Europeans on ABC/ESPN-Televised Thoughts

[Joesitz (RIP)]

It was indeed a great day for Julia, and the Hungarian National Anthem is like a choral concert piece. I was overwhelmed with pride.

Poykio is more than a beautiful skater, she has a beautiful face, but then I've always favored raven haired beauties.

Joe

 

[Evdokia]

Evdokia - I don't think posters are really speaking of the QR and SP which most of them didn't see. But as far as the LP is concerned, I believe some posters, like me, would have put him in sixth place. Plush had a bad day. Everyone has in their skating career, so it is not the end of the world. I am sure Plush will put it together and skate a fine Worlds. No problem.

What it showed in the rankings was that 2 judges had his LP in First Place. This was way out of lline. You know as well as I do that the other contestants skated much better. Either it was bias or ineptness. and were those two judges among the random drawings? We don't know so it's all speculation.

Joe - if somebody says Plushy didn't deserve to medal, it's a statement about the final result, which consists of QR+SP+LP. Therefore I didn't take this as a critique about Plushenko's free skate, but as a critique about his overall placement and that's why I jumped in mentioning the QR + SP.

About the free skate - I really like to know what the judges who placed Plushenko first were thinking, no discussion from my side that this was just stupid and actually I believe that they did Plushenko nothing good with that, as I'm pretty sure he doesn't want to be the "held up Russian". (And he stated himself that Joubert was better and deserved to win.)

Personally I would have placed Plushenko 5th in the free skate, but only by a narrow margin and I can see, how some judges still had him in 2nd place. - I think that Plushenko just made a much more bad impression in Budapest, cause we were just used to see him skate clean and other, less consistent skaters, who we expected to make more errors on the jumps, skated pretty well - but that doesn't change the fact, that Plushenko even with the falls still had a very difficult jump content. The free skate isn't the SP, where each fall is an error, you can repeat jumps and those landed will count. And if you take a look at the overall jump content it comes out that Plushenko actually still had the most difficult programe compared to Klimkin, Dambier + Lambiel. (Concerning artistry: what I've seen with the mens' competitions over the past years, the judges were more looking for the jumps, especially the quads and quad combos, than for artistry, so there is no reason, why they suddenly should have changed this at Euros. - But I would love to see this kind of judging changed on a consistent basis, ie. artistry more prevailing over the jumps in general.)

 

[curious]

yes,let's talk about skaters being held up. Yags was terribly held up at worlds 2001 after that disastrous qr his second place was a complete gift. His 2000 world title with all those falls,euros 2002 with falls over a clean abt etc. I'm sure reputation didn't help yags win those titles right? The point is that all top skaters are held up some more than others, but to point the finger at plushy as if he were the only skater is wrong wasn't eman and buttle ridiculously held up at 4cc? even kwan has been held up but she is michell lol! Anyway,Plushy will probably have surgery after the tour so you won't have to complain about the guy being held up for awhile

 

[hockeyfan228]

One of the differences between Plushenko's performance, and Buttle's for that matter, compared to Sandhu's and Yagudin's held-up performances is that when he was good, he was very, very good -- 3A/3T/2L, 3A (late in the program), straightline footwork -- and when he was bad, he was horrid. When skaters have below par performance, unless they die in the second half (Petrenko at Albertville, Li at Worlds last year), their highs are not often as high as Plushenko's. It's also relatively rare for a skater to fail on one element and then nail it late in the program. (Plushenko's and Ito's 3A.) Since there are no deductions for the LP under OBO, when Plushenko landed the 3A perfectly at the end, this could have negated his 1A's, at the beginning, including the fluke fall, at least in the minds of two judges who counted.

Also, total difficulty of jump content alone does not mean that the skater should win automatically, and that's even assuming that the difficulty of the entrances are taken into account, ex., Klimkin's cantilever into 3L, camel spins in both directions directly into 3S without preparation. Plushenko has been given a lot of credit for the 4T/3T/2L with no flowout and often a quick turn out since Worlds '03. Spins, footwork, and moves in the field are also, at least in theory, supposed to count, regardless of the judging system.

