Dick's Comment: Michelle As A Dancer

[apache88]

My interest is never in dancing or choreography and stuff but since it's concerning Michelle, I have to pay a bit of attention. At the Winter Challenge, Dick commented he was beginning to see Michelle as a dancer, he no longer saw her as a skater who could do very good dance moves. I probably can comprehend what that means but I don't think I can spot the difference. Nevertheless, that's not my point. Upon hearing Dick's comment, I was reminded of Rgirl's comment which was so eerily familiar. Rgirl started seeing Michelle as a dancer only at Nationals 2003. Before that, to my exasperation, she always had not been impressed by her "dance moves" except Winter and Rush (hey Rgirl, I do still remember what you said a millenium ago). Wow, Rgirl I'm completely impressed by your knowledge and experience. When it comes to dancing, I have zero opinion. I take what Dick said as the gospel truth. But I don't always agree with Dick, for example, regarding Sasha having excellent technique but that's besides the point.

So, how do you guys see it? In your opinion, has Michelle evolved into a dancer?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Dick is a trip. What Michelle does in figure skating is what she's been doing for years - figure skating with complete ease. She's extremely musical; she often has good choreography; and she is now quite solid in her technique and her flow over the ice is second to none. Her rapport with the audience speaks for itself when you hear the crowd's approval.

It's not a question of 'who has the best what'. It's not a qustion of medals. It could be her long standing career in FS. But at this point, she is like a great dancer whose appeal is her continued ability to meet new challenges.

Joe

 

[AdultSkater]

MK

Hi Joe et al,

I agree completely. MK has all you mentioned plus she is a celebrity because of her performance appeal over so many years. I think the qualities Dick mentioned would be best seen live, and in his case, over the entire career of the skater. Some fans out there aren't even old enough to remember MK when she was skating to Madame Butterfly, or Rondo Capricioso, Romanza or Salome (or even the first East of Eden as a Junior skater). Her development as a dancer (certainly not a prima ballerina type dancer at all---especially at first in 1992-1994) or stage performer is strictly as a skater, maybe more like Peggy Flemming or Dorothy Hamill or Janet Lynn, all of whom became beloved for what they did as performers (more than jumps or spins) and skaters, not due to being ballerinas on the ice (like Sonya Henie).

Skating can be considered a unique form of dance, as it is movement to music (at its best). But it is dependent on having ice and special "shoes" to move on the ice, the skates. It would have the most speed, power, flow and dynamics when compared to any other form of movement to music, but it is still dancing.

Therefore, if the skater does have a development to consider, their development as a dancer can be seen and analysed. Dick was noting his view of this development, best seen live and over time.

AS

 

[Piel]

The dream commentating team for me would be (in alphabetical order)...........Adultskater, Joesitz, and Rgirl!


Piel

 

[Tonichelle]

I don't see any difference in Michelle's skating... I'm all for choreography and I really get bored watching Michelle... to me all of her programs look the same.

Dick Button is just obsessed with MK... and after his "she's in love" comment I think he's got some major crush on her or something

 

[Rgirl]

Thanks, Apache. And hey Adultskater! Nice to see you again. Apache, I appreciate your comments about my comments. As for what Dick said, this is JMO, but in singles and pairs, I think the dance ability of a skater is very important to some fans but not at all to others. Dick talks about it regarding a lot of skaters so I don't think it's just a Michelle or Sasha thing. He's often said, in effect, that when a skater can combine the skating elements with great damce ability, he's in heaven.

Personally, I think the dance ability of various skaters is part, not all, of what prompts some of the huge disagreements among fans over two skaters who overall are about equal because one's strength is the dance ability, plus the jumps of course, and the other skater's strength are the skating elements. Sasha and Fumie, respectively, are just one example of two skaters who IMO are evenly matched overall but who have very different strengths--not to get OT from Michelle.

I do think Michelle has worked to find the capability to skate with abandon while still keeping her technique in control. IMO in "Aranjuez" and "TFB" this came through like gangbusters. In her two performances of "Tosca," I haven't seen it as I did last season, but Campbell's was so early in the season and at IFSC, there seemed to be ice problems that caused experienced skaters to skate rather cautiously so they could stay on their feet. However, in just that litte clip of MK practicing, I saw the dance magic she had developed last season, which has me very excited for her at Nats and Worlds. However, I don't think it's something that comes naturally to her--just wasn't wired that way--and that she has to contentrate to allow her body to let go. But that makes me admire her all the more. I also agree with Joe that MK's continued growth as a skater has endeared her to many fans.

BTW, when I say "dance" I don't mean ballet. I mean a sense of movement where the movement of the whole body has its own natural grace, irregardless of style, and moves in such a way that the skater extends out to the very edge of where she might lose her balance. Skating on the edge, so to speak. If a skater's natural way of moving is balletic, ie Oksana Baiul, Yukina Ota, fine. But there are as many styles of dance as there are people and what I love to see is a skater dancing as her or himself, which is what I think MK has discovered. MK could be in love, but in love with the wonderful way it feels to move as she does now on the ice in combination with her technical elements.

