Elizaveta's triple A

[drivingmissdaisy]

I disagree, Tonya was the favorite in 91. She was the reigning US champ, the international judges liked her better than the US judges and she was overscored at Worlds. Her program just wasn't good enough, Kristi was way ahead technically that day.

We were talking about nationals, when she went for the 3A having never achieved it before.

 

[chuckm]

It isn't Liza who has the young'uns nipping at her heels---that's Pogo. Liza and Elena have been 1-2 all season, including Russian Nationals. Pogo, OTOH, hasn't been anywhere near as strong, and lost to Medvedeva at Nationals.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

It isn't Liza who has the young'uns nipping at her heels---that's Pogo. Liza and Elena have been 1-2 all season, including Russian Nationals. Pogo, OTOH, hasn't been anywhere near as strong, and lost to Medvedeva at Nationals.

To be fair, Tuktamysheva only beat Medvedeva at Nationals by a mere 2.54 points (was only 1 point ahead of Medvedeva after the SP, and 1.5 points ahead of her in the FS). And come next season Medvedeva won't be getting the same junior-level PCS.

It's very obvious though that Pogo hasn't been nearly as strong as Rad/Tukt this season overall though (I mean, nobody has been).

 

[chuckm]

Medvedeva hasn't gone through puberty yet and she is whippet-thin. Who knows what will happen when growth and maturity inevitably set in. Liza went through more than two years of turmoil when it hit her.

 

[Sandpiper]

To be fair, Tuktamysheva only beat Medvedeva at Nationals by a mere 2.54 points (was only 1 point ahead of Medvedeva after the SP, and 1.5 points ahead of her in the FS). And come next season Medvedeva won't be getting the same junior-level PCS.

It's very obvious though that Pogo hasn't been nearly as strong as Rad/Tukt this season overall though (I mean, nobody has been).

Or, alternatively: Liza still beat Evgenia at Nationals, with a popped jump, no three-jump combination, less backloading, and easier combinations. It just depends on how you look at it.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Liza went through more than two years of turmoil when it hit her.

It's incredible that someone with such solid technique on the jumps still had such huge problems with puberty. It makes me very pessimistic about Julia's chances of overcoming her technical issues.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

It's incredible that someone with such solid technique on the jumps still had such huge problems with puberty. It makes me very pessimistic about Julia's chances of overcoming her technical issues.

That's something really individual and hard to compare. Adelina also has weaker technique on her jumps than Liza, and seemed to struggle less. There are a lot of factors that are playing into this - Julia might cope with all of this way differently than Liza did.
Additionally, I think Lizas "struggles" wouldn't have looked as bad if it wouldn't have been for the tough russian field - she made the GPF in 2012-13! The only "off-season" she had was last season - when she actually finished 4th at both her GP events. That's combined just one placement less than Gracie (who had a 4th and a 3rd), and Gracie was the american darling. Of course it was a weaker season for her, but by no means a disaster. The only reason this all looks so extreme is because so many people on the internet like to jump the gun and have bad memories.

 

[Scovies]

I'm torn on whether Liza should try the 3A at worlds. She doesn't need it to win, but I can imagine how difficult it would be for her if she came in second with a clean performance, knowing that a 3A could have given her the edge.

I don't understand why she thinks she has to add it now, though. It's not like she's a men's skater who's trying to add a quad to keep up with the rest of the field; she's already beaten Elena at the GPF and Europeans without it, and she'll have plenty of time to test it out at Senior Bs or the Grand Prix circuit next season.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I'm torn on whether Liza should try the 3A at worlds. She doesn't need it to win, but I can imagine how difficult it would be for her if she came in second with a clean performance, knowing that a 3A could have given her the edge.

I don't understand why she thinks she has to add it now, though. It's not like she's a men's skater who's trying to add a quad to keep up with the rest of the field; she's already beaten Elena at the GPF and Europeans without it, and she'll have plenty of time to test it out at Senior Bs or the Grand Prix circuit next season.

The "issue" is that if Radionova goes clean, her and Tukt are essentially tied, so there is the risk that if Radionova attains better GOE on her jumps than Euros (where she was slightly shaky on some), then it could go either way.

