Ekaterina Bobrova: "Eteri Tutberidze can say humiliating things during training"

[readernick]

And I disagree with the idea that saying "Move your lazy a**" isn't abusive, it sure as Hell is..it's one thing to say "If you're not going to take this seriously, leave the ice because you're disrupting those who want to work." That's harsh, but fai

To children, yes. With adults, it might be okay given the language often used in these sports. That's how baseball players talk. My father was in the minor leagues when I was young so I know. But, yes. I do think the second option is better. Honestly, no coach needs to be abusive to get results. They can be firm, fair, honest and have high expectations. That's enough for good results especially when you have the talent pool currently available in Russian. Unfortunately, there is a cycle of abuse.

 

[Scott512]

No, but she is very good friends with Zhenya Med, it's not outside the realm of possibility they discussed how they train. Especially since at least to me, Katia doesn't see it as a problem, she didn't say "I became a champion in spite of the treatment I got" she said "I'm a champion because of it."

I remember reading an article by a Russian gymnast that was basically the same thing: "Other countries are too PC and soft. Here in Russia we're strong and don't run to our parents when our coaches scream at us."

You're probably right moose but there's just no reason to discuss all this again. Then people bring up abuse and TT like piling on or something.

If I see abuse I will gladly call it out. And I know people get sensitive when young people get yelled at. my stepdaughter when she was playing softball in middle scool and high school the sometimes coaches rode her hard verbally I would take a deep breath. It's not easy to hear harsh words. Some of the parents complained and the criticisms got a little milder. If a parent of one of EG skaters complain to her or about something she said to their daughter or son that's OK. That's part of a job as a coach and EG lets the parents come to practice so the parents get to see what's really going on.

I know Ekat and Zhenya are are best friends.
That may be where she got some of the training information. Zhenya is to make a comeback she doesn't need to be dragged into any of this. Especially since she's back at TT.

Bobrova is probably surprised by all of this.
She may not have meant to cause any turmoil.

Congratulations to Russia on an unbelievable world championship after a very difficult Corona virus season where half their skaters seem to have Corona virus at 1 point. I wish that is what we were talking about. Winning 3 of the 4 disciplines from one country is a tremendous feat. Congrats.

 

[Scott512]

Hello she didn't do it to "throw Eteri under the bus" considering she was physically beaten and turned out to be a champion. As far as Katia's concerned Eteri is probably 50,000 times more impressive than her own coach was because she can motivate her students with words.

And I disagree with the idea that saying "Move your lazy a**" isn't abusive, it sure as Hell is..it's one thing to say "If you're not going to take this seriously, leave the ice because you're disrupting those who want to work." That's harsh, but fair.

But swearing and shouting, especially at young children is extremely damaging.

Eteri sees move your lazy ass as .motivation. So do the parents I suppose. Again this is crazy where is the proof or the video of her swearing at young children as you call them? If this is true then the parents need to speak up since their at the practice's. EG doesn't even work with young children as far as I know.. They come up to a certain level and then she takes over like age 13 or 14.

Again I doubt seriously if EG ever swear at young children. If she did I would call her out on it and be very disappointed.

I think a lot of this is still driven by that video a few years ago of the coach making alina cry on video criticizing her practice. She gave the girl a gentle scolding a out what she was doing wrong and that was all.

Figure skating is a beautiful sport but it's a rough sport too.

 

[Scott512]

To children, yes. With adults, it might be okay given the language often used in these sports. That's how baseball players talk. My father was in the minor leagues when I was young so I know. But, yes. I do think the second option is better. Honestly, no coach needs to be abusive to get results. They can be firm, fair, honest and have high expectations. That's enough for good results especially when you have the talent pool currently available in Russian. Unfortunately, there is a cycle of abuse.

It's not great to use foul language on any level of life but Some coaches think it's acceptable. It's certainly not acceptable in my opinion for anybody that's not at the very least a teenager.

Nick my grandfather played minor league baseball. Foul language in that sport from coaches to players and players is almost like it's a part of the baseball culture. It doesn't make it right of course.

I think great coaches and EG is one of them should be able to use motivational tactics that don't involve foul language. But I don't for a second believe EG uses the B word or worse when criticizing her students. I doubt Danil or Sergei do either.

 

[Decoder]

So, Bobrova being hit and abused as a child is fine. Her talking about it isn't? Ok, well we have different values and won't agree.

Come on, that's not what Scott's trying to say or imply or..., and I think you know that.

 

[Scott512]

So, Bobrova being hit and abused as a child is fine. Her talking about it isn't? Ok, well we have different values and won't agree.

I don't think we have different values.
Butt her discussing this and how she was treated by coaches of course turns to another coach on top of the world for another round of these girls are so abused at TT. Ugh.
We can count on this why clockwork every year.

I'm sure Christine Brennan will be writing an article about all of this very soon.

Remember how stories used to come out against Alina right before a competition?
What Russia does to their stars or EG is very odd and I don't know why it happens. I suppose when you win and you are controversial the bleep will always hit the fan.

