Edges

[tharrtell]

Edges

Okay, so I've learned to differentiate between good edges and not-so-good edges, but what I still don't understand what makes deep edges (or the degree of lean?) difficult. From the perspective of watching skating, deep edges just seem more secure than skating on the flat. Wouldn't that make skating overall easier when good edging technique is mastered? Why don't skaters learn good technique to begin with?

Clearly, I'm in need of more education!

tharrtell

 

[AY2006]

Re: Edges

I think it's harder to sustain deeper edges because you are leaning more. Usually, the faster you skate the easier it is to sustain the lean, because you have the forward/backward momentum. (The same way you can lean more on a bicycle if you are moving faster.) I guess those who can lean without much speed have good body control.

 

[mathman444]

Re: Edges

I hope that the experts will contribute to this thread. From my idiot's point of few, it always seemed to me that if "deep edges" -- whatever that meant -- were a good thing, well, why don't all skaters work on that and get them?

The first time I ever saw a really impressive edge was 13-year-old Naomi Nam appearing in a Kristi Yamaguchi Christmas special. Naomi came out for her bow on a mind-boggling single continuous spiral edge starting at the boards and tracing a perfect Archimedian spiral ending up front and center of the line for the final bow. Wow!

Mathman

PS. BTW, is that why they call it a "spiral?" I never really understood why in skating the word "spiral" meant "raise
your leg way up." OK, but where does the "spiral" come in?

 

[Princess Leppard 625]

Re: Edges

<span style="colorurple;font-family:georgia;font-size:x-small;">I started skating, at age 33, about six months ago. Edges are just about the most terrifying thing to do. Inside edges were quite easy for me, it's the right outside edge that is going to be the death of me. I'm getting better, but it's a matter of trusting yourself, and I'm not very good at that...

Skating on the flat is a piece of cake, which is why I wish Sasha would get her Charlotte over on an edge, and then I'd be REALLY impressed.

Cheers,

Laura </span>

 

[tharrtell]

Re: Edges

I like the bicycle analogy as that is something that I actually know! When I'm on my bike, I lean the most when I'm going downhill (i.e. with speed) and around a corner. Any curve requires lean, but there is more security at higher speed (to a point!). Can a skater curve without an edge? Doesn't seem likely to me. MK has great edges, but I don't think I've ever seen her credited with significant speed. How does that work?

 

[nthuz]

Re: Edges

Yes MM, you are correct. To do a true spiral is to sustain an arabesque on an edge that moves in a spiral pattern on the ice.

 

[Jimmy Hoffa 2]

Re: Edges

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>BTW, is that why they call it a "spiral?" I never really understood why in skating the word "spiral" meant "raise your leg way up." OK, but where does the "spiral" come in?[/quote]
The origin of "spiral" I was given is that a spiral is an extended move on an edge. If you're on an edge, you'll go in a circle, the longer you stay on the edge, the smaller your circle will become, therefore leaving a spiral shaped tracing on the ice.

 

[mathman444]

Re: Edges

That's very interesting. Why does the circle get smaller? Because you are slowing down? (Like a companion star falling into the accretion disc of a black hole?) Does the skater have to change the angle of attack to maintain balance?

The final move of Michelle's FOG is a spiral all the way down to a point, where she actually brushes the ice with her hand to sustain the last tiny circle. I will have to study that some more.

Mathman

 

[sspye]

Re: Edges

I know that this website doesn't explain 'good' edges vs. 'bad' edges. But it does show what the bottom of the skating blade looks like.

<a href="http://sk8stuff.com/f_recog/recog_edges.htm" target="top">sk8stuff.com/f_recog/recog_edges.htm</a>

Here is the homepage for this particular sight if you are interested in learning more about other elements. They have lots to look at even great descriptions of jumps/spins.

<a href="http://sk8stuff.com/default.asp" target="top">sk8stuff.com/default.asp</a>

Actually, I am not that fond of Michelle's crossover's. They don't have the deep, effective 'edge' like Sarah does. However, regarding 'edge control during a spiral', I give this award to Michelle. Laura, was it you that mentioned about Sasha doing a Charlotte on edge? That would be a really magnificent and difficult move!!! I never thought of that.

Anyway, just an opinion from someone from the 'school figures' days.

Denise

 

[FetalAttraction]

Re: Edges

Michelle does a charlotte on edge, where she goes from a typical charlotte from a flat into a small but sustained spiral. I'm not sure if Sasha has done such a thing. Michelle has fabulous edges even when not in a spiral, just rewatch the Hershey's challenge thing where they replayed the waving barley move from FOG in slow motion.

