Do most people find it difficult to be fans of both Michelle and Sasha?

[bronxgirl]

Not at all!!!

Kwan and Cohen are like Apples and Oranges. Pick your choice.
I like both although I like one more than the other.

Joe

The only thing is that citrus growers and the owners of apple orchards don't flame each other on internet boards. (At least I think they don't)

 

[Isa-krisa]

I agree with "skatepixie".

I like Sasha. I would like her in any decade, regardless of who her competition would be.

I dislike Kwan. Not only her skating, personality, and choices she makes, personal and skating wise. I would feel the same way regardless who her competition would be.

I also like Arakawa and Sokolova. I don't compare them to anyone. I just like them.

I dislike Buryskaya, personality wise more than skating. Now she is not a competition to anyone, I still dislike her.

I don't think, in my mind, I compare skaters as a general practice, unless:
a) there is a competition going on.
b) there is a post on a forum "which one is better".

The only thing that made me like Sasha "less", is the fact that she "did not hang in" with Tarasova.

The only thing that will make me like Kwan if:
- she makes a formal appology to the coach which she dropped like a "hot potato" few weeks before Olympics.

- she starts doing elements to her "maximum abilities", including 3/3's, and not put elements into her programmes that are "just enough to win" (Ha, that failed).

- she puts on some darring, break through programme, never seen before "in her style".

- her nutty fans quite calling her "the Kween" and quite running their "fandom" into "idolitry".

But no - I don't need to compare the two, as a general rule.

 

[shine]

I'm not a fan of Sasha. I'm amazed at what she can do from an artistic point of view .... She can't relate to her music in a way that moves me like MK always does.

So how can you be anything remotely artistic if you can't even relate to the music?
Pointed toe and extension only get you this far in the artistry department.

 

[RIskatingfan]

It weren't Kwan's "nutty fans" who started calling her the Kween. It was a joke someone made in another board (not the MKF) and it stuck.

I like both skaters. I used to prefer Michelle and still think she is a better skater overall but her programs on the last couple of years or so haven't been as good as Sasha's, which were great. So this season I kind of rooted for Sasha. But I enjoy watching them both The only thing I ask is good programs and good performances, if they have it I will love them LOL

It's really annoying how fans of both sometimes get into arguments over things so silly. Most of the discussions I see that will get huge threads and HUGE fights, either they use super childish arguments or they don't know all that much about skating and start talking about skaters' personalities (as if they knew them well enough and their dreams just because they read a few interviews or their online diary... ). Apart from those, all the rational and civilized discussions are welcome, it's always good to talk about the skaters and their programs

 

[BravesSkateFan]

Isa-krisa...

I'm just curious as to what personal choices of MK's make you not like her? I understand if you don't like her skating, that's your perogative, but MK is pretty private with her personal life, so I'm curious what you heard that she did.
My second question is why do you think she needs to apologize to Frank Carroll? (BTW it was months, not weeks before the Olympics that they split). IMO no skater needs to apologize for deciding to leave thier coach for whatever reason. They need to do what they feel is best for them and for thier career. Michelle has done it, Sasha has done it, Jenny K, Vika and countless others. As for your other opinions, I don't agree with most of them, but as I said that's your perogative to like or dislike whoevers skating/personality that you want.
BTW...I hope you realize I'm not out for an arguement. I just like to understand where other posters are coming from. The two things I asked about I honestly don't understand where they are coming from, so that's why I'm asking.

 

[RIskatingfan]

So how can you be anything remotely artistic if you can't even relate to the music?
Pointed toe and extension only get you this far in the artistry department.

IMO Sasha relates to her music alot more than Michelle does. (I also disagree that there isn't emotion Sasha's skating - by the contrary!)

Michelle emotes and sells the program well, but for 80% of her programs, if you put the sound mute and switched on the radio it would probably work just as well. The way I see it, Michelle highlights herself and the music is secondary to her and her skating. Sasha, OTOH, blends with the music and the program. The WOW moves everyone talks about are usually well integrated in the music. It's just different ways of performing. One tries to "skate to the music" (Michelle), the other one tries to interpret the music (Sasha).

