Dance and Lines in Figure Skating

[Izabela]

Much has been said and debated about how figure skating is a form of dance on ice. Along this is a great emphasis on the creation of fine line and good posture referencing classical/balletic dancing as our, and often automatic, benchmark to assess a skater's good posture.

Yet, and here I'm readying my popcorn, figure skating is also moving towards embracing modern/contemporary music that when translated into contemporary dancing, already crosses the boundary of classical "alignment" of body (in ballet the emphasis is center position and vertical alignment, which is not for contemporary dance. Today, balletic style of dancing seem to have a hard time adapting to contemporary dancing, and more and more dancing doesn't follow a strict structure in comparison to ballet.

Yet, in figure skating, we still put great emphasis on having beautiful line, stretch and turnouts , having rigid and upright core throughout dancing. But like modern music, should figure skating remain on the "classical/balletic" mindset of dancing or should we also adapt more modern approach to it?

And also, because I really can't wrap myself around here, can you provide me an example of who has great balletic posture and beautiful line and who also exhibited great form of dancing (like jazzy and modern) that is less structured and do not necessary conform to the "classical."

 

[chopinskate]

And also, because I really can't wrap myself around here, can you provide me an example of who has great balletic posture and beautiful line and who also exhibited great form of dancing (like jazzy and modern) that is less structured and do not necessary conform to the "classical."

Non-skater?

But jazz borrows a lot from ballet anyway.

 

[Izabela]

Skaters! Because like in musicality, it seems like in GS people don’t have an agreement of what constitute dancing.

There has been really a blurring of lines between ballet and contemporary/modern dance since they borrow from each other.

 

[chopinskate]

There has been really a blurring of lines between ballet and contemporary/modern dance since they borrow from each other.

Classical technique is the base. So (classical) ballet I wouldn't say borrows from contemporary/modern/lyrical/jazz.

 

[Izabela]

^I’m only basing it on the conversation in the ballet world and how they seem to also wrestle on having to adapt to contemporary dancing. Don’t have much knowledge on it though; hence the thread.

 

[chopinskate]

^I’m only basing it on the conversation in the ballet world and how they seem to also wrestle on having to adapt to contemporary dancing. Don’t have much knowledge on it though; hence the thread.

That's because classical technique would in a sense be too restricted about the way a dancer should place and hold their core, for instance. I think.

For example, here is an arabesque penche, found in ballet.

Now here's an arabesque penche a la seconde or tilt, which is more common in modern, I believe.

So they'd have to "break away" from these rules to adapt to other forms of dance.

Bonus: assisted arabesque penche!

 

[Mathman]

That's because classical technique would in a sense be too restricted about the way a dancer should place and hold their core, for instance. I think.

For example, here is an arabesque penche, found in ballet.

Now here's an arabesque penche a la seconde or tilt, which is more common in modern, I believe.

So they'd have to "break away" from these rules to adapt to other forms of dance.

Bonus: assisted arabesque penche!

What cool pictures. I think that we have seen all three of these as models for what skaters aim for in spiral positions.

 

[chopinskate]

I'd say so!

The arabesque spiral is obvious, but I think Sasha Cohen was able to get the full penche at times? I remember a few moments in her Romeo and Juliet, I think. And the back Charlotte is the penche, but with your arms holding your skating leg.

The tilt one is likely the fan spiral.

The assisted penche is the Kerrigan, I think.

 

[Mathman]

I'd say so!

The arabesque spiral is obvious, but I think Sasha Cohen was able to get the penche at times? Only for a few moments in her Romeo and Juliet, I think. And the back Charlotte is the penche, but with your arms holding your skating leg.

The tilt one is likely the fan spiral.

The assisted penche is the Kerrigan, I think.

As I recall, Sasha Cohen was sometimes criticized for holding her torso too low.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...220px-Sasha_Cohen_2009_SOI_Halifax_Spiral.jpg

Nicole Bobek was considered the classical ideal n the late nineties.

http://www.lifeskate.com/.a/6a00e54f7ecf2c8833011570dd7aa4970c-pi

I would say that a good example of a "modern" or "jazz" posture would be Daisuke Takahashi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gF8Cz6SAE28

 

[chopinskate]

Dang, IDK what I'd classify that Takahashi program as. My initial impression was jazz, but the sheer looseness of movement makes me say that this is what the term "contemporary" was likely invented for.

