Note: perfect example of this is in tennis, where a machine 'beeps' when the ball goes out of bounds/outside the white line. Time for skating to have one as well. Unfortunately, the same cannot be done for the TCS mark (nor GOE), as the human aspect there is subject to what I just stated above.***
By the way, as far as underrotations throughout skating history goes, even Dick Button said himself that the things he was credited for (i.e. first men's 2A, etc.) were ALL underrotated (one just needs to look at an old tape to verify this as well). Likewise, the same goes for the ladies -- Irina Slutskaya's 3Z/3R & 3S/3R/2T were both underrotated -- and I'm pretty sure that Miki Ando's ratified 4S was too, since I have yet to see her complete a fully rotated one (no lie). So, yeah, plenty of people have won many important events with underrotated triples & 3/3s throughout skating history, that's life, even Sarah Hughes. That said, I still take my hat off to them ALL for having the pure guts & determination to GO FOR IT!!!
Btw, they also are/were good in other areas, as the old system rewarded an all-around skater. Hopefully that's true for the new one, we shall see...
Lol, as regards the COP system of last year (btw that's the operative word here), since the COP system has since been tweaked/revised, and as a result we are seeing new results, such as Arakawa & Ando's 3/3s being downgraded to 3/2s (also double-whammied). I honestly think if this new revised COP system had been used @ 2004 Worlds, Shizuka wouldn't have won due to her 3/3s being underrotated, which is now being taken into account. So, to me, Arakawa & Suguri's wins last year mean zilch this year -- that was a different scoring system -- now we are seeing the new revised one. And a whole new ball game, which also includes falls that are underrotated being scored as such & also negative GOEs, etc. As a result, we will most likely be seeing safe skating, no risks nor nothing new where the ladies are concerned. OTOH, this new system rewards pretty skating w/nice spirals, spins, footwork, etc. more than ever I feel. Thus, one can now win with a couple of falls, but superb presentation/TCS. To each his own. I, OTOH, prefer to see both sport & art rewarded (i.e. a well rounded skater), which IMHO the old 6.0 system did just fine. I love both parts of this sport (& it is or is supposed to be a sport btw), and don't feel that the sport aspect is being rewarded, especially when it comes to risk. 'nuff said.
***Note: nowadays, no matter what is said to the contrary, the SP tells the tale. For instance, I knew after seeing Irina Slutskaya's SP pts. from COC, that she only had to land maybe 3 triples in the FS to win b/c falls are only deducted 1 pt., which means nothing when you have a 20+ pt. lead over the field. Therefore, it is no longer necessary to watch the FS, knowing who will win already. Silver & bronze may be different, thus perhaps incentive to watch, since the pts. may be closer from 2nd on downwards & therefore more of a competition.***
mhu714, thanks for your input on Angela. I still maintain that she will do better w/the COP than w/out it. JMHO. That said, as regards Oksana Baiul, actually her pro. career was my favorite part (moreso than her eligible one; no lie). She was able to experiment & show off her wonderful artistry, such charisma, and such presence on the ice -- no one like her -- unfortunately her personal troubles marred it a bit, but never when it came to her personality on the ice. Btw, she actually won a Rock n' Roll Skating competition, and placed a respectable 2nd in many competitons as well, at least during the first few years of her pro. career, so it wasn't all bad. And, yeah, she did land more than 3 triple jumps at the beginning. But, towards the end of her pro. career, she couldn't even manage that. Which is why I think it was a good thing that she took a couple of years off the ice to concentrate on her personal life. I really hope that she eventually marries her fiance soon & settles down and has a baby.
Peace & Love, Nadine
rain, thanks for your thoughtful reply, but I still maintain everything I stated in my posts (as always). And that goes for having more trust in a completely objective device attached to a skater's blade that will 'beep' when s/he underrotates (and/or two-foots a jump) by more than a 1/4; whereas a Technical Specialist is only human & therefore subject to "manipulation, cheating, coercion, national bias, lying, etc." A machine, OTOH, is not.
***Note: perfect example of this is in tennis, where a machine 'beeps' when the ball goes out of bounds/outside the white line. Time for skating to have one as well. Unfortunately, the same cannot be done for the TCS mark (nor GOE), as the human aspect there is subject to what I just stated above.***
By the way, as far as underrotations throughout skating history goes, even Dick Button said himself that the things he was credited for (i.e. first men's 2A, etc.) were ALL underrotated (one just needs to look at an old tape to verify this as well). Likewise, the same goes for the ladies -- Irina Slutskaya's 3Z/3R & 3S/3R/2T were both underrotated -- and I'm pretty sure that Miki Ando's ratified 4S was too, since I have yet to see her complete a fully rotated one (no lie). So, yeah, plenty of people have won many important events with underrotated triples & 3/3s throughout skating history, that's life, even Sarah Hughes. That said, I still take my hat off to them ALL for having the pure guts & determination to GO FOR IT!!!
Btw, they also are/were good in other areas, as the old system rewarded an all-around skater. Hopefully that's true for the new one, we shall see...Lol, as regards the COP system of last year (btw that's the operative word here), since the COP system has since been tweaked/revised, and as a result we are seeing new results, such as Arakawa & Ando's 3/3s being downgraded to 3/2s (also double-whammied). I honestly think if this new revised COP system had been used @ 2004 Worlds, Shizuka wouldn't have won due to her 3/3s being underrotated, which is now being taken into account. So, to me, Arakawa & Suguri's wins last year mean zilch this year -- that was a different scoring system -- now we are seeing the new revised one. And a whole new ball game, which also includes falls that are underrotated being scored as such & also negative GOEs, etc. As a result, we will most likely be seeing safe skating, no risks nor nothing new where the ladies are concerned. OTOH, this new system rewards pretty skating w/nice spirals, spins, footwork, etc. more than ever I feel. Thus, one can now win with a couple of falls, but superb presentation/TCS. To each his own. I, OTOH, prefer to see both sport & art rewarded (i.e. a well rounded skater), which IMHO the old 6.0 system did just fine. I love both parts of this sport (& it is or is supposed to be a sport btw), and don't feel that the sport aspect is being rewarded, especially when it comes to risk. 'nuff said.
***Note: nowadays, no matter what is said to the contrary, the SP tells the tale. For instance, I knew after seeing Irina Slutskaya's SP pts. from COC, that she only had to land maybe 3 triples in the FS to win b/c falls are only deducted 1 pt., which means nothing when you have a 20+ pt. lead over the field. Therefore, it is no longer necessary to watch the FS, knowing who will win already. Silver & bronze may be different, thus perhaps incentive to watch, since the pts. may be closer from 2nd on downwards & therefore more of a competition.***
mhu714, thanks for your input on Angela. I still maintain that she will do better w/the COP than w/out it. JMHO. That said, as regards Oksana Baiul, actually her pro. career was my favorite part (moreso than her eligible one; no lie). She was able to experiment & show off her wonderful artistry, such charisma, and such presence on the ice -- no one like her -- unfortunately her personal troubles marred it a bit, but never when it came to her personality on the ice. Btw, she actually won a Rock n' Roll Skating competition, and placed a respectable 2nd in many competitons as well, at least during the first few years of her pro. career, so it wasn't all bad. And, yeah, she did land more than 3 triple jumps at the beginning. But, towards the end of her pro. career, she couldn't even manage that. Which is why I think it was a good thing that she took a couple of years off the ice to concentrate on her personal life. I really hope that she eventually marries her fiance soon & settles down and has a baby.
Peace & Love, Nadine
