Does COP reward difficult jumps adequately?

[antmanb]

Going back to some points in Antman's first post-

Some skaters did stop attempting more difficult jumps because the COP was not rewarding them adequately.

Shizuka used to do 3sal-3toe, and 3lutz-3toe but she has started doing just 3-2 because her second triple gets downgraded. I have no problem with a skater not getting full credit for an underrotated jump, but giving credit for a double is like giving zero credit. IMO the skater needs to receive at least partial credit for attempting the difficult combination. Otherwise skaters may be discouraged from pushing themselves athletically.

I haven't seen any of the GP so i didn't know that Arakawa had taken her 3/3s out and replaced them with 3/2. I really do disagree with the underrotating double penalty but (just to conradict myself) i'm glad they are doing something (although it is a little heavy handed) i thought Arakawa cheated all of her 3/3s in the short and long programs in Dortmund but she seemingly got credit for them.


Ant

 

[antmanb]

AFAIC, the one important thing CoP does not reward properly is not the difficulty but the quality of jumps.

Proper take-off versus lips and flutz, air position versus wrap, cheats (sometimes the caller does a good job in downgrading jumps), flow in and out, height and lenght of jumps are note taken enough into consideration in the GOE IMO. That is dramatic. The judges behind the system have nothing to do with the system itself and the base values related to each element but they have control on how the elements are rewarded and there is a lot of work to do in that area... :sheesh:

You see that's where the GOE is nonesensical, the ISU explanations are really difficult to read through - all that business fo there being 4 phases to a jump and how you work out the GOE based on various flawes or positive things (which aren't really listed) and then saying that if there is a paricular flaw in one phases then the whole jump cannot get more than base value.

If there are four phases to the jump then why not have GOEs of -4 tight the way to +4 and have the judges look at each phase and give a plus, a minus or nothing for each phases to arrive at the score so that if e.g. if th epreparation to a jump is telegraphed you get a -, if its not telegraphed then nothing and if its got difficult steps/moves into it then it gets a +, same with the take off - look at the edges into the jump. Flight - look at the height and air position and finally landing. then add up the total to get the GOE. You could then have the fall deduction so that a generally superior jump that result in a fall doesn't end up doing better than a flawed jump that is actually landed but at least this way it makes more sense than the 3 GOE.

Ant

 

[hockeyfan228]

3A 7.5
3F 5.5
3 Lz 6.0
2A 3.3
3Lo+2Lo+2Lo 8.0
3F+3Lo 10.5
3Lz+2Lo 8.0

Total base marks 48.8

She could change that 2A to a 3S and have an 8 triple performance!

Mathman

Ack -- Zayak violation:
2-3F's (3F 5.5, 3F+3Lo 10.5)
2-3Lz's (3 Lz 6.0, 3Lz+2Lo 8.0)
2-3Lo's (3Lo+2Lo+2Lo 8.0, 3Lz+2Lo 8.0)

She'd have to change the 3Lz+3Lo to a 3T, which knocks down the total point value.

 

[Vash01]

I haven't seen any of the GP so i didn't know that Arakawa had taken her 3/3s out and replaced them with 3/2. I really do disagree with the underrotating double penalty but (just to conradict myself) i'm glad they are doing something (although it is a little heavy handed) i thought Arakawa cheated all of her 3/3s in the short and long programs in Dortmund but she seemingly got credit for them.


Ant

Arakawa's cheats in Dortmund were nowhere as bad as Sarah Hughes' cheats in the 2002 Olympics. The 6.0 system often credited jumps with slight underrotation (more than 1/4), but the step outs, turnouts, two foots and stumbles were viewed in more negative light. I find the COP too lenient in that. There are skaters that cannot land a clean quad, but they get credit for an imperfect quad, with a negative GOE. A clean quad does get full marks, but the difference is not that big in the COP. It can be overcome easily with some other elements.

Vash

 

[mzheng]

If there are four phases to the jump then why not have GOEs of -4 tight the way to +4 and have the judges look at each phase and give a plus, a minus or nothing for each phases to arrive at the score so that if e.g. if th epreparation to a jump is telegraphed you get a -, if its not telegraphed then nothing and if its got difficult steps/moves into it then it gets a +, same with the take off - look at the edges into the jump. Flight - look at the height and air position and finally landing. then add up the total to get the GOE. You could then have the fall deduction so that a generally superior jump that result in a fall doesn't end up doing better than a flawed jump that is actually landed but at least this way it makes more sense than the 3 GOE.