 

[Isa-krisa]

IMO Sasha relates to her music alot more than Michelle does. (I also disagree that there isn't emotion Sasha's skating - by the contrary!)

Michelle emotes and sells the program well, but for 80% of her programs, if you put the sound mute and switched on the radio it would probably work just as well. The way I see it, Michelle highlights herself and the music is secondary to her and her skating.

I completely agree, and often said the same thing, especially about "muting and switching music" of MK's programmes. I even tried running her programmes from the tapes in silence to various music pieces on the radio - visually it all matched and made no difference. She is a very strong skater, yes the programmes are about her, not music. And her outfits are "athletic skating dresses" not "costumes", except for Taj Mahal and one or two more. MK has a lot of strong qualities in her skating, but I just expect more out of a skater who has been ellevated to a status of "Skating Godess".

 

[shine]

IMO Sasha relates to her music alot more than Michelle does. (I also disagree that there isn't emotion Sasha's skating - by the contrary!)

I agree that Kwan doesn't relate much to her music anymore now, since she doesn't have much of any choreo to begin with. But back in the days, circa 99 when she did have choreography aplenty, she related to music in a very sophisticated and genuine way (especially in the 98 LP) that Cohen has never achieved.
I don't see much relation to music in Cohen's skating really. Perhaps when she was younger she did, especially the program where she skated to some Bach selection. It was much more on an unconscious level and came off as heart felt and not forced. Now I just don't see it. I'm sorry, but knowing how to emote with dramaric facial expression and hitting the charlotte spiral at the right beat of the music is not what I call "relation to music". Everytime she opens her program with a big O face I just feel like rolling my eyes, because that's not what the music at the moment dictates. I wonder if musicality is ever going to come back to her. There's perhaps a lot of excitement in Cohen's skating with all her wonderful tricks (done to visual perfection I'd have to say), but emotion? Not really.

 

[Isa-krisa]

Isa-krisa...

I'm just curious as to what personal choices of MK's make you not like her? I understand if you don't like her skating, that's your perogative, but MK is pretty private with her personal life, so I'm curious what you heard that she did.
My second question is why do you think she needs to apologize to Frank Carroll? (BTW it was months, not weeks before the Olympics that they split). IMO no skater needs to apologize for deciding to leave thier coach for whatever reason. They need to do what they feel is best for them and for thier career. Michelle has done it, Sasha has done it, Jenny K, Vika and countless others. As for your other opinions, I don't agree with most of them, but as I said that's your perogative to like or dislike whoevers skating/personality that you want.
BTW...I hope you realize I'm not out for an arguement. I just like to understand where other posters are coming from. The two things I asked about I honestly don't understand where they are coming from, so that's why I'm asking.

I understand we are not here to argue, and have no problem presenting my side.
As to her "personality", in view of her choices (that includes, costumes, music, choreo, technical content, public speaches, endorsement selections, choices of competitions she participates in, etc...), I find her, especially for her young age, to be very progmatic and "making skating, which is hobby, into business". To me Kwan, is not a young woman with a mad drive to excell to her max abilities, to "create", to "set new boundries", "to go all out" (like Johnny Weir, for example), but to me she is "Ms. Kwan Inc.". That is her choice, its not illegal - I just believe that a "true talent" goes more by an "internal drive" to move, move, move and create and create, and not be a "media and crowd's darling" because its more beneficial.

To me she is now acting like a "product" and not an "inspired athlete for Wold to conquere on her own terms, even if it means shocking the public". She is no "Neijinskii or Neureev or Isadora", that's for sure. I am wearry of people who are "liked by the masses" and "make a good use of it". Klimkin and Weir are "my kind of people".