 

[gracefulswan]

I don´t agree.
I like artistic programs and I am no lover of "jump programs". Therefore I like Plushenko´s Njinsky program, because it is one of the few programs, in which somebody tries to show artistic elements.
Relating to the marks: both 1. places were not justified.
One first place was probably assigned by the Russian judge - that is not important because in the reverse case (French judge) it would have happened in the same way - so no reason to get excited. All national judges hold up their skaters whether Russian, American or others. The only possibility for changing is to make open the judgement.
I would like to add that most of the time somebody notice more the mistakes of a non-favoured skater than the mistakes of the others - that is valid for judges but also for fans.
Alina

totally agree. plushenko's 'nijinsky'...when performed up to par is the best program of the men's... in terms of musicality, artistry, and technique. the guy's posture is superb too.

i don't agree with the first in the long though... that surprised me a bit. while i agree joubert's long is nothing special... it was the best of the night.

 

[alina]

i don't agree with the first in the long though... that surprised me a bit. while i agree joubert's long is nothing special... it was the best of the night.

sorry, sometimes it´s a little bit difficult for me to explain something in your language.
To make it clear: Joubert was the best of the night without a doubt for me too.
Alina

 

[Evdokia]

Also, total difficulty of jump content alone does not mean that the skater should win automatically, and that's even assuming that the difficulty of the entrances are taken into account, ex., Klimkin's cantilever into 3L, camel spins in both directions directly into 3S without preparation. Plushenko has been given a lot of credit for the 4T/3T/2L with no flowout and often a quick turn out since Worlds '03. Spins, footwork, and moves in the field are also, at least in theory, supposed to count, regardless of the judging system.

Hockeyfan - I'm the first one to say "YEAH" to those judges which will not only count the jumps. But talk about theory and practice: under the 6.0 system THE quad and difficult jump combos unfortunately seemed to became the most important element for judging. I'm not happy with that, but on the other hand I can't see why the judges should suddenly decide to give their marks by other values just because Plushy didn't skate as well as we have seen it from him in the past. As for Klimkin: yes, he had more difficult jump entries, spins and choreography, but then again it was mostly the jumps itselves the judges gave credit in the past (note: I'm not defending this system, but IMO again you can't change it for the purpose of one night's performances) and if you look at Klimkins FS he overall had the easier jump content.
(We can go trough it if you like )

 

[Nadine]

MEN

Can't recall too much.....rather a blur......underwhelming to say the least. :\ Oops, strike that, I did enjoy the part where the violinist was explaining how he constructed the music for Evgeny's "Najinsky" program (love the music).

WOMEN

Ditto, notable exception being the following:

Julia Sebestyen ~ has the best jumps in the world (bar none)......one of her jumps is equal to two of practically everyone else in the world......except for Yoshie Onda, Irina Slutskaya & Viktoria Volchkova (when she's on). Also, her presentation was the best of the batch @ Euros IMHO. Btw, wonderful medal ceremony ~ CONGRATS Julia!

Last note, I did enjoy seeing Elena Sokolova landing those two 3/3s, but other than that her presentation & choreography leave a lot to be desired. However, Viktoria Pavuk's presentation was even worse ~ reminded me of Ludmila Nelidina & Tonya Harding not only in looks but in everything else as well (except doesn't have Tonya's powerful jumps) ~ and aesthetically her long torso in comparison to her rather short arms & legs was unpleasing IMHO, though I do give her a thumbs up for having landed 7 triples (good job) & also felt real happy for her parents that were watching in the audience. ^)

Peace, Nadine

MODIFIED TO ADD: there's a reason why Julia Sebestyen was in the Final Group of 6 @ the 2002 Olympics (btw I started noticing her for the first time that season; aka 2001/2002).

 

[RealtorGal]

I rarely watch competitions twice, but I watched this one twice and enjoyed it as much on the second night as I did on the first. It was really refreshing to hear Dick and Peggy gush about non-U.S. skaters for a change. It was as though they were free to be complimentary about anyone and everyone without the pro U.S. bias that colors most of their commentary. (I love them both--but this is my one complaint about them.) I enjoy classical programs, but I just loved watching the avant-garde programs of the men in particular.

