Did Cohen Have the Desire to Win?

[Mathman]

I don't base my favorites on results; I base mine on feelings and emotions.

Me, too. :yes:

And since Alissa has been brought up -- there is a skater whose nerves really are her own worst enemy. She can land that stuff in practice all day long. In competition, her jump technique just goes out the window. I hope she wins U.S. nationals, which is a goal not beyond her reach, IMHO.

 

[wildone]

Oh, someone said she did. I'm really sorry, I guess I was wrong and the other person confused her.

I think it was the Holiday Celebration on Ice in Vegas where she to redo a triple jump a few times. I remember reading that it was not all her fault. There was some camera issues involve.

 

[ManyCairns]

I've heard Mathman's argument posited before, and I find it very convincing -- that Sasha's issue in competitions was not nerves, but just that she simply couldn't consistently land the jumps she needed and planned in her programs in order to be competitive -- i.e., that she simply didn't have the ability to do them consistently.

This idea could easily be confirmed or disproved if anyone knows whether Sasha was able to consistently land the jumps in practice. If she could, then I guess her prob at comps WAS nerves/attitude/mental toughness/whatever. If she couldn't land the jumps in practice, either, then the issue wasn't nerves, but just, as Mathman said, that she was skating at the limit of her ability.

 

[attyfan]

...
This idea could easily be confirmed or disproved if anyone knows whether Sasha was able to consistently land the jumps in practice. If she could, then I guess her prob at comps WAS nerves/attitude/mental toughness/whatever. If she couldn't land the jumps in practice, either, then the issue wasn't nerves, but just, as Mathman said, that she was skating at the limit of her ability.

Well, at the post-event wrap up after 2004 Nats, Peggy said that Sasha was the best practice skater ever -- so I assume that she skated cleanly in practice.

The idea that a skater thinks too much about winning seems to be quite common -- even among the best, so it could apply to Sasha. On one of my tapes is an interview with Plushy, explaining his melt-down at Worlds in 2000, because he 'was thinking about the gold and not about [his] jumps".

I think, though, that Sasha's problems are not totally mental/ psychological. The skaters that are letting their minds mess with their performances (Sandhu, or Weir in Torino are examples) they do things like pop jumps, skip elements, etc., as well as fall. With Sasha it is falling and only falling. Maybe, the mental stress actually affects her jump technique, so she doesn't do in competition precisely what she does in practice.

 

[R.D.]

wow, this thread exploded...seems like folks really did have a need to talk about Cohen...

A couple things I've seen in this thread:

About missing her skating- well, she is still skating in specials and will be doing the SOI tour. Plenty of times to see her skate. Not going anywhere, at least not this year.

About mental toughness- she said herself that she hasn't found that 'certain something' to 'pump up' for competitions, or something to that effect. You can prepare as much as you want but if you are freaked out at the prospect of the 'big show', it can fly both ways- it can bring out either the best in you, or the worst in you (my personal experience). Judging by her performances I don't think that was the issue. She never had a true meltdown, at least not in recent memory.

I think she was performing to the best of her ability. The only reason this discussion even exists is that she skated in an era where TWO skaters continuously put out clean performance after clean performance, which is one of a kind. And that's why she never won the big one. I mean, look at Mao Asada. She's dominating, but does she skate clean all the time? NO! She's making her own share of mistakes, too, and I notice people are also beginning to get on her case for it. I think we just need to accept that consistent skaters are (now, anyway) the exception, not the rule. I can't name any skaters other than Kwan and Slutskaya who fit this definition of "consistent performer". Even they have had their own share of off-nights, unfortunately for them it occurred on the night they could have sealed the deal for the OGM.

Back to Cohen- maybe all this talk is unfair in the big scheme of things. If she were competing in this era, who knows what would happen because now, NO ONE is consistent. Even Kimmie had some issues on jumps at SA.

You could start this same thread for just about any current skater whose name is not Kwan, Slutskaya or Arakawa.

 

[Medusa]

I think it is weird to start such a topic about a skater who repeatedly became Vice-World-Champion and captured the Olympic silver medal. It definitely feels weird, because being the second-best in the world is not just losing to one other skater but winning over everyone else. If Cohen did not have the desire to win she would have never made it out of regional competitions.

 

[Jaana]

I always got the impression that Cohen really wanted to win and wanted it kind of too strongly. Who knows, maybe if she had just concentrated on skating her best in her competitons, things had worked even better for her? Anyway, her skating is really beautiful and enjoyable to watch and she has every reason to feel proud of it and of her career so far, also. Besides, it was also great to see in the competitions that she did not give up after a mistake.

 

[Fossi]

Cohen def. had the desire to win, but went about things wrong. She wanted to work on things that came easy to her, like her spirals and spins. She wanted things her way. There were many things that hurt her in her career but mostly the hype did it. Everyone expected great things becasue Team Cohen put it out there that she could do things she couldn't. When she didn't deliver then naturally people talked about her failures. Too many people told her she only needed to skate clean and she'd win, but there was never any guarantee of that, and she started to believe the hype. Problem? She couldn't hold on for the long program and was def. a short program skater. I think the desire was always there, but she didn't have the right attitude.