About her break up with her coach. Given that I am absolutely convenced that MK is "progmatic to the bone", I think that she did it for a number of "progmatic reasons", which I don't care to list, and not because she "absolutely could not handle 1 more day with him". Even if it is the later, in my opinion, it would have been a lot more tactfull and graciouse (the adjective so commonly used in regards to Kwan) to wait just 2 more months and let the coach appear with her in the event. 2 months would not have made a difference, she would not have to even train with him. All she needed to do is let him be officially her coach, and if she won, he was absolutely ENTITLED to share in her glory after all the work he did with her. It would have been much more gracious towards him.
I read his interview "how MK informed him of the break up" and I don't think she did it properly and tactfully.

She is just too "progmatic" for my taste in ALL that she does, not a quality I respect from an "artistic athlete".

That's all.

 

[bronxgirl]

Please do not take this the wrong way, but do you mean pragmatic or too heavily programmed?

 

[RIskatingfan]

I wonder if Klimkin or Weir or any other skater in the US with Michelle's achievements and career woud not control their career (i.e. endorsements) the same way Michelle does... It's easy to think she looks like a product when nobody else in the US has achieved the success in skating she has.

Skating for a professional athlete is not a hobby, it's their living. I will wait to see what you have to say when Sasha Cohen begins to get all the endorsements and publicity Michelle has (if her success in skating will ever allow her that). Maybe it's not Michelle's "fault" that she's now a product in many people's eyes, but it's simply the way the "system" works. That's why it's easier to root for the underdogs.

BTW, I think you mean "pragmatic".

 

[RIskatingfan]

I agree that Kwan doesn't relate much to her music anymore now, since she doesn't have much of any choreo to begin with. But back in the days, circa 99 when she did have choreography aplenty, she related to music in a very sophisticated and genuine way (especially in the 98 LP

I don't share your opinion on Cohen, but I completely agree with the above quote. Lyra is not quite one of my favorite programs, but I agree that her 97 and 99 programs were just fabulous. I wish she had kept that style, choreography... I have enjoyed her SP's over the years but her LP's have gradually become weaker and weaker and the peak (I hope!) was last season's Tosca. What a shadow of those wonderful programs Michelle gave us in the past.

 

[Isa-krisa]

I wonder if Klimkin or Weir or any other skater in the US with Michelle's achievements and career woud not control their career (i.e. endorsements) the same way Michelle does... It's easy to think she looks like a product when nobody else in the US has achieved the success in skating she has.

Skating for a professional athlete is not a hobby, it's their living. I will wait to see what you have to say when Sasha Cohen begins to get all the endorsements and publicity Michelle has (if her success in skating will ever allow her that). Maybe it's not Michelle's "fault" that she's now a product in many people's eyes, but it's simply the way the "system" works. That's why it's easier to root for the underdogs.

BTW, I think you mean "pragmatic".

Thank you, I did mean "pragmatic".
Two things. Since you brought up "Sasha" and her endorsements. I am already not liking Sasha for letting Wagner "simplify" the content of her LP and what she did with it. I also don't like her taking out 3/3, while Sasha CAN do it.
If you CAN do it - do it! Show the best you can do! Go all the way!

About endorsements. This is far fetched and probably will get fury, but I'll say it.
Kwan's last big endorsement is "Chevy". "Chevy" is a "folk's"-wagen, it's not a special car becomeing of the "Kween".
At least Sasha is endorsed by Citizen watch, (with a diamond trimming). But I am sure she will soon be doing "Fast food" or other consumer products... I doubt any of the girls will choose to be in any "avant-garde" product commercials or will appear on Bill Maher's show.

About "professional athletes". Well, techically MK is an amateure. But its all mixed now.

I don't view "athletics" as "professions" especially for young people who are "college age". To me sport is a hobby, even if one is aiming for an Olympic medal. Debbie Thomas and Sarah H., are more of people that I approve of.

 

[bronxgirl]

Sorry Isa, that battle has been lost in this country. Even elite college athletes are rarely pure "amateur" in
the sense that they receive scholarships, and often money (that part may be unapproved by the NCAA, but it still happens all the time). They just keep pretending to be shocked by it.