 

[Scott512]

Come on, that's not what Scott's trying to say or imply or..., and I think you know that.

Of course not.

Coaching has come a long way in Russia from what we know the coaches aren't nearly as rough as they used to be.

When coaches would get on my stepdaughter while she was playing softball the hair on my neck would stand up. I am not insensitive to this. I would hope EG would not use vile language with any students whether their children or in their twenties.

 

[rain]

No, but she is very good friends with Zhenya Med, it's not outside the realm of possibility they discussed how they train. Especially since at least to me, Katia doesn't see it as a problem, she didn't say "I became a champion in spite of the treatment I got" she said "I'm a champion because of it."

I remember reading an article by a Russian gymnast that was basically the same thing: "Other countries are too PC and soft. Here in Russia we're strong and don't run to our parents when our coaches scream at us."

Yes, this happens far too often. The cycle of abuse is perpetuated over and over. It's like the people who will insist parents are too soft on their children nowadays if they don't hit them. Of course, we know through study that hitting and humiliating children only teaches them to hit and humiliate, not whatever other lesson you may have been trying to impart. Excusing it is how they cope with the abuse. Many will even tell you they love and admire their abuser. And since it's all they know, if they go into coaching, they will very often do things the same (abusive) way. To them, that's how you achieve success. They don't know any other way.

 

[Scott512]

Wow Yags Besty and Zhulin all rail against Bobrovas comments about Eteri. Some posters posting in the comment sections even say EG should take legal action against her. I don't see that happening.

Yags even wondered if Bobrova had lost her mind!

Honestly I don't think this girl meant to cause this furor or anything she probably thinks her comments were taken out of context. But the Russian media is always looking to stir the pot.

I'm sure TAT will weigh in on this.

For Ekat I am sorry that she apparently was treated badly as a figure skating student. Hopefully that does not go on anymore in Russia.

 

[ladyjane]

For Ekat I am sorry that she apparently was treated badly as a figure skating student. Hopefully that does not go on anymore in Russia.

As I understand it, there was a big furore in Russia recently due to an instagram video where a coach picked up a small child and threw this child onto the ice. It was horrific to see. Reactions were in the sphere of: being a tough coach is fine, hurting our children is not. And there were were (former) Figure Skaters speaking out quite forcefully against it. That made me conclude that whatever happened in the past, this kind of behaviour is abhorred just as much in Russia as it is anywhere else.

 

[Mawwerg]

And I disagree with the idea that saying "Move your lazy a**" isn't abusive, it sure as Hell is..it's one thing to say "If you're not going to take this seriously, leave the ice because you're disrupting those who want to work." That's harsh, but fair.

First one has one but quite significant advantadge. It's far shorter.

 

[flanker]

[

Of course they have. No one in the establishment likes it when people tell the truth about abuse in their organization. It was very brave of Bobrova to tell the truth. Abuse is sadly common around the world in all artistic sports. Bobrova will get a lot of pushback for telling the truth. But, I respect her! Good job, Bobrova.

Besti is known for her very negative opinons on Eteri, she would hardly miss any opportunity to join a crusade against her if she would have a real reason. Claiming "brave Bobrova speaks the truth" you rather say "I am willing to believe any BS about people I hate".

 

[flanker]

So, Bobrova being hit and abused as a child is fine. Her talking about it isn't? Ok, well we have different values and won't agree.

This is just twisting the words. Bobrova was never ever coached by Eteri and whatever her experience was doesn't give her the right to accuse someone she has no experience with.

 

[flanker]

BTW, speaking about coaching, I truly suggest everyone who wants to talk about "russian coaches" should see the TSL vid with Elena Betchke first:

 

[Thrashergurl]

I don’t think it’s uncommon to see high profile figures denying accusations that could possibly be true. We saw it with the skaters in the US that were abused, and even with gymnasts. I think it happens in the workplace too. I don’t know if her comments are true or false, but we’ve all seen videos that made us at times question the methods, based on skaters reactions.
Someone made a comment about Anna, the Russian and World champion, being the sweet obedient skater. Well, abuse typically leads to obedience.
Will these comments be taken seriously in Russia, or because Eteri produces champions will it be immediately dismissed like it is on this thread?
Again, I’m not saying it’s true- but is it fair to dismiss every claim against Eteri just because her skaters win?

 

[flanker]

I don’t think it’s uncommon to see high profile figures denying accusations that could possibly be true. We saw it with the skaters in the US that were abused, and even with gymnasts. I think it happens in the workplace too. I don’t know if her comments are true or false, but we’ve all seen videos that made us at times question the methods, based on skaters reactions.
Someone made a comment about Anna, the Russian and World champion, being the sweet obedient skater. Well, abuse typically leads to obedience.
Will these comments be taken seriously in Russia, or because Eteri produces champions will it be immediately dismissed like it is on this thread?
Again, I’m not saying it’s true- but is it fair to dismiss every claim against Eteri just because her skaters win?

