Elizaveta Tuktamysheva

[Sandpiper]

No, there isn't. That's why you see so many of the men now contorting themselves into ridiculous positions, and why in not so very long we're going to start seeing a range of back injuries in the men, too.

It really is tricky business. On one hand, the Biellmann is a very difficult spin and there's a reason it's rewarded. On the other hand, there should be other options for less flexible skaters--we don't need to see everybody contorting themselves! Maybe keep the levelled spins, but make the levels less important than the GOE? :think: Or just bring back 6.0.

 

[Barb]

It really is tricky business. On one hand, the Biellmann is a very difficult spin and there's a reason it's rewarded. On the other hand, there should be other options for less flexible skaters--we don't need to see everybody contorting themselves! Maybe keep the levelled spins, but make the levels less important than the GOE? :think: Or just bring back 6.0.

I think athletes should prioritize their health. The system is ok, but if they are not able to do it, just don't do it. Yuna avoided the beiellman this season and I think she was correct. No medal worth it more than your health. May be try harder in the step seq for balance the points.

 

[karne]

I think athletes should prioritize their health. The system is ok, but if they are not able to do it, just don't do it. Yuna avoided the beiellman this season and I think she was correct. No medal worth it more than your health. May be try harder in the step seq for balance the points.

While I agree health is a priority, we're talking about elite athletes here. These are seriously competitive beasts. Do you really think that if Max Aaron knows he's within striking distance of Jason Brown he's going to go into a camel spin and NOT grab the blade and pull himself into a position he can't hit as easily? D'you really think he's just going to leave points on the table as he watches Jason pull effortlessly into all his different positions? Of course he's not.

Asking an elite athlete to leave points on the table is absurd.

Yes, Yuna avoided the Biellmann. There were also jumps she avoided, too. And then people cried foul when she lost the Olympics on technical merit. *raises eyebrow* But let's not bring that in here.

 

[starlight97]

While I agree health is a priority, we're talking about elite athletes here. These are seriously competitive beasts. Do you really think that if Max Aaron knows he's within striking distance of Jason Brown he's going to go into a camel spin and NOT grab the blade and pull himself into a position he can't hit as easily? D'you really think he's just going to leave points on the table as he watches Jason pull effortlessly into all his different positions? Of course he's not.

Asking an elite athlete to leave points on the table is absurd.

Yes, Yuna avoided the Biellmann. There were also jumps she avoided, too. And then people cried foul when she lost the Olympics on technical merit. *raises eyebrow* But let's not bring that in here.

I agree. If they really want to be at the top they won't leave anything out. Because Yuna was brought up here -
Perfect example! In Vancouver she WANTED it more than anything else in her life, she said that herself many times, and she did everything in her power to win there.
In Sochi on the other hand- at first she didn't even want to go there! You could see it in her face too, she was worn out after years of playing national goddess, skating queen and perfect girl - she didn't want it, not really, she 'was just happy that it was over'. So she left jumps and certain spins out.

Does anybody know what exactly is the problem with Liza's back?

 

[karne]

Does anybody know what exactly is the problem with Liza's back?

No, and I doubt we'll ever find out, unless she or Mishin chooses to tell. We still don't know what was wrong with Artur's back, after all.

 

[Sandpiper]

I think athletes should prioritize their health. The system is ok, but if they are not able to do it, just don't do it. Yuna avoided the beiellman this season and I think she was correct. No medal worth it more than your health. May be try harder in the step seq for balance the points.

I'm not talking about the athletes themselves. Of course they a) should prioritize health b) never, ever do a). I'm talking about how the rules should reward/not reward certain spins. On one hand, I think difficult variations like the Biellmann should be rewarded because they're, well, difficult. On the other hand, I feel like people should have a chance to make back the points by adding other features to the spin, or just doing a good spin (hence my suggestion to keep the levels, but to make GOE worth more, so people will be encouraged to do the spin they're best at).

