Dornbush to replace Abbott at 4CC's

[sweetskates1]

I see.

Stephane Lambiel was amazing. I miss him every time I watch a fs video. His skating is just so special, specially his spins.

I have seen videos of Kurt competing in pro championships where he is very entertaining and just awesome. I think I was way too little to remember him competing at Olympics or Worlds.

Takahashi is sensual and powerful at once. Definitely one of my favorites.

I prefer to enjoy them all rather than comparing them. How do you compare Lambiel, Browning, and Takahashi, from program to program, for example, although Takahashi's Amelie is very Lambialesque, as choregraphed by Lambiel. It also takes time to mature and develop styles and versatility. Browning developed his greatly and mostly after his amateur competitive career.

In competitions under COP system, judges have bullet points to go by. We have to remember competition programs are very different form show programs. The artistry has to be expressed under the constraints and while performing the most difficult elements and skating. The difficulty level also raises the scores. Artistry via full body expression while skating with exquisite skills are valued more than artistry expressed via facial expressions and moves while standing still or during slow and labored skating.

 

[sweetskates1]

Wow, who coached her? Did she not have a choreographer? If she was such as an amazing jumper why did she not invest the time in fixing the other aspects of her skating?

Surya Bonaly had powerful jumps, but skated on flat blades with zero use of edging. She was strictly a jumper and was sorely lacking in artistry.

 

[dorispulaski]

The problem is that "not pretty by my standards" is often equated with "no artistry"
And "not pretty by my standards" can be "of my ethnicity or race" I'm sad to say.
There are certainly skaters that I have feared were not being rewarded properly because of their race & ethnicity.

In her earlier years, Debi Thomas met with a lot of it. Her mother used to answer Debi's question about why she was scored below some little girl doing double when Debi was doing triples, "That little girl has blonde hair." Nuff said.

With Surya, chuckm is right, and there were certainly non jump issues that she should have been scored down for.

One reason I am glad that "artistry" is no longer a big deal in PCS scoring.

 

[sweetskates1]

That is so sad! Poor Debi! I think that cultural diversity should be celebrated in the sport. It would expand the fan base! I believe that artistry and intensity should still be rewarded. If it ceases to be important, figure skating will become unwatchable. The problem is that no one can ever agree on what "artistry" is.

The problem is that "not pretty by my standards" is often equated with "no artistry"
And "not pretty by my standards" can be "of my ethnicity or race" I'm sad to say.
There are certainly skaters that I have feared were not being rewarded properly because of their race & ethnicity.

In her earlier years, Debi Thomas met with a lot of it. Her mother used to answer Debi's question about why she was scored below some little girl doing double when Debi was doing triples, "That little girl has blonde hair." Nuff said.

With Surya, chuckm is right, and there were certainly non jump issues that she should have been scored down for.

One reason I am glad that "artistry" is no longer a big deal in PCS scoring.

 

[chuckm]

Bonaly was coached by HER MOTHER and it seemed as if her mother thought Surya's skating was perfect.

 

[sweetskates1]

Oh wow... that is terrible. I wonder how much better Bonaly could have been had she been properly trained!

Bonaly was coached by HER MOTHER and it seemed as if her mother thought Surya's skating was perfect.

 

[Tonichelle]

well as an adult, Surya still doesn't see HER skating as the problem, but all the others (or did as of the late 90s early 00s in an interview) so I don't think it was JUST her mom who had this idea that she was doing just fine (girl won silver and wasn't happy about it, not the ISU's fault IMO)

 

[Poodlepal]

I remember hearing that he was a devout Greek Orthodox worshiper. I'd assume it was from Mom's side. Lysacek is a Czech name, I think (don't know for sure).

I do believe that 1-3 should go to Worlds (or 1-2), and the next 3 should go to 4CC's. Period. If you have a bad year or are injured even, too bad. All it does when they don't do that is make conspiracy theories.

Supposing they decided, "Hmm, as a former junior Grand Prix champ, we know the judges like Ricky. So let's give him another chance. He did so well last year. Armin doesn't have the love of the international judges, he's less likely to medal." This is what I think probably happened.

But we don't know. So now the FSA is racist, Armin is a discrimination victim, Ricky is a politically-incorrect fall guy, we don't know what Carriere and the rest of the passed over are thinking. Now everyone's suspicious of each other, and it may be for nothing.

They do owe Armin an explanation, and if HE feels it was based on anti-Iranian bias, he should hire a lawyer. He may not feel that way at all. As most of the people at 4CC's will not be white--most are from Japan and China--passing over a guy from a part of Asia for non-skating reasons is just plain stupid.

BTW--Armin never struck me as being gay.

 

[Olympia]

I see.

Stephane Lambiel was amazing. I miss him every time I watch a fs video. His skating is just so special, specially his spins.

I have seen videos of Kurt competing in pro championships where he is very entertaining and just awesome. I think I was way too little to remember him competing at Olympics or Worlds.

Takahashi is sensual and powerful at once. Definitely one of my favorites.

Welcome, Sweetskates!

Those three guys are just about my favorites ever. I'm so thrilled that one of my top skaters ever, Takahashi, is still an active competitive skater. He's just magical.