 

[Dee4707]

I can't name any skaters other than Kwan and Slutskaya who fit this definition of "consistent performer"

As many years that I have watched skating, I don't know of any skater that was consistent.

Dee

 

[cassieandcheetah]

As many years that I have watched skating, I don't know of any skater that was consistent.

Dee

um.......what about Yevgeny Plushenko, Gordeeva/Grinkov, Alexei Yagudin, etc? Under the old system, if you fell once in the short program you were done for, so it didn't do justice to how consistent these skaters were. Of course you'll fall every once in a while, but c'mon, the number of wins these folks amassed was simply amazing.

 

[Ladskater]

This is something we will never really know. Only Sasha and possibly her coach could answer that. I remember one of Canada's champion skiiers - Nancy Green - she won the Olympic Gold medal in Grenoble France in 68. Nancy earned the nickname "Tiger" because of her fierce determination when she competed. One could see she was really psyched when she came out of the gate. Some skaters have this determination and some don't. Competing in any sport is tough. Figure skating is no less grueling.

I really don't think Sasha has anything to apologize for. She is a beautiful skater and one that you don't see that often blossom so quickly. I think she earned her spot in the skating history books as one of the most gifted female skaters to ever grace the ice. Toller Cranston would agree I am sure.

Why not just appreciate what contributions Sasha has made to the sport? Many of the young girls coming on the scene aspire to skate like her. It's great that they have a model to look up to. Hopefully we will see some improved spirals thanks to Sasha.

 

[kandidy]

Now, when Iwas reading the kimmie thred full of Sasha discussion, everyone was speaking abt Sasha as a loser.

Now, when I read this Sasha thread, it turns out now everyone is prasing her!!

 

[Dee4707]

um.......what about Yevgeny Plushenko, Gordeeva/Grinkov, Alexei Yagudin, etc? Under the old system, if you fell once in the short program you were done for, so it didn't do justice to how consistent these skaters were. Of course you'll fall every once in a while, but c'mon, the number of wins these folks amassed was simply amazing.

I don't disagree they were/are great skaters but I don't think they were consistent. To me the word means they never faltered and that is not the case. I know for sure that Alexei had his melt downs at various comps.

Dee

 

[Enero]

I don't disagree they were/are great skaters but I don't think they were consistent. To me the word means they never faltered and that is not the case. I know for sure that Alexei had his melt downs at various comps.

Dee

You are so right. Plushy too as well as Irina when they were coming up through the ranks. In fact, I would say Irina was somewhat of a "late" bloomer. Even though her and Kwan came on the Senior scene around the same time, it took about 5-6 years before Irina started to become a "consistent" skater.

That said, I think Sasha most definitely wanted to win. Unfortunately for her, winning was just not in the cards, most of the time.

 

[bekalc]

I don't disagree they were/are great skaters but I don't think they were consistent. To me the word means they never faltered and that is not the case. I know for sure that Alexei had his melt downs at various comps.

Dee

There isn't a skater around who has never faltered.. Your human and the ice is slippery.

Consistency too me, means delivering similar performances/getting similar results most of the time.

In this case, Sasha was more consistent than Arakawa who went from something like 9th to 1 to 9th again and then Olympic Champion...Sasha though was never really able to deliver a fully clean performance when it counts and that's why she's not a world or Olympic champion...

 

[R.D.]

But despite her "flip-flops" in placement, Arakawa still has both a World championship and an Olympic championship. As a competitive skater it doesn't get much better than that. I'm sure Cohen (and countless other skaters) would trade places with her any day.

 

[bekalc]

But despite her "flip-flops" in placement, Arakawa still has both a World championship and an Olympic championship. As a competitive skater it doesn't get much better than that. I'm sure Cohen (and countless other skaters) would trade places with her any day.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I also think Arakawa is better and more talented. But Arakawa was not consistent. I think if Arakawa had put her mind to it, she could have accomplished a lot more.

 

[R.D.]

I agree that Arakawa was not a consistent skater. But the take home point is that you don't have to be consistent to win the big one. You just have to bring it WHEN IT COUNTS, and that's what Arakawa was able to do, and where Cohen faltered.

 

[bekalc]

I agree that Arakawa was not a consistent skater. But the take home point is that you don't have to be consistent to win the big one. You just have to bring it WHEN IT COUNTS, and that's what Arakawa was able to do, and where Cohen faltered.

Yes, Arakawa brought it when it counts. Twice. But there were a lot of occassions "where it counts" where Arakawa didn't bring it...Still yeah, I'd take her career over Cohens... But I still think that Arakawa is one of those who could have been greater than what she was.

 

[R.D.]

Yes, but ultimately she got the OGM and a WGM. That's not shabby by any means and in general, folks aren't going to moan about "what she could have been" like they do over Cohen.

True, Arakawa did not bring it on ALL occasions when it counted. But she brought it on the most IMPORTANT ones.

Cohen? ...