 

[Alba]

While I agree health is a priority, we're talking about elite athletes here. These are seriously competitive beasts. Do you really think that if Max Aaron knows he's within striking distance of Jason Brown he's going to go into a camel spin and NOT grab the blade and pull himself into a position he can't hit as easily? D'you really think he's just going to leave points on the table as he watches Jason pull effortlessly into all his different positions? Of course he's not.

Asking an elite athlete to leave points on the table is absurd.

True, but what chapis was saying is that there are many areas where you can gain points, so why not work on those areas and improve there. Raise the quality of other elements, Jumps, Transitions, SS, Step sequence, Performance, etc.

It really is tricky business. On one hand, the Biellmann is a very difficult spin and there's a reason it's rewarded. On the other hand, there should be other options for less flexible skaters--we don't need to see everybody contorting themselves! Maybe keep the levelled spins, but make the levels less important than the GOE? :think: Or just bring back 6.0.

It's the same thing though isn't it? You keep the levels and raise the GOE's but still someone who does a good level 3 or 4 spin will get more points.
Besides, the problem is that the judges still will not reward you properly. I'm afraid no judge will give a +3 to a skater who does an excellent level 2 spin, for example, or beautiful double twist in pairs. If it happens it's rare.

 

[Sandpiper]

^The thing is, if one person does a good spin in a difficult position and another person does a good spin in a "normal" position... perhaps the first person should get more points. However, if we make the GOE more valuable than the levels, it will encourage people to do the spin they are best at, since--in theory--they should earn more points with a good spin in a normal position vs. a bad spin in a difficult position. This is just the theory of course--like you said, in practice the judges might not be willing to give +3 GOE for a fast but basic spin.

Maybe something like this: one levelled spin like we've got now, but with GOE more important. One spin with only Level 1 and Level 2--to get level two, you need some amount of difficulty (entry, edge changes, position, whatnot) but you're not forced to do the flexibility moves. One spin that's basically the equivalent of the ChSt: Do whatever you want, scored only on GOE. The spin rules I understand less than anything though, so this is likely all unhelpful.

 

[Alba]

^The thing is, if one person does a good spin in a difficult position and another person does a good spin in a "normal" position... perhaps the first person should get more points. However, if we make the GOE more valuable than the levels, it will encourage people to do the spin they are best at, since--in theory--they should earn more points with a good spin in a normal position vs. a bad spin in a difficult position. This is just the theory of course--like you said, in practice the judges might not be willing to give +3 GOE for a fast but basic spin.

Maybe something like this: one levelled spin like we've got now, but with GOE more important. One spin with only Level 1 and Level 2--to get level two, you need some amount of difficulty (entry, edge changes, position, whatnot) but you're not forced to do the flexibility moves. One spin that's basically the equivalent of the ChSt: Do whatever you want, scored only on GOE. The spin rules I understand less than anything though, so this is likely all unhelpful.

How much does spins costs in the end? I mean how many points, around 4 right? Can't skaters make it somewhere else, as I said above?

 

[Sandpiper]

How much does spins costs in the end? I mean how many points?

Sorry, I'm really the wrong person to ask... But point taken--maybe my system is too needlessly complicated for something that's not that costly. (But IIRC, some of Yulia's spins pull in points that are comparable to jumps). I just hope skaters have more freedom on spins, like how they added choreographed step sequence for steps.

 

[Alba]

(But IIRC, some of Yulia's spins pull in points that are comparable to jumps). I just hope skaters have more freedom on spins, like how they added choreographed step sequence for steps.

She gets those points thanks to the GoE's though. Anyway, I think the best way is to focus on the elements that you have and know you can improve, but I also do think the judges should reward simple spins if they are done properly.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Liza has better spins than Caro. For comparison Yulia's last combination spin with +3 ACROSS THE BOARD only netted her an extra .50 points over Caro this year. Liza should be able to make it up elsewhere. Right now I think all she needs is consistency and to just plain and simple compete so the judges get used to seeing her again.