 

[LADSKATER]

Re: Edges

Edge education begins in the school figures; This is where a skater really learns the difference between inside and outside edges and good edge control. Edges are very important to a skater, particularly to ice dancers. They probably pay more attention to them then free skaters do. However, a good technical skater will know the difference in good quality edges. They need them for stroking and performing moves such as a spiral and a spread eagle or a three turn. In order to produce a good edge - the skater must "lean" the entire body to the right or left either outside (using the outside edge of the blade) or inside (using the inside edge of the blade). The body must be in line - the shoulders and the hips checked of course. A good deep knee bend is also helpful; especially for ice dance and figures. The move should be effortless. When one looks at the ice, there should be only one edge mark - not two - which would indicate a flat. Judges used to get on their hands and knees to examine figures to see if the skater was on a true edge or a flat and marked accordingly. This is why figures are so grueling. It takes hours and hours of practice to perfect figures and learn how to execute them.

Russian ice dancers are superb at executing deep edges. That's why they are so hard to beat. Watch the ice dancers stroke around; when you see them really "get into their knees" you will see some deep edges - Shae-lynn Bourne is one of the best skaters on the planet.
Watch Vic and Shae - they really use deep edges.

Well here I am rambling! I think this is my longest reply ever. I love edges and it has taken me years to really understand them and execute them myself. When I was a young skater I didn't really appreciate why they were so important. Now I do and when I skate, I know the difference.

Ladskater

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>"Oh I Wish I Had A River I Could Skate Away On.."[/quote]

 

[Joesitz]

Re: Edges

Ice Dancing utilizes all forms of edgings. It depends on choreography and the music. Pairs, too, but, imo, not as much.

I don't want to open a can of worms, so I won't mention any names, but there are many singles skaters who could use some lessons in edging. It's much more than the lutz.

Joe

 

[icenut84]

Re: Edges

Skating on edges is something that can take beginners a long time to achieve and to feel comfortable with, and until they crack it, edges often seem totally impossible, particularly outside edges. All skaters can skate on edges once they progress, but not all can skate on edges as deep as others. Like others have mentioned, Michelle and Irina are two skaters who do use their edges well, whereas Sasha doesn't use her edges as well. Learning to use and feel comfortable using deep edges is a very slow process and one that you will probably never stop improving and practicing. It's something that can always be improved. It's not just the lean that's important, but having the edges clean (no scratching etc) and to be totally in control and on-centre, also is something skaters will work on constantly until they hang up their skates. Deep edges certainly aren't easy. Like on Sasha's site, she said something about practicing back 3 turns with her jumps which helps balance. Even she continues to do exercises for balance etc. Likewise, skaters continue to improve their edges. Unless they neglect them that is, which a few probably do, and then they won't be as good or solid and the skater will also not be able to do as many things as people with better edges.

(Hmm, was that all waffle? lol)

 

[tharrtell]

Re: Edges

LAD,

Awesome post! Thanks so much for the information. You make a lot of sense.

tharrtell

 

[sk8m8]

Re: Edges

Edges, by the way, are what make the beautiful exits on jumps, as well. It's why so many jumps just seem to "stop" at the end instead of run out. If a skater, such as Todd Eldrige ( who has fabulous edging) jumps cleanly, he will land on a solid deep edge and have a great runout on the jump. This is very difficut to do since it is essential on most jumps to be perpendicular to the ice in the rotation part of the jump. That means you are going from a straigh "up and down" postion to a plie (or knee bend) and "grabbing" an edge to keep the flow of the momentum going. One of the few things holding Sasha C back is her lack of ability ( at this time) to do this. She jumps straight up and down and lands the same way. This is why (IMHO) that she isn't as consistant in landing some of her jumps as she could be. Inconveniece be damned, I say bring "patch" back and use it as a 15-25% qualification for competitions. I betcha two things will happen; one, you'll see better edging ( Brian Boitano and Brian Orser spring to mind) , and two, you'll see less injuries because the jumping beans won't be jumping so soon without the secure edges required to skate figures. Being able to do a 3Xaxel at 13 is great, but it sorta loses its meaning if you are disabled at 15 because you don't have the technique to sustain what you are doing.