Ant

I like this idea.

 

[mzheng]

I am going on with my list ...

5) Variety of jumps - For CoP a program with 5 triple jumps of 3 kind is not inferior to a program with 5 different triples! It can actually be of higher value if the repeated triples are the lutz and flip (for the ladies). That's the reason why we see women skaters without a 3-3 combo or sequence do a 6 triples routine without one of the jumps, of course their less favourite one. Kwan, Liashenko for instance can leave the loop jump home and not be worse off regarding CoP. Actually, as the flip is higher than the loop, they have a higher base score! One way to remedy to this flaw could be to weigh a jump higher on its first attempt (add 1-2 pts to its base value there, let's take 2 in the next examples). So that two 3F in a program would have a base value of : 5.5 + 2 + 5.5 = 13 and a 3F and a 3L : 5.5 + 2 + 5 + 2 = 14.5. That sounds better!

I like the idea too. I suggested the samething last season. The femal skaters doing all 5 different tripls and male 6 diff triples shall get extra point in total TES.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

That maybe a bit complicated. I think that there should be a deduction for not doing at least 4 different jumps besides the axel which is required. Mao does not do a salcow or a toe loop in her program. You can leave out 1 jump. If you do all 5 then you get rewarded. Encourage variety. Either that or give extra PCS points for somebody who does more variety of jumps.

I thinK we would have to rename the event from FREE SKATE to COMPULSORY SKATE.

jOE

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

From what I am reading about 'cheating' jumps and the judges not catching them, and apparently the arm chair judges do see these cheats from their angles, I would suggest that yet another team of judges be hired just to watch the execution of jumps. Obviously the Caller is not doing his job.

Joe

 

[Mafke]

The Free Skate hasn't been very free for a long time. Basically now there's a slightly shorter compulsory program and a slightly longer compulsory program. It makes no sense to me, but little about the format of skating competitions ever has.

 

[Vash01]

ITA. A slight digression from the main topic: I don't see the freedom of expressing different kinds of music. Everyone wants to do change of edge spins, Sasha spiral, Irina Biellman, and so on. Plus everyone must do jumps from footwork, and add a footwork sequence (reminds me of gymanstics floor exercise). In all this, the real beauty of FS- the individuality of the skater and the uniqueness of the musical interpretation are lost.

Vash

 

[Mathman]

That is an excellent point, Vash. I have noticed this especially for footwork. It's time for some footwork, so the skater kicks up his heels while the music drones on in the backgroud without change of tempo or mood. And there does not seem to be much interest anymore in matching highlight moments on the ice with highlight moments in the musical score.

MM

 

[Doggygirl]

That is an excellent point, Vash. I have noticed this especially for footwork. It's time for some footwork, so the skater kicks up his heels while the music drones on in the backgroud without change of tempo or mood. And there does not seem to be much interest anymore in matching highlight moments on the ice with highlight moments in the musical score.

MM

To me, this raises a different question that I find interesting. Are the *teams* (whoever is involved in the music cut decisions) working closely with the choreographes (who now need to consider Levels of elements like footwork as they plan the programs)? And are the judges taking this choreographic planning into consideration?

I suspect varying degrees of "no" across the top skaters on one or more of these questions.

BUT...I hope skating evolves to the point where it IS important to choreo difficult non-jump moves with the music, and make a better attempt at the "whole."

I hope to see skaters like Buttle, Weir, and others out there who are making a huge effort (at least that's my impression) to pull this all together. IMO, THAT is what will limit skaters who just put music (or muzak) in the background without regard to the choreographic impact, etc.

2 more cents - I seem to have too much spare change in this Oly season -

DG

 

[Mathman]

I have wondered about that very thing, Doggygirl. I'm not sure it is any worse under the NJS, but why wouldn't the choreographer and the person who selects the music be one and the same? Like Lori Nichol. I am pretty sure that she does most of the music selection and cuts for her clients.

Certainly that was her hallmark when she was working with Michelle. She showed such a "fine Italian hand" with the music that the choreogrphy just seemed to flow out of it by necessity.