It is really uncharacteristic though to have the 3A be done at Worlds, rather than testing it on the GP/GPF/Euros/Russian Nats.

 

[StitchMonkey]

I'm torn on whether Liza should try the 3A at worlds. She doesn't need it to win, but I can imagine how difficult it would be for her if she came in second with a clean performance, knowing that a 3A could have given her the edge.

I think that might be why she is adding it. If she is going to loose, she would rather lose having tried it rather than lose and wonder what if.

I actually can see that mindset, that you would rather take the more risk if you can deal with losing more easily that way.

 

[Weathergal]

I think that might be why she is adding it. If she is going to loose, she would rather lose having tried it rather than lose and wonder what if.

I actually can see that mindset, that you would rather take the more risk if you can deal with losing more easily that way.

When you and CanadianSkaterGuy put it that way, it makes me feel a lot better about her trying it. And even though I'm nervous for her and am concerned, like many, that she might be jeopardizing a gold--or more--I applaud her trying it!

 

[Globetrotter]

It is really uncharacteristic though to have the 3A be done at Worlds, rather than testing it on the GP/GPF/Euros/Russian Nats.

Who knows the real reason. May even be plausible that Mishin is the engineer behind this. After all, we do know that Mishin has a reputation for having skaters that will push the athletic boundary and challenge difficult elements and Plushy was probably his star pupil at that. Like them or hate them, Mishin's proteges certainly are not those that turn down a challenge. I do like their competitive mentality of taking the risk and do or die trying attitude. If Tuks is confident of doing it, I say let her try. Attempting it under the high pressure of a world's medal at stake will let her learn in future how it will be like. I think the pressure of delivery at Worlds will be a way higher level than in some GP tournament. High risk yes but also if done well, she can have a very comfortable lead going into the LP.

 

[Globetrotter]

We were talking about nationals, when she went for the 3A having never achieved it before.

Thanks for clarifying. That was when Harding either had the chance to win it with the 3A or bomb it and she stays at home during Worlds. certainly high stakes as she knew quite well that she will never be able to match Yamaguchi or Kerrigan in terms of presentation - those were the bad old days of 6.0 where judges clearly favoured the "lovelier" skaters and didn't like those athletic and powerful types (Ito, Harding and certainly Bonaly). High pressure, high risk state. Similar for Tuks at Worlds, either she nails it and secures a high probability of getting gold or bomb it and get off podium. it sure makes for interesting times. sure way to test one's competitive nerves.

Urggh and its such a looooooooooong wait!

 

[solani]

We were talking about nationals, when she went for the 3A having never achieved it before.

I see! Then I absolutely agree with you.

Who knows the real reason. May even be plausible that Mishin is the engineer behind this. After all, we do know that Mishin has a reputation for having skaters that will push the athletic boundary and challenge difficult elements and Plushy was probably his star pupil at that. Like them or hate them, Mishin's proteges certainly are not those that turn down a challenge. I do like their competitive mentality of taking the risk and do or die trying attitude. If Tuks is confident of doing it, I say let her try. Attempting it under the high pressure of a world's medal at stake will let her learn in future how it will be like. I think the pressure of delivery at Worlds will be a way higher level than in some GP tournament. High risk yes but also if done well, she can have a very comfortable lead going into the LP.

Yes, Mishin obviously only takes proteges that are up to any challenge. I guess having him as a trainer is a challenge in itself, but worthwhile. And she still has to work on her reputation, she wants to be Russia's no. 1. And with Adelina and Julia not competing I think it would be great for her to do that 3A. It would be a statement.

 

[Krunchii]

I see! Then I absolutely agree with you.

Yes, Mishin obviously only takes proteges that are up to any challenge. I guess having him as a trainer is a challenge in itself, but worthwhile. And she still has to work on her reputation, she wants to be Russia's no. 1. And with Adelina and Julia not competing I think it would be great for her to do that 3A. It would be a statement.