 

[rgirl181]

Re: Edges

Love this thread! I love getting into discussions of what good edges actually are (and are not) and examples of them. One slight disagreement with Sk8m8 about SC's jumps, however: As I've said before, when I saw her live I was struck by how she jumped with too much "out" and not enough "up." I think the reasons her landings grind to a stop or otherwise get out of control is that she is too far forward on the landings because of the overemphasis on forward momentum and thus ends up with the toepick digging into the ice and stopping her flow. It's hard to see on TV, but it was very evident live. I agree that she tends to have poor runout on her landings, but just for a different reason than jumping straight up and down. I've always maintained that a lot of Sasha's weaknesses in edging have to do with the relatively late start she got in skating (age nine) compared with Sarah and Michelle, for example (age three). By nine, Sasha already had triple jumps to master, so did not have as much time to spend on edges. Bummr for her, which is why I think she talks about Tatiana telling her she has to take "three steps at once" to get ahead. Also, as a three-year-old, you can master fear over things like deep edges more easily (if you have the talent) than if you start at a later age.

But I do agree about the strength of Sasha's stroking. I was impressed when I saw her live with her speed, ice coverage, and her stroking. She has great knee bend with soft flexion in the hips, knees, and ankles that, when combined with proper technique and strength, give her crossovers good power. Though nobody compares to the Russians on this--Abt blew everyone away in this respect at this same event. In fact I was just watching Michelle's SP the other day (I FINALLY got the download to work--needed to fix RealPlayer, and of course when I fixed it, 12 other things broke:lol: ) and I was able to pay particular attention to her stroking. I think she's got a limited amount of flexion in her knees, hips, and ankles and it makes her stroking shallow, plus makes it tough for her to generate speed. The example Fetal talked about--the "waves of barley" section of FOG that they showed in slow motion--is one I've mentioned before where the use of her knees and ankles is at it's best. I've talked about it as being an example of "If Michelle skated like that all the time [meaning with that quality of movement through the whole body, the soft knees and ankles, and with that kind edging], I'd be a fan."
Rgirl

 

[sk8m8]

Re: Edges

Hey rgirl, upon reading my post again I can see why you would think I was saying that about Sasha. My point is that the body line of a skater to turn a triple or quad is "straight up and down" not the momentum of the jump. I would agree with you that Sasha moves "over and out" on her jumps making it even that much more difficult to "grab" a sold deep edge. THis is one of the reasons I think it is perposterous for her to try to land a quad sal. A sal is very much an "up and down" jump or as I like to put it a "pivot" jump. It requires that you pretty much turn the jump in place like a corkscrew and travel on the runout. Sasha jumps to far away from the center to make this an easy accomplishment for her. I would think the "up and out" of her jumping would make her a better candidate for a 3Xaxel or a quad toe where she can use the "vault" to her advantage.

Another thought is that those skaters with superior edging are far faster and more cetered on their spins. Lucinda has great edge control. I think Sato must stress that in his skaters. Though she is exceptionally gifted in the area of spinning, it is her edge control combined with her keen sense of balance that allows her to have so many variations on her spins and also change positions so seamlessly. Tood is yet another example and Nicole Bobeck falls into this category too.

 

[rgirl181]

Re: Edges

Sk8m8,
Yes, I see what you mean about the "up and down" thing. And I see what you mean about the 3Axel or a 4toe probably being a better candidate for Cohen than the 4sal. OTOH, perhaps because of her propensity toward too much out, the "corkscrew" or "pivot" action of the salchow (great description) might prevent her from forcing herself too far out, as her body apparently wants to do. Perhaps it's that very "up and down" quality of the sal that stabilizes the jump for Cohen and makes it feel like the best choice for her to try a quad. You and I will have to sneak up to Connecticut and spy on Sasha's jumps to decide

Interesting theory on edges and spins, except some of the skaters I know with the best edges aren't particularly great spinners: Kwan and Kulik to name two. I also remember the list you posted on "What Makes a Skater's Skater" in which Sandra Bezic said "a good spin is almost the hallmark of a complete skater today... The faster the spin the better shape the skater and a good indicator of total body 'tone.'" Perhaps it's just the "exception to every rule" thing, but the lack of speed on Michelle's spins has been practically the one thing both Kwan and nonKwan fans agree on, yet her edges are superb. Kulik too is not much of a spinner, but again, killer edges. Sasha, so-so edges but fast spins. Irina and Todd, great edges and great spins. So dunno. I think there is certainly a general truth to what Bezic says, but perhaps when you get to the elite level, there are other factors that come into play.
Rgirl