On the other hand, I have read that when Sandra Bezic choreographer Tara's Anastasia program she didn't like the music that Tara insisted on. Bezic eventually gave up the fight, figuring that it was more important that Tara like the music than that it had any serious merit.

After creating the program, Bezic never worked with Tara on it and pretty much saw it for the first time at the Olympics, like everyone else.

MM

 

[Doggygirl]

I have wondered about that very thing, Doggygirl. I'm not sure it is any worse under the NJS, but why wouldn't the choreographer and the person who selects the music be one and the same? Like Lori Nichol. I am pretty sure that she does most of the music selection and cuts for her clients.

Certainly that was her hallmark when she was working with Michelle. She showed such a "fine Italian hand" with the music that the choreogrphy just seemed to flow out of it by necessity.

On the other hand, I have read that when Sandra Bezic choreographer Tara's Anastasia program she didn't like the music that Tara insisted on. Bezic eventually gave up the fight, figuring that it was more important that Tara like the music than that it had any serious merit.

After creating the program, Bezic never worked with Tara on it and pretty much saw it for the first time at the Olympics, like everyone else.

MM

I truly don't think it's better, or worse under NJS. Teams either work well together, or they don't. In my own opionion, I think far fewer teams "connect" at this level, than don't. But I love watchin' all of them!!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think Morozov's footwork choreography for Alexei started the bandwagon for footwork. It was always a requrements but, imo, very much over looked. The point of footwork is for the skater to show off his ability to make use of his basics skills. (There are no school figures anymore). But no one took it seriously despite the fact that everyone loved Brownings footwork. which of course was not structured into straightline or circular but the more difficult entirety of the program.

But thanks to Alexei, these basics are being looked at, and they are a requirement. However, I prefer David Wilson's take on this. While he satisfies the requirement to have straightline and circular in his programs, he continues to have basics throughout the entire programs that he choreographs. This is making 'stop and pose' moments obsolete because the skater must constantly be performing. It also limits the crossovers from dominating the program.

However, many skaters using the Wilson method are having problems with their big elements. They are not used to executing an element from a series of basic varied turns. Much easier to skate around in crossovers, and then do the straightline and circular footwork separately. I think footwork throughout a program separates the boys from the men and girls of the ladies.

Joe

 

[antmanb]

I think Morozov's footwork choreography for Alexei started the bandwagon for footwork. It was always a requrements but, imo, very much over looked. The point of footwork is for the skater to show off his ability to make use of his basics skills. (There are no school figures anymore). But no one took it seriously despite the fact that everyone loved Brownings footwork. which of course was not structured into straightline or circular but the more difficult entirety of the program.

But thanks to Alexei, these basics are being looked at, and they are a requirement. However, I prefer David Wilson's take on this. While he satisfies the requirement to have straightline and circular in his programs, he continues to have basics throughout the entire programs that he choreographs. This is making 'stop and pose' moments obsolete because the skater must constantly be performing. It also limits the crossovers from dominating the program.

However, many skaters using the Wilson method are having problems with their big elements. They are not used to executing an element from a series of basic varied turns. Much easier to skate around in crossovers, and then do the straightline and circular footwork separately. I think footwork throughout a program separates the boys from the men and girls of the ladies.

Joe

With reference to your last paragraph i think that CoP is trying to make skating more like this, it isn't helped by the blatantly cheating judges giving totally made up PCS scores, but remember that the PCS scores are supposed to be the percentage of time the skater spends doing the various things so interpretation and choreogrpahy, if the skaters is using teh music throughout the whole program, the jumps are choreographed in places where it makes snse to jump, the spins aren't just thrown in because they have to, rather because themusic, phrasing etc lends itslef to a spin section, and every last step on the ice choroegprahed to fit with the music then and noly then can you truly say those things have been in place for 100% of teh program and therefore get 10.0 for the PCS in those areas.

That being the way the scoring system is meant to be going then i think its going in the right direction. The joke is what the judges are doing with it...point in case is many fans reactions to Irina's PCS scores being in the 8s when reportedly she is most certinaly not doing anything choreographically for as much as 80% of the programs and many people have noted that she has barely any transitions in the LP so the mark in that area is totally unjustified.

If the judges did their jobs properly then maybe this system would reward genuinely artistic skaters and get us to where we want to be in terms of balancing the basic skating/artistry with teh big technical elements. Unfortunately my general disdain for teh crooked judges stops me from believing this will ever happen.