Look at the last spin scores for Yulia and Caro here:
http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2014/wc2014_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

I think the way spins are scored Liza should be fine.

 

[Sandpiper]

@Alba
True. The question is, if someone had good quality but not good levels, would they still be able to pull good GOE? I know Lambiel did, during his "I refuse to do Level 4 spins!" era, but he had already built a reputation as a good spinner. And even with the GOEs, he regularly lost to people who maxed out the levels (even if they didn't pull the same GOEs).

Liza will never score the same for spins as Yulia does, under any system. And nor should she. The only problem is there aren't enough alternatives to the flexibility moves, to allow Liza to do the best spins she is capable of doing, while not gathering up unnecessary injuries.

 

[Alba]

@Alba
True. The question is, if someone had good quality but not good levels, would they still be able to pull good GOE? I know Lambiel did, during his "I refuse to do Level 4 spins!" era, but he had already built a reputation as a good spinner. And even with the GOEs, he regularly lost to people who maxed out the levels (even if they didn't pull the same GOEs).

Well, he also lost because technically speaking he was not among the strongest tbh, and not consistent.
You can't win only with good spins and good artistry, but about the spins he was right and it paid off. Maybe at first you will suffer but if you become good at it, you'll get the reputation as well and be rewarded. If those damn spins are so important of course.

 

[Sandpiper]

Well, he also lost because technically speaking he was not among the strongest tbh, and not consistent.
You can't win only with good spins and good artistry, but about the spins he was right and it paid off. Maybe at first you will suffer but if you become good at it, you'll get the reputation as well and be rewarded. If those damn spins are so important of course.

No, what I meant is, he scored less on spins than, say, Plushenko, who maxed out his levels while Lambiel did not. Even though Lambiel constantly pulled higher GOE, he wasn't able to overcome the deficit due to the levels. Of course, Lambiel wasn't going to beat Plushenko overall (or even Joubert overall, when Joubert was on) even if he had Level 4 spins, because you can't win with spins alone.

 

[Alba]

No, what I meant is, he scored less on spins than, say, Plushenko, who maxed out his levels while Lambiel did not. Even though Lambiel constantly pulled higher GOE, he wasn't able to overcome the deficit due to the levels. Of course, Lambiel wasn't going to beat Plushenko overall (or even Joubert overall, when Joubert was on) even if he had Level 4 spins, because you can't win with spins alone.

Oups, sorry. My mistake. I thought you're referring to overall win.

 

[Barb]

To do a good simple spin it is great but it is not fair to obtain +3 as +3 of a difficult one. Like the jumps obviously is easier to do a perfect 3loop than a perfect 3lutz. To do scales with goes in proportion to levels would be fine

 

[Alba]

To do a good simple spin it is great but it is not fair to obtain +3 as +3 of a difficult one. Like the jumps obviously is easier to do a perfect 3loop than a perfect 3lutz. To do scales with goes in proportion to levels would be fine

That's true but you have the levels which should regulate that aspect, or do scales as per your suggestion.
It's not fair that the GOE's should suffer either, because GoE's are about the execution of certain elements not the level of difficulty.

 

[Meoima]

Well, sometimes even spin is harder to judge than the jump. Some skaters have bad spin positions, not enough revolution but still they get high GOE for their spins. personally I think Liza's spin is the least of her problem right now.

 

[Sandpiper]

That's true but you have the levels which should regulate that aspect, or do scales as per your suggestion.
It's not fair that the GOE's should suffer either, because GoE's are about the execution of certain elements not the level of difficulty.

:thumbsup: Exactly. We've already got the levels for that.

Frankly, I miss seeing a good ol' scratch spin.

But anyway, Liza can make up the points she loses on her spins using her jump GOE. Her priority right now is being healthy.