I think Pavuk is a diamond in the rough--she reminded me of Sarah Hughes when she was 13-15 years old. She needs a choreographer, that's for sure. Who in his/her right mind would choreograph a program that called for her to hold her extension positions for all of a nanosecond?

 

[hockeyfan228]

Hockeyfan - I'm the first one to say "YEAH" to those judges which will not only count the jumps. But talk about theory and practice: under the 6.0 system THE quad and difficult jump combos unfortunately seemed to became the most important element for judging. I'm not happy with that, but on the other hand I can't see why the judges should suddenly decide to give their marks by other values just because Plushy didn't skate as well as we have seen it from him in the past.

Actually, under 6.0 the judges can do pretty much anything they like, including changing what they value from competition to competition and from skater to skater. Who's to know what the basis of their relative weights and values is?

 

[alain707]

Julia Sebestyen-SP:1,LP:1,Overall:1
Music: Tango selections
Elements: 3s,3z-2t,3turns into 3l,doughnut spin,steps into 2z,layback,3t,3t turns into 2t,spiral sequence,2x,catch-foot spin,straight-line footwork,combo spin
Tech:5.5-5.9, Pres:5.6-5.9, Ordinals:6-1st,2-2nd,1-3rd
People have complained about how Morosov's choreography is repetitive and uninspired, but in the hands of the proper skater, like Julia Sebastyen or Michelle Kwan, it works quite nicely. I was worried from what I read on the internet about Sebastyen only landing 4 triples cleanly that this was not deserving of the gold, so I was pleasantly surprised that those lamentations were overstated (as usual). The triples she landed had nice spring and good runout (although no flip), and although she did appear somewhat frightened at first, she kept her nerves intact for an excellent finish with the straight-line footwork. Cute interview and touching medal ceremony. Hopefully a sign of things to come for the Hungarian skaters.

InsecureEdge [/B]

Agreed, with one little correction . She did complete a perfect triple flip (you list it as her first 3T). So there's nothing to take away from her regarding the lack of a certain jump : she did 5 different triples.

 

[diver chick]

I don't think Plush should have been anywhere near the top four for the FP, what that would have done to his overall result is not really the issue. The issue is that he was blatantly over-marked for what he did. Under no circumstances did that program deserve marks in the high 5's. As some-one said if you miss a jump don't take the whole program with you. Had Plush missed his triple axel but gone on to complete the rest of the program without any hiccups I would be less inclined to say he was held up because as much as Joubert has improved Plush still has the edge over him.

Yes Yags has been held up in the past, so has Michelle, so has Irina, so has Sarah etc etc etc. It is not the skaters fault, they go out and do their job to the best of their ability and the judges are supposed to the same. The fault lies 100% with a system that does not require a judge to explain him/herself for giving ridiculous marks, thus allowing it to happen again and again.

 

[curious]

and some skaters like plushy,michell,yags etc has earned their right to be held up because they have been on top for years. joubert and others need to do that and win more comps to earn that right.

 

[Kasey]

Hmmmm....interesting. So you can "earn" the right to slack off some in skating? I mean, yeah, we all know that it happens, but it's an earned privelege? I could enjoy that thinking....let's see, I've been doing 48-60 hours a week on my job for four years now....have I earned the right to slack off and be "held up" yet? Let me know when you think I have! I'll bring it up to our new manager!

 

[insecureedge]

Re: Re: Europeans on ABC/ESPN-Televised Thoughts

Agreed, with one little correction . She did complete a perfect triple flip (you list it as her first 3T). So there's nothing to take away from her regarding the lack of a certain jump : she did 5 different triples.

You're right; I fixed the post.

InsecureEdge

 

[eliza88]

Why didn't they televise any dance or pairs? At least they could have shown the WHOLE FD/LP of the winning couple!