BTW, same goes for the guys and pairs.
Rgirl

 

[shine]

Another lurrrvly post by Rgirl that I totally agree with
BTW, do you like Stephane Lambiel? I think he's about the best "dancer" in men's skating today. Has so much freedom and nuances in his movement; and with blades as smooth as butter, he moves like no other on the ice. Totally musical and oh so natural.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

shine - Stephane Lambiel is a natural. Like Kurt Browning, dance just flows out of his body on the ice.

From what I understand is that he practices maybe two times a week travelling for hours on end to get to a rink for coaching. He also spends a week or two with some Russian coach and that's all the skating he gets in. So what you see is just plain natural talent.

Joe

 

[Rgirl]

Originally posted by Piel:

The dream commentating team for me would be (in alphabetical order)...........Adultskater, Joesitz, and Rgirl!

Aw, Piel. That's so nice of you to say. Of course they'd probably have to put Adultskater, Joe, and me in separate booths so we couldn't start smacking each other when we disagreed, lol. It sure would be lively with the three of us but interesting--I would hope.

Hey Shine,
I LOVE Stephane Lambiel. At last season's Euros I was in with his every move. Great example of a great dancer who is not balletic, not any specific style, just a beautiful animal mover. I'm so hoping he can get more ice time so he can get his jumps and other things together so we can see him compete lots and lots and lots!

And yes, Joe, ITA. Lambiel is a complete natural. As you said, "Dance just flows out of his body on the ice." Dang. Wish I'd said that.
Rgirl

 

[shine]

ITA that Lambiel's style cannot be classified ino any specific category, but you just can't help but fall in love watching him.
It's really too bad that the NA broadcast never showed Lambiel's "Chocolat" LP, especially the totally outstanding version he performed during worlds QR. Also his exhibition to "Magic Stradivarius". I think these 2 programs have showcased Lambiel's dancibility very wonderfully

I love musical dancers on ice

 

[windspirit]

[Stephane Lambiel] [...] He also spends a week or two with some Russian coach and that's all the skating he gets in.

And that Russian coach would be Mishin? Is Stephane still going to him for lessons?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Windspirt - That little synopsis I wrote is what I heard at the DC Worlds when I had some Swiss fans around me. It could well have been Mishin. But what Lambiel needs more than anything is coaching on a regular basis and practice.

Joe

 

[Ladskater]

apache88:

I am not sure what Dick means here; I don't really see any "dancing" attributes in Michelles' skating - now Kurt Browning is a different story. He could be a dancer. He moves like Gene Kelly on skates. I would have to watch Michelle a little more closely to really notice. Unless, Dick means she skates more freely than she used to.

 

[apache88]

Ladskater, me too, I couldn't spot the difference although Dick was specifically referring to the Tosca footwork.

Rgirl, am I right to say in your opinion, a skater has to move her body in total freedom in order to be skating like a dancer? For Michelle, you saw that in Rush and Winter only, and then Aranjuez?

 

[sk8m8]

Arial 12 As a dancer who was trained many years ago, I cannot begin to remember all the times numerous instructors have uttered the phrase....
"We dance with our bodies, not our feet. By postioning our feet and legs correctly, our body is able to execute the dance."n This is a common explaination for what dancers call "Body Flight"...The ability to move through a space with trunk and legs in concert to bring about brilliant dance.

This is especially true about Michelle (IMHO!!!) Prior to last year there was all the great edging, all the well trained and exectued "skating technique," and all the expression. However, what was lacking in MK's skating was a "loosness" in the body that Rgirl has so often commented about.

Last year (owing to what, I can't say) Michelle found her body flight and with all her previous training she took her skating to the next level. All that spectacular footwork was enabled by the correct awareness and "free but controled" body movement and positioning. Michelle's flow out of her jumps has always been excellent, though she's not the highest jumper in the world. Her new found "body flight awareness" means that all those lovely positions on her edges have more substance and takes all MK's lovely "gestures" and allows them to be even more inclusive and developmental to her program than they have been in her previous skates.

I believe, this is one of the real reasons that people are so crazy about Sasha's skating....She is able to achieve those gorgeous positons because she developed body flight very early in the game, perhaps even before she developed her skating skills. This is not unusual, since Sasha started out at an early age as a gymnist, and there is not ONE SINGLE great gymnist that doesn't posses inate "body flight" awareness.

All the great "dancer/skaters" have this exact ability, If you notice those skaters with great footwork, such as Brownig, all of them have great body positons over their skates when they are doing their breathtaking footwork passes. I think that Kurt's skating improved greatly when he met his wife ( a ballet dancer) and had time to develop his skills even more.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

ITA Sk8m8 - Michelle has now reached a level of skating that is comparable to a 'harmoniously polished' dancer. The dancer who makes less performances but gets the greatest reviews from the audiences and critics.