 

[BronzeisGolden]

Isa-krisa,

I respect all of your opinions, but I feel that it is unfair to judge a situation such as Kwan's break up with Frank Carroll when you are looking purely from the outside. It is so easy for anyone else to say, "oh, she could have gone 2 more months". Could she have? I don't know. I didn't work with Frank Carroll on a daily basis for ten years. I wasn't intimately familiar with them and have no personal knowledge of exactly what type of relationship actually existed. To me, that is sort of like judging your neighbor that lives four houses down for leaving her husband...."Can you believe she did that! How could she? Oh, that poor man!".

I would make the same argument for Cohen leaving Tarasova. So many people seemed outraged by Sasha's decision. I could care less. Sasha made a personal decision and I can only assume that the girl knows herself better than anyone else....so, what is the big freakin deal? Are these two women not adults that are capable of making their own decisions? Need they be judged by fans that have never met them for managing the courses of their own prespecitive lives? I don't think so. I'll stick with commenting on the only thing I am intimately familiar with regarding Cohen & Kwan: what they do on the ice.

 

[Prettylayback]

Well, I really enoy Sasha but MK just bored me to tears. I don't see anything great about her...at all...I just really don't. Never liked MK...Probably never will. But I have met her. She was a very sweet women though. Just her skating that doesn't do anything for me.

 

[Isa-krisa]

Isa-krisa,

I respect all of your opinions, but I feel that it is unfair to judge a situation such as Kwan's break up with Frank Carroll when you are looking purely from the outside. It is so easy for anyone else to say, "oh, she could have gone 2 more months". Could she have? I don't know.

You are right that from "superficial media info" it's hard to tell what happened. I recall reading an interview with Carroll, sorry don't have a link, where he states in his own words what happened during last two days of their "cooperation". My recollection is that "Kwan went to practice that morning, cut it short, telling Carroll she'll call him later. Carroll thought there was something unusual about her behavior that practice. Later that evening, or the following morning she telephone him and either told him about "her plans", or made an appointment with him during that conversation "to meet shortly after to tell him about her plans". In either case, via a TELEPHONE conversation, he knew that "something is coming up". He also said that the whole issue was TOTALY UNEXPECTED by him, since all went fine before.

I will try to look for the interview on the web, but not sure if I can find it easily.

I can't compare Sasha's/TAT break up with this one. Both TAT and Cohens appeard in all interviews to be very "emotional about it". Their break up was not "cold cut" out of the blue. It was a result of growing conflict due to "strong personalities" on both sides. I see a lot of "human emotions" in what TAT says in Russian interviews, and what Mrs. Cohen says to the press and to people she knows.

Kwan's break up seems totaly "cold blooded" and "unemotional", I am sure Carroll has plenty of emotions, just keeps them inside, while Kwan seems to look at it as "business happened, business ended". Pretty pragmatic for a 22 year old!

 

[Tonichelle]

I, too, felt that the whole Carrol-Kwan split was left unresolved... not because of the media... but Frank's comments on several interviews... maybe they've resolved it since then... but I was very skeptical as to the reasons... however I've never been a fan of Frank Carrol either so *shrugs*

as I said earlier... I'm not a fan of either skater... but I know how tough it is to be a fan of both rivals online... it's so much easier when you don't go on to a message board strictly for one skater or the other... and have them totally bash you because *gasp* you like both. There are a lot of fanatics out there

that's why Golden Skate is considered my safe haven...

 

[Lucy25]

Everytime she opens her program with a big O face I just feel like rolling my eyes, because that's not what the music at the moment dictates.

I have nothing to add to this thread, but I could not agree more. I am so tired of seeing this! It has become so routine, that it is pretty humerous.

 

[Prettylayback]

You know what I think is sooo funny how people can say skaters emotion isn't genuin or it is forced. Like any one here knows how forced skaters emotions are on the ice...Does any one ever stop and think this is real emotion...People are so quick to say oh if you not making funny faces and grabbing your body every program (aka MK) then it isn't real emotion.

Note to Sasha: Make funny faces that what real emotion is.