I would call those accusations "proven by opinion".

 

[Vemvane]

And I disagree with the idea that saying "Move your lazy a**" isn't abusive, it sure as Hell is..it's one thing to say "If you're not going to take this seriously, leave the ice because you're disrupting those who want to work." That's harsh, but fair.

But swearing and shouting, especially at young children is extremely damaging.

I take your point, and very much agree with the last paragraph, but I will say as well that a lot of it also has to do with the delivery. As a child who participated in a number of sports, quite often being told the equivalent of "Move your lazy butt" was far less serious than "If you're not going to take this seriously, leave the class because you're disrupting those who want to work". Usually, we kids were giggling at the first one and its equivalents, because it tended to be delivered in good humour, but if the instructor/teacher/trainer used the second, it wasn't funny any longer, and it was often delivered in tones intended to crush. And those were the rebukes that stuck and stung and made us feel worthless, especially when coupled with the cold shoulder after that. I had riding instructors who were really good at that, and I have less than happy memories of their lessons.

It may also have been something to do with the teaching culture from the time and place I grew up. It wasn't limited to riding. Like, we had a ballet teacher who was horribly emotionally abusive, but she never swore at us or raised her voice, just shredded us one by one by one. She played favourites, but the moment anyone failed to perform up to her personal standards, she would drop them like a hot potato, and write them off, ignoring them in class unless she had something critical to say. She wrecked our entire class's confidence and our love of dancing, because of her insidiously abusive approach over the years. But there was a male teacher who shouted a lot, called students rude things, threw things, and was generally loved, because somehow he didn't destroy your self-esteem when doing that. It was a reflection on your performance in the moment, rather than a judgement of your entire worth as a dancer. Though, that said, he could be terrifying at times, and I do recall one rehearsal where he picked up a chair and hurled it at the studio floor so hard the chair broke, and we all sat in petrified silence. So, yeah, that was the downside to his temper.

So I think it's more complicated than the vocabulary used - it's also the context, the tone, the manner in which it is used, and the behaviour of the instructor that accompanies it. I have not a clue how Eteri teaches, but maybe she's one of those trainers who will yell at you without making it personal, or maybe she isn't. And also, as someone who is now a teacher, what works for one student may be intimidating and unkind for another. Some of the students I've taught like to be teased, some hate it; some of them will respond well to a sharply barked instruction, others will crumble; some flourish when praised and encouraged, some find that phony; some like a lot of support, others prefer to be challenged. Every one of them is an individual, and a good teacher will find a way to motivate and encourage each one according to what works for them - though in group settings, this is not always possible.

Anyway, instruction/teaching/training is more complex, more individual, than is often realised, but it should be about building the student, not breaking them down.

 

[Lzbee]

New ladies world champion and 3 time 3 time Russian ladies national champion is just so abused. She seems like a great perfectly behaved girl to me. Anna has been at that rink for more than 13 years. How has she survived?

I find it strange to use "perfectly behaved" as evidence of not being abused.

Not saying she's abused, Anna does seem to be well adjusted, but just because someone doesn't look like they're being abused, doesn't mean they aren't? By assuming people are ok because they don't appear to be falling apart makes it harder for them to say they're struggling for fear of not being believed.

In terms of Eteri, some of the things her students have said in the past are concerning but she's under a lot more media scrutiny now so I imagine she has the respect to not resort to extreme methods any more.

Personally, I don't think it should be necessary to have humiliation as a motivator. It might work for some but it can be very damaging for a lot of others and definitely shouldn't be a coach's go to method. Russian culture is very different but considering industry leaders are denying these claims, it sounds like Russians wouldn't accept this behaviour either.

 

[[email protected]]

Bobrova says now that she did not give negative assessment to Eteri's coaching method. She just wanted to say that it is tougher than that of other schools.

She understands now that she looks stupid not getting support even from usual suspects....outside this board.

 

[Scott512]

I don’t think it’s uncommon to see high profile figures denying accusations that could possibly be true. We saw it with the skaters in the US that were abused, and even with gymnasts. I think it happens in the workplace too. I don’t know if her comments are true or false, but we’ve all seen videos that made us at times question the methods, based on skaters reactions.
Someone made a comment about Anna, the Russian and World champion, being the sweet obedient skater. Well, abuse typically leads to obedience.
Will these comments be taken seriously in Russia, or because Eteri produces champions will it be immediately dismissed like it is on this thread?
Again, I’m not saying it’s true- but is it fair to dismiss every claim against Eteri just because her skaters win?

I think you are referring to me Scott someone.

You are right. Well-behaved demeanor does not mean someone is not being abused. But I seriously doubt Anya was abused in any way 13 years at Sambo.

Bobrovas humilition comment was immediately refuted by Yags, Zhulin and Besty who is not besties with EG.

Yags has been watching TT practices for years. He says he has never seen this coach humiliate any skater. Are we not to believe him because he is known to be a pain in the you-know-what?