I really enjoyed the ladies and men's coverage. It was nice to see Sebestyn (sp?) win! Sokolova looked so much better than earlier in the season--I really think the black "briefs" under her dress is horrid! Her jumps are very good so I had no problem with her Tech. marks, but I think the judges are very generous with her presentation marks...I also really enjoy watching Pokio. The other hungarian woman (spacing on her name now) is a jumping bean! I got very annoyed with her split second positions! Sheesh, choreograph a program to suit your stengths and HIDE your weaknesses!

Oh Plushy! I hope he comes back fighting at Worlds! Then promptly gets the surgery done! I really enjoyed all the men--B. Joubert had one of his best skates (too many moves taken from Yagudin's program), Dambier has such flair (wish his landings were cleaner), Klimkin is always an original, so happy they showed Lambiel!! The Swiss spinning gene lives on!

eliza88

 

[heyang]

I haven't watched my tape, yet....but I did see Plushy's skate. OMG - he hasn't melted down that badly since the 1st World's were he was co-favorite with Yags for gold. Back then it was a case of wanting it too much to concentrate on the elements. Based on reports of clean practices, I can't even hazard a guess as to what happened. It wasn't just the missed jumps... he lacked his usual speed, his spins were weak, energy seemed low.... Hope he gets his mind set back in time for WOrld's.

 

[icenut84]

Plushenko - Worst I've seen him, and I would have placed him 5th or 6th in the LP. He needs to concentrate more. Without those jumps, he's in trouble. His spins have always been weak and I think trying to mimic Njinsky just got in the way of his performance. Better he stick with being cute and ogling the audience.

"Without those jumps"? Yes, Plushenko made mistakes, but he also landed a 4toe-3toe-2loop, a 3axel-3toe-2loop, and a second 3axel (late in the programme), plus a clean 3lutz and 3loop. It's not like he fell on every jump. Some people need to remember that you're supposed to be judging the skaters "against the others", not against themselves, and the other guys also had falls. Yes, we all know Plushenko is easily capable of more than what he did in his LP. Maybe it's the injury, maybe just an off-night, I don't know. And I haven't read anyone saying Plushenko was robbed, of course he wasn't, Joubert deserved to win. But credit where credit's due - Plushenko is still an awesome skater. Despite the uncharacteristic mistakes, his programmes were still overall more difficult than those he beat, as far as I remember. His spins weren't bad, he did two difficult combo spins (although he did have an error on his final spin). His footwork was awesome, as usual. And even when he's having an off-night, his presentation is still good, as judged under the rules. He does more than just "be cute and ogle the audience". :sheesh:

 

[icenut84]

However, Viktoria Pavuk's presentation was even worse ~ reminded me of Ludmila Nelidina & Tonya Harding not only in looks but in everything else as well (except doesn't have Tonya's powerful jumps) ~ and aesthetically her long torso in comparison to her rather short arms & legs was unpleasing IMHO

How unbelievably shallow is it to criticise her body shape when you're talking about her presentation? "Unpleasing"??? Give the girl a break will you, she's only a kid! IMO, she was fantastic. Of course there's things she needs to work on, it was her first big senior competition I think. Nobody's saying she's perfect. But you can't change the fact that she came out with no expectations on her and skated a blinder, particularly in the short. Have you even seen it? In the SP she was fast, musical, and has killer edges. She does a forward outside spiral with her hand on the ice - similar to the back outside one Michelle Kwan does sometimes, but Viktoria does it with her skating leg straight and with about twice the edge depth, it's incredible. And I believe the forward version is even more difficult. She also did a 3-3 in both the short and the long. Credit where credit's due, for heaven's sake. Why do people feel the need to be so nasty about every new skater that comes out? Nobody comes out as refined as a seasoned professional. Experience gives you that, and I'm sure Viktoria will improve in that area.

 

[Nadine]

Lol, never said I wasn't shallow, icenut84!

And of course, as I stated in the post that you quoted, it's after all JMHO.

Btw, I did give Viktoria credit for having skated a 7-triple performance, which you would have noticed if you had quoted my entire post & not just the above (fact).

Peace, Nadine

P.S. We all have our preferences, it's just too bad that some can't accept that, and let it go.

"There can be no peace without the truth" - Ludwig Van Beethoven