As for Surya, if there was any element of racism in her judging (and one can't guarantee there wasn't), her scores weren't helped by her lack of blade skills. She had no variation of direction, and as was pointed out, she had really no edges. In 1994, she had the misfortune of going against someone with wonderful blade skills, Yuka Sato, on Sato's home turf. So the fact that she won silver instead of gold can be explained by a lot of things besides racism. Surya had started out as a tumbler, I believe, and what she brought to the ice was sheer athleticism. As chuckm points out, her coach was her mother, and no one ever told Suzanne Bonaly what to do. However, just by showing up and by getting herself into the top ranks of skating, Surya made things a bit easier for the next black skater who comes along. (And I wish one would show up in ladies' singles...it's way past the time for that!) I gather she's a very popular pro skater. Debi Thomas, who preceded Surya by a few years, had far superior skills; she moved beautifully on the ice, and thank goodness, she did get a world gold. She could have won the Olympic gold, but she clutched and fell apart in the long program, after having won the short. I'm really sorry that happened; she was to me a far more interesting skater than Witt.

Your point about skating needing diversity is finally coming true. Now, Asian skaters are a crucial part of the world scene, and not just those from Asian countries. Look at the Shibutanis, Amanda Evora of Evora/Ladwig, Kristi Yamaguchi, Patrick Chan, and of course our Kween, Michelle Kwan. As for skaters of African heritage, finally another has won a world championship: Robin Szolkowy, whose father I think was Angolan. (I hope someone will correct me if I'm wrong on this.) We can't know now whether his very presence on the ice is serving to inspire other black skaters. I sure hope it is!

As for Armin, it never occurred to me that racism played a part in the choice of Dornbush over him. By this time in America, we've got skaters from everywhere (see my earlier paragraphs). Why would an Iranian be singled out? I'm sure everyone on the various committees remembers how excited most viewers were to see Tugba Karademir of Turkey. Whatever some Americans feel about Middle Easterners, the viewing public of skating events seems to be much more welcoming and tolerant. But I don't know whether other evidence will come out, and if any does, certainly it must be investigated fully.

 

[sweetskates1]

Wow, that is unfortunate.

well as an adult, Surya still doesn't see HER skating as the problem, but all the others (or did as of the late 90s early 00s in an interview) so I don't think it was JUST her mom who had this idea that she was doing just fine (girl won silver and wasn't happy about it, not the ISU's fault IMO)

 

[Violet Bliss]

I watched part of the Canadian Nationals at my neighbours'. They are from Barbados and are tennis fans, not skating fans though they know a few big names. When Ice Dancers Ralph/Hill took to the ice, he perked up with amazement. "A black skater!" I forgot how rare black skaters still are. So I told him how good they were and was very happy to explain to him that they would go to Worlds even though they came in 4th. I told him about Robin Scholkowy the World Champion in Pairs and the crazily musical Maxime Billy Fortin and searched pictures and youtube to show them. (They knew Bonaly.)

I hope I can convert them to be more interested in figure skating. Diversity helps expand fan base.

 

[sweetskates1]

Evan's wiki page states that he is of Czeck and Italian descent. He definitely follows the Greek Orthodox religion from what I can remember from interviews.

I guess sending 1-3 to Worlds and 4-6 to FCC would make it easier and less controversial. It is just that figure skating is such a controversial and subjective sport anyway. It seems so inflexible to not consider other things such as reputation, likelihood to medal ect.

I honestly do not care at all whether our fs athletes are black, white, pink, yellow, gray, biracial, a mini melting pot, homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual, unisexual, trisexual, transexual ect ect. Why should it matter to anyone? Brian Boitano and Brian Orser have been amazing ambassadors of the sports and they are homosexual. Rudy Galindo is an inspiration, even for non-figure skating fans. He is an athlete that beat the odds. The USFSA should not be racist or sexist, they should just pick the athletes that would best represent the US. It is so upsetting to think that either race or sexual orientation matters in figure skating. It is 2012 ******! Why can we not celebrate our differences?

I remember hearing that he was a devout Greek Orthodox worshiper. I'd assume it was from Mom's side. Lysacek is a Czech name, I think (don't know for sure).

I do believe that 1-3 should go to Worlds (or 1-2), and the next 3 should go to 4CC's. Period. If you have a bad year or are injured even, too bad. All it does when they don't do that is make conspiracy theories.

Supposing they decided, "Hmm, as a former junior Grand Prix champ, we know the judges like Ricky. So let's give him another chance. He did so well last year. Armin doesn't have the love of the international judges, he's less likely to medal." This is what I think probably happened.

But we don't know. So now the FSA is racist, Armin is a discrimination victim, Ricky is a politically-incorrect fall guy, we don't know what Carriere and the rest of the passed over are thinking. Now everyone's suspicious of each other, and it may be for nothing.

They do owe Armin an explanation, and if HE feels it was based on anti-Iranian bias, he should hire a lawyer. He may not feel that way at all. As most of the people at 4CC's will not be white--most are from Japan and China--passing over a guy from a part of Asia for non-skating reasons is just plain stupid.