I agree, she wants to cement herself while the others are gone, even if she has been dominating this season, people still talk about Adelina and Yulia coming back. Bringing a 3Lz-3T isn't as big a statement as the 3A

 

[Tutto]

A new article by Vaitsechovskaia on Liza’s triple axel:

http://www.sports.ru/others/figure-s...028138330.html


'Tuktamisheva's Axel is a Landmark Event

Strategically the intention to try 3A at Worlds makes sense. As regards the Worlds 2015 a comparison with a racing term ‘pole position’ comes to mind which means in this context a fight for the most advantageous position at the most important start of a 4 year cycle, ie Olympics 2018, even if there is still three year to go. But this is only if by the calendar, in reality it is only 2 seasons.
Liza’s axel in this respect is a landmark event. Because even now at the initial stage her attempts so far demonstrated that having such ideal technique and jumping power, Liza is practically the only skater who potentially is capable of doing 3A-3T combination. Should it happen it could be a weapon of 'killing' her competitors as once the legendary duels between Alexei Yagudin and Evgeni Plushenko with thier 4-4 combinations had been.
By the way 'killing' does not imply any hurry. It will be quite sufficient to demonstrate the element from time to time in official practice as in fact Liza & Mishin have already done.
Having said all this, Liza’s road to the top is not going to be easy from now on. But that that Liza has managed to step up a level amidst a very busy season is quite outstanding'

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Who knows the real reason. May even be plausible that Mishin is the engineer behind this. After all, we do know that Mishin has a reputation for having skaters that will push the athletic boundary and challenge difficult elements and Plushy was probably his star pupil at that. Like them or hate them, Mishin's proteges certainly are not those that turn down a challenge. I do like their competitive mentality of taking the risk and do or die trying attitude. If Tuks is confident of doing it, I say let her try. Attempting it under the high pressure of a world's medal at stake will let her learn in future how it will be like. I think the pressure of delivery at Worlds will be a way higher level than in some GP tournament. High risk yes but also if done well, she can have a very comfortable lead going into the LP.

Well, Mishin's style is go big or go home. He is one to make risks albeit calculated risks. This is a huge opportunity for him to have a female world champion to his name, having been known primarily as a men's coach, so I'm sure he will help her make a sound call.

It seems Liza just doesn't want to win by a few points on PCS, but she wants to cement herself as the one to beat. As she herself said, the 3A will be a must in the future, and clearly she wants to be one of the skaters to push that. Mao tried to do it, and established herself as a dominant force because the rest of the field was trying to get their 3-3 down, let alone 3A. Now that 3-3 is a podium standard at the World level within the field, the 3A (or quad) seems to be the next step forward.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Or, alternatively: Liza still beat Evgenia at Nationals, with a popped jump, no three-jump combination, less backloading, and easier combinations. It just depends on how you look at it.

True. Although we could also factor in Evgenia getting a lip deduction as well - which if not for that would have made it probably less than a point difference between them.

Another thing is that Evgenia's PCS was 68 points at Russian Nats which is absolutely ridiculous. Liza's was 71, also ridiculous. But internationally, the PCS gap would have been probably more like 5 points (Liza 66/67 and Evgenia 61/62).

 

[Ophelia]

Well, Mishin's style is go big or go home. He is one to make risks albeit calculated risks. This is a huge opportunity for him to have a female world champion to his name, having been known primarily as a men's coach, so I'm sure he will help her make a sound call.

It seems Liza just doesn't want to win by a few points on PCS, but she wants to cement herself as the one to beat. As she herself said, the 3A will be a must in the future, and clearly she wants to be one of the skaters to push that. Mao tried to do it, and established herself as a dominant force because the rest of the field was trying to get their 3-3 down, let alone 3A. Now that 3-3 is a podium standard at the World level within the field, the 3A (or quad) seems to be the next step forward.

Apples to oranges. Asada didn't have the most reliable 3-3 and used a 3A in place of it.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Apples to oranges. Asada didn't have the most reliable 3-3 and used a 3A in place of it.

I don't think it was a matter of reliability. She focused on the 3A and fixing her lutz/salchow in lieu of her 3-3. For a while she had a very consistent 3-3.