But Figure Skating is a SPORT and the ever-growing technical elements involved which the younger skater will seize upon, is very difficult for the older skater to keep up with. But, then the older skater rises to the challenge in pure elegance.

Aranjez was something special. but will we get that with Tosca?

Joe

 

[mzheng]

"We dance with our bodies, not our feet. By postioning our feet and legs correctly, our body is able to execute the dance."n This is a common explaination for what dancers call "Body Flight"...The ability to move through a space with trunk and legs in concert to bring about brilliant dance.

Yeah. I believe that's the way I feel Michelle's skating last year in all her programs. I also remember Peter commented at GP's that when your body moves up and down in your footwork that make it more difficult to control. I think they refer to the same thing?

 

[Rgirl]

Ladskater, me too, I couldn't spot the difference although Dick was specifically referring to the Tosca footwork.

Rgirl, am I right to say in your opinion, a skater has to move her body in total freedom in order to be skating like a dancer? For Michelle, you saw that in Rush and Winter only, and then Aranjuez?

Apache,
Dick was referring to watching Michelle practice. My guess is that the ice conditions were better (not so wet) and that she probably wasn't nervous about the jumps so she could really "go for it." I can't recall exactly, but I seem to remember Dick saying she looked a little restrained in the actual performance compared to how he saw her in practice.

As for your excellent question about whether I feel that in order for a skater to move like a dancer s/he must move her body in "total freedom," I'm going to refer to Sk8m8's wonderful post. I might have said a few things differently, but the essential point of "freedom with control" is something with which I couldn't agree more. For me, it's extending and stretching your body out as much as possible (when appropriate) without losing control and faling over. Moving on the razor's edge, as it were. That's what makes it exciting for me. Add great musicality and you've got a superb combination skater/dancer. But Sk8m8 said it very well--probably better than I would have, lol--and ITA. BTW, thanks for asking
Rgirl

 

[guinevere]

I agree with a lot of what RGirl and Sk8m8 have said so eloquently. I thought I'd add my 2 cents as well.

From reading all the posts, it's clear that people think many different things when they hear the word "dancer". For many, dance is equated with ballet, for others, they think Fred Astaire/ballroom. I am a modern dancer, so I'm responding with that criteria in mind.

There are times when I am dancing and I can feel that my connection to the choreography transcends simply doing the movement well - I think this would be what sk8m8 referred to as "Body Flight". I feel completely free within the movement, and yet I know exactly what each part of my body is doing at all times, and every single movement is happening for a reason. To me, seeing that on other dancers (or skaters!) is what elevates a performance from 'dance' to Art.

I have always felt that Michelle pays attention to these details. Usually the earlier competitions in a season don't have as strong of an impact as later ones, as the choreography is still new, and there are some programs that work better than others, as well as some competitions where the 'dancing' quality is more complete than others, but I absolutely consider Michelle a dancer on skates.

OTOH, I don't feel the same about Sasha. I feel that Sasha has wonderful flexibility and strength, and she creates gorgeous poses on the ice, but I do not ever get the sense of her feeling the program, or that the choreography is ever deep inside her. Actually, I think her artistry suffers as the season goes on - I noticed some beautiful dancing in the footwork section of Sasha's LP last season the first time I saw it, and for the rest of the season I felt that she just threw that whole section away. It felt to me that while the choreography was new and it was a challenge to get through it properly, Sasha had to pay attention to every step; once she knew it, she would just tear through it, which diminished the impact for me. I think it's just a difference of style preference, though.

guinevere

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Hi guinivere - I believe dance is the movement of the body to a rhymic beat. IMO, the queen of the dance is the Folk Dance, ie. the dancing that comes from the soil. That kind of dancing comes from all parts of the world.

Out of the truly folk dance comes the choreographed Character Dance that formalizes the folk steps into a sort of spectacle which the inhabitants recognize and love.

As monarchies grew so did a new form of dance "The Court Dance". All the great kingdoms had their court dances. In Italy, they had a special group that would turn out at the knees and point their toes while dancing. The foreign ambassadors assigned to Italy were taken by this. The French, in particular, arranged for the Italian Dancers to come and perform for the French monarchy. Everyone loved it and so began the birth of the ballet. A century or so later, I believe the British put rudimentary blades on their shoes and voila, ice skating came into being. It wasn't long before using ballet line found its way into figure skating. Fast forward and one can see that The Hollyhwood Ice Review not only looked like ballet on silver toe shoes but it also did many of the character and yes, the modern steps. So, imo, figure skating encompasses any form of dance line - not just ballet. Problem with skating is that there is no instep to utilize the whole foot.

Getting to Sasha - She does have great ballet line and uses it quite effectively. Michelle, imo, has more than adequate ballet line. Both, however, are dancers on skates. The difference between the two as I see it,is that MK is a more solid figure skater than Sasha at the moment. Come 2006, there may be changes.

Joe