BTW--Armin never struck me as being gay.

 

[Tonichelle]

Welcome, Sweetskates!

Those three guys are just about my favorites ever. I'm so thrilled that one of my top skaters ever, Takahashi, is still an active competitive skater. He's just magical.

As for Surya, if there was any element of racism in her judging (and one can't guarantee there wasn't), her scores weren't helped by her lack of blade skills. She had no variation of direction, and as was pointed out, she had really no edges. In 1994, she had the misfortune of going against someone with wonderful blade skills, Yuka Sato, on Sato's home turf. So the fact that she won silver instead of gold can be explained by a lot of things besides racism. Surya had started out as a tumbler, I believe, and what she brought to the ice was sheer athleticism. As chuckm points out, her coach was her mother, and no one ever told Suzanne Bonaly what to do. However, just by showing up and by getting herself into the top ranks of skating, Surya made things a bit easier for the next black skater who comes along. (And I wish one would show up in ladies' singles...it's way past the time for that!) I gather she's a very popular pro skater. Debi Thomas, who preceded Surya by a few years, had far superior skills; she moved beautifully on the ice, and thank goodness, she did get a world gold. She could have won the Olympic gold, but she clutched and fell apart in the long program, after having won the short. I'm really sorry that happened; she was to me a far more interesting skater than Witt.

Your point about skating needing diversity is finally coming true. Now, Asian skaters are a crucial part of the world scene, and not just those from Asian countries. Look at the Shibutanis, Amanda Evora of Evora/Ladwig, Kristi Yamaguchi, Patrick Chan, and of course our Kween, Michelle Kwan. As for skaters of African heritage, finally another has won a world championship: Robin Szolkowy, whose father I think was Angolan. (I hope someone will correct me if I'm wrong on this.) We can't know now whether his very presence on the ice is serving to inspire other black skaters. I sure hope it is!

As for Armin, it never occurred to me that racism played a part in the choice of Dornbush over him. By this time in America, we've got skaters from everywhere (see my earlier paragraphs). Why would an Iranian be singled out? I'm sure everyone on the various committees remembers how excited most viewers were to see Tugba Karademir of Turkey. Whatever some Americans feel about Middle Easterners, the viewing public of skating events seems to be much more welcoming and tolerant. But I don't know whether other evidence will come out, and if any does, certainly it must be investigated fully.

Olympia I love you!

 

[demarinis5]

Olympia definitely the post of the week! :thumbsup:

 

[Mathman]

I guess sending 1-3 to Worlds and 4-6 to FCC would make it easier and less controversial. It is just that figure skating is such a controversial and subjective sport anyway. It seems so inflexible to not consider other things such as reputation, likelihood to medal ect.

I see it as a fairness issue. What if you beat the stew out of the competition at Nationals, but then some big-wig on a committee said you can't go to worlds because the person you beat has a better "reputation."

As they say, don't tell me I'm underrated -- rate me! :yes:

 

[Violet Bliss]

At least Jeremy's condition is not serious, mainly due to fatigue.


Jeremy Abbott withdraws from Four Continents Championship due to back spasms

I have recently come across this video of poor Yuna made to skate to qualify for Worlds 2007 in spite of her back injury which had forced her to withdraw from the Korean Nationals, just because they didn't want to hand her the berth even though she had won international medals.


http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/RW19SAzQxSY/?resourceId=0_06_02_99?fr=1

 

[Olympia]

Thanks, Toni!

SF, I am heartened to hear that your friends from Barbados responded to the presence of black skaters onscreen. Your point about diversity's expanding the fan base is so crucial to the whole issue. Look at how skating has captured the enthusiastic attention of Asia. A diverse group of skaters leads to more fans. It also leads to a wider pool of skaters. What would skating today be without the likes of Shen/Zhao, Mao Asada, Daisuke Takahashi, and YuNa Kim (the latter having brought the entire country of South Korea with her into the skating world)? My feeling is that this is a great moment in skating, heralding a new vitality in our sport.

 

[Mathman]

At least Jeremy's condition is not serious, mainly due to fatigue.

http://www.freep.com/article/201202...ur-Continents-Championship-due-to-back-spasms

Sounds like Jeremy thought it was better to rest up and prepare for worlds at a less hectic pace. Happens a lot. Alissa probably wouldn't have gone, either.

In the past the top U.S. skaters have rarely wanted to do Four Continents. The ISU tried to encourage participation in various ways, like giving points toward the (now discontinued) money prize for the top season point-getter, with some success in the most recent years.

 

[Violet Bliss]

I thought Jeremy wanted to add a quad to his SP at 4CC. It would have been his only chance to try it before Worlds.

With today's skating ranks in mind, I think of 4CC as one of the more prestigious, after Worlds and GPF, and certainly more challenging than Euros. Most of the Worlds medal contenders are at this event, especially if Jeremy were to compete.

 

[dorispulaski]

They are now using the stick instead of the carrot (money). If you are not in the top scores of the year list at the appropriate level, no GP events for you. At least those skaters not going to worlds, or who feel their chances of a top score are better at 4CC's will definitely go.