 

[colormyworld240]

Ballet dancer here! The common spiral that everyone does, like Karen Chen's, is a penche (between that and a la seconde). I've never seen anyone do the arabesque as a spiral, I imagine it would be difficult to hold. Maybe the transition Alina does is into second combo is their interpretation of arabesque, but leg is not supposed to be bent nor held. Polina also does this. As for Charlottes in skating, that's not a ballet position, unless stretching and training flexibility The photo you showed of "assisted penche" is really a needle, which is not in classical ballet, but popular in other types of dance, maybe the closest is the spiral Yulia used to do?

 

[chopinskate]

Ballet dancer here! The common spiral that everyone does, like Karen Chen's, is a penche (between that and a la seconde). I've never seen anyone do the arabesque as a spiral, I imagine it would be difficult to hold. Maybe the transition Alina does is into second combo is their interpretation of arabesque, but leg is not supposed to be bent nor held. Polina also does this. As for Charlottes in skating, that's not a ballet position, unless stretching and training flexibility The photo you showed of "assisted penche" is really a needle, which is not in classical ballet, but popular in other types of dance, maybe the closest is the spiral Yulia used to do?

Oh, yes, arabesques are not really done. But why would you not classify the back charlotte spiral as arabesque penche with the upper body reaching your legs, then? Though it does look more like a Yoga pose.

Wouldn't the bent leg be an interpretation of arabesque in attitude? (I don't remember how it looked though)

I didn't know it was called a needle! The people on that show called it an assisted arabesque penche https://youtu.be/Ar_N_miwCGI?t=1m45s

I know it's not in classical ballet, that dancer is a jazz/contemporary dancer. What's a Kerrigan, then?

 

[Ladskater]

Figure skating requires balance, poise and straight posture. If you've ever actually done a figure 8 you'd know what I mean. Skaters also do most of their skating on a bent knee. If you watch an ice dance team like Virtue and Moir you'll see why this is so important - deep, flowing edges. If you want a good example of who can skate the way you describe, you only have to look at a Kurt Browning program. Kurt maintains his perfect posture and line but can do just about any move - including modern dance - on his blades.

 

[oatmella]

I don’t think classical ballet lines or trying to achieve the classical ballet ideal is necessary nor even truly possible in figure skating

Those photos linked to earlier are not classical positions other than the first photo - I think that is Gillian Murphy from ABT?

I do like the use of classical epaulment though - and classical arm positions. Honestly I think Nathan is quite balletic in this regard and he does have 180 degree turnout as well. Wondering what other (current) skaters have had serious ballet training?

 

[Princessroja]

Oh, yes, arabesques are not really done. But why would you not classify the back charlotte spiral as arabesque penche with the upper body reaching your legs, then? Though it does look more like a Yoga pose.

Wouldn't the bent leg be an interpretation of arabesque in attitude? (I don't remember how it looked though)

I didn't know it was called a needle! The people on that show called it an assisted arabesque penche https://youtu.be/Ar_N_miwCGI?t=1m45s

I know it's not in classical ballet, that dancer is a jazz/contemporary dancer. What's a Kerrigan, then?

Because a penche IS a lean. If there's no lean, it's just a very high arabesque, although yes, the bent leg is an attitude position instead. There's a similar position in classical ballet that occasionally appears in jump form, like this: http://dancetabs.com/2014/04/american-ballet-theatre-don-quixote-washington/ If you scroll down a little ways, you'll see the full picture. You can also find very high attitude positions that are similar, albeit not as extreme. You do, however, find positions very close in certain choreographers' contemporary ballet works--Forsythe springs to mind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8xpbs3UdMI

Actually, I'm excited about this thread, because it's something I've given some thought to. I teach both ballet and modern, and I'm a really big advocate for teaching modern to ballet dancers and, yes, skaters, because while ballet does offer some really great things like the carriage of the upper body and arms, it drops the ball in places like articulation of the spine, breath, and depth of plie, all things that skaters need. I see the same stiffness in skaters as I do in my ballet-only dancers; they struggle to move with a sense of connectedness and core initiation. They tend to forget their breath and get caught up in the position as opposed to the transitions to get there. And as a dancer who's learning how to skate, ballet uses very different muscles and movement patterns (case in point, forward crossovers--I've had a very hard time training myself to get into that kind of a position on the cross. My body really fights it... too many years of training, I'm afraid). I find myself drawing more on my modern training than ballet for my lower body.