Ant

 

[mzheng]

That being the way the scoring system is meant to be going then i think its going in the right direction. The joke is what the judges are doing with it...point in case is many fans reactions to Irina's PCS scores being in the 8s when reportedly she is most certinaly not doing anything choreographically for as much as 80% of the programs and many people have noted that she has barely any transitions in the LP so the mark in that area is totally unjustified.

If the judges did their jobs properly then maybe this system would reward genuinely artistic skaters and get us to where we want to be in terms of balancing the basic skating/artistry with teh big technical elements. Unfortunately my general disdain for teh crooked judges stops me from believing this will ever happen.

Ant

That's what I first thought the CoP will lead to "Well balanced program, and whole pakage skater".......But the way the system defined and the way it is used is far from perfect and in some earea even worse than 6.0.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Antmanb and mzeng - Couldn't agree with you more. One more reason for separating the tech judges from the Pcs judges.

Joe

 

[Vash01]

With reference to your last paragraph i think that CoP is trying to make skating more like this, it isn't helped by the blatantly cheating judges giving totally made up PCS scores, but remember that the PCS scores are supposed to be the percentage of time the skater spends doing the various things so interpretation and choreogrpahy, if the skaters is using teh music throughout the whole program, the jumps are choreographed in places where it makes snse to jump, the spins aren't just thrown in because they have to, rather because themusic, phrasing etc lends itslef to a spin section, and every last step on the ice choroegprahed to fit with the music then and noly then can you truly say those things have been in place for 100% of teh program and therefore get 10.0 for the PCS in those areas.

That being the way the scoring system is meant to be going then i think its going in the right direction. The joke is what the judges are doing with it...point in case is many fans reactions to Irina's PCS scores being in the 8s when reportedly she is most certinaly not doing anything choreographically for as much as 80% of the programs and many people have noted that she has barely any transitions in the LP so the mark in that area is totally unjustified.

If the judges did their jobs properly then maybe this system would reward genuinely artistic skaters and get us to where we want to be in terms of balancing the basic skating/artistry with teh big technical elements. Unfortunately my general disdain for teh crooked judges stops me from believing this will ever happen.

Ant

If I understand this correct, the PCS marks are not just for the number of transitions in the program, or for skating the whole program without stopping. They include basic skating skills and Irina has some of the best where the blades/edges are concerned. For example she gets rewarded for holding steady edges while -for example- Sasha does not (but she makes up for it by holding great extensions).I disagree that Irina has no transitions in her programs. Have you seen her programs this season? Her LP has no stops at all. The PCS marks also include the overall quality of the program; they are the equivalent of the presentation marks under the 6.0 system. We will always see some subjectivity in them because FS is a subjective sport. In fact skaters like Jeff Buttle have benefitted greatly under the new system. In the 6.0 system nobody would have given him the high presentation marks after making 4 technical mistakes in an LP.

I want to go back to my original question- whether COP rewards jumps adequately and it probably does not. It has room for improvement, so you cannot blame everything on the PCS scores and accuse the judges of cheating. I think they are going with their personal preference, just like you are going with yours.

Vash

 

[BronzeisGolden]

Great discussion, guys! I have enjoyed reading all of this. I also don't understand why falls are not penalized more. Personally, I find that they severely disrupt the flow of a program. I love Jeffrey Buttle and greatly appreciate his fine line and numerous other qualities. However, he spends so much time picking himself up off the ice or recovering from a stumble that I find myself very underwhelmed by the overall performance. I don't see how the PCS scores aren't more affected by this. Certainly, jumps aren't everything. But, you have to give credit to anyone that can successfully complete a clean program. That should be given more weight. It is a very difficult thing to do, and, overall, is more rewarding. Now, it seems, everyone is too busy trying to play by the numbers (contorting themselves into awkward/ill-performed pretzels, etc.). I wish they would just go with what they do best (and what looks best on them). COP does not encourage this. It rewards technically difficult moves (well, some, not all) over those that are more aesthetically pleasing....thus I feel, we are seeing difficult and admirable moves done in a sub-par fashion on a large scale, or impressive moves performed to adnaseum in the same program. COP has its merits, but these are the main negative points that, IMO, are changing the sport in a bad way. Overall, I honestly don't see that it is that much better than the 6.0 system. ....but that is just my opinion.