From earlier comments, it sounds like this is somehow controversial or there's some major history on GS with related threads. I'd love to read references if anyone has any.

edit: I should also add that modern classes tend to incorporate more improv/choreography (another topic, but something I also think is a generally useful skill) and somatic practices. Explaining somatics with proper definitions can be tricky but suffice it to say that modern classes tend to promote a more holistic concept of the body-mind connection as well as a lot of listening to one's body signals... something I'm sure we can all agree is very useful for skaters with their many injuries (in addition to just being a good thing for most people to learn).

edit of my edit: I can also foresee some confusion of terminology, so to clarify: when I speak of modern, I'm not referring to SYTYCD type stuff. I'm referring to historical styles of modern such as Graham, Limon, etc, as well as a general release technique, seen in most college dance departments and companies like Doug Varone's etc etc.

 

[chopinskate]

From earlier comments, it sounds like this is somehow controversial or there's some major history on GS with related threads. I'd love to read references if anyone has any.

LOL, you and I both.

Looking forward to discussion from the teachers and dancers here! ^__^

edit of my edit: I can also foresee some confusion of terminology, so to clarify: when I speak of modern, I'm not referring to SYTYCD type stuff. I'm referring to historical styles of modern such as Graham, Limon, etc, as well as a general release technique, seen in most college dance departments and companies like Doug Varone's etc etc.

SYTYCD is contemporary/lyrical/nonsense anyway, so no confusion here.

 

[chopinskate]

post

Would jazz also emphasise plie?

I think what I gather from your post is that ballet =/= necessarily deep knees. I do see someone like Hanyu having deep knees, even though his carriage isn't exactly balletic. I'm fine with carriage not being balletic, because I find it too restrictive to see skaters with that sometimes (though the posture should still be correct), but I do think deep knee bend is of course more important than that.

What about turnout?

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

I don’t think classical ballet lines or trying to achieve the classical ballet ideal is necessary nor even truly possible in figure skating

Those photos linked to earlier are not classical positions other than the first photo - I think that is Gillian Murphy from ABT?

I do like the use of classical epaulment though - and classical arm positions. Honestly I think Nathan is quite balletic in this regard and he does have 180 degree turnout as well. Wondering what other (current) skaters have had serious ballet training?

:agree:

 

[Princessroja]

Would jazz also emphasise plie?

I think what I gather from your post is that ballet =/= necessarily deep knees. I do see someone like Hanyu having deep knees, even though his carriage isn't exactly balletic. I'm fine with carriage not being balletic, because I find it too restrictive to see skaters with that sometimes (though the posture should still be correct), but I do think deep knee bend is of course more important than that.

What about turnout?

I'm afraid jazz isn't my area of expertise, but from what I know, yes. Technically, ballet training *should* emphasize deep plies, both for aesthetic reasons as well as functional ones. It's something I really stress with my students (and they sometimes pooh-pooh it, because they don't understand the need). But in practice, it doesn't always, at least for dancers in training. If you watch the top classical dancers in the world, you'll see proper plies, because you can't do the really difficult steps without them. You can see a good example here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIj-TQP5zQc It's pretty, yes, but it's indispensably functional as well.

Edit: I just saw your question on turnout. Can you elaborate more?

 

[chopinskate]

How does having good turn out affect skating? I can see the use of deep knees/plie, but what does turnout do?

Also, in relation to ballet and modern, how does the movement created by dancers learning those translate onto the ice? Put another way, if a skater is dancing a balletic program, would you expect them to just fill their programs with moves from ballet, or would you expect an acknowledgment of music in a ballet program to be done like that in a ballet (which to me always comes off as very dramatic and exaggerated, given its theatrical roots). (Does that make any sense? In the Le Corsaire video, the way Corella acknowledges music cues is different from how I'd expect a modern dancer does it. It also depends on the music, but ballet music is usually pretty grand.)