Fading Dancers | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Fading Dancers

La Rhumba said:
I couldn't disagree more with every single point you've made.

Firstly they haven't actually gone down the rankings, they finished 11th at 06 Worlds and 11th in 07 in a very tough field. They climbed 3 places to finish 5th at Euros, and finished 4th at C0R GP with the LOTM FD and beating M&Z in the process.
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Beating M&Z was not that difficult this year, which is why they split up. However, I would not say the Kerr's have gotten worse really this year, only that their pllacing got worse. I believe they have a lot of talent and have a lot of potential for improvement, which is why I listed 3 things I think they could surely do..

Do you think they are unable to improve? You must think so if you disagree with me on every point. And apparently you disagree with how much judges on average fail to reward Cowboy and Indians programs? Check out how D&L did with Taboo vs how they did the next 2 years with romantic fluff.

.
They did not intentionally do a half revolution jump in the OD, and whether Sinead actually did it or not is debatable, as many people have tried to spot it and can't, and no other TS did all season, whereas G&P have a blatant illegal knee sliding move and get away with it. I doubt if any GB couple would finish ahead of G&P at SA irrespective of their condition, however there were justifiable reasons why they weren't in top shape at SA last year.
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T&D finished ahead of American couples on American ice. It's possible. And I believe Barber and Slater did too. Just no GB couple has done it lately. G&P are not the 1st place American couple. USfigureskating just isn't going to support G&P they way they will / do B&A.

And John and Sinead weren't in their best shape at their first GP event the year before either. They finished 7th at Skate Canada 2005, behind G&P (in 3rd place), Fraser & Lukanin, Romanskaya and Grachev, and Lefebvre and Markov. Obviously, they weren't in their best shape there either. It's a bad pattern that I hope the Kerrs can break next year, whatever the reasons are for it.

BTW, I was at Skate America this year in Hartford.I was so looking forward to watching the Kerrs...and they were a disappointment.

And I watched T&D win their first ever World Championship on the same ice in 1981, ahead of 2 US teams.

As to the half rotation jump--it is better not to plan any jumps in the OD. The penalty is too high. I can find the jump in the OD-to me, it's half a rev, and therefore OK, but the caller thought it was over rotated. If you don't plan jumps, eville callers can't ding you for them. And there's no extra points for planning jumps


Finally, it's a hindrance to have such a weak GB No.2 couple, as it neither pushes them to keep on their toes, which is why they've gone to train abroad, or creates a strong *presence* at Europeans for the GB Team. Having strong No.2s obviously helps, as does the selection of the Judging Panel and TS Team. The fact is from CD to FD the Kerr's skated better than 2 other couples at Worlds - F&S and G&P - but still the scores favoured the other 2 and conspired to keep them out of the top 10. Apart from a bit of moaning from a few Brits - what do they care? The Kerr's could go out next season and skate brilliantly and still not get the scores they deserve, we've found that out very clearly the hard way.
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You may or may not be right about whether having a great 2nd place team is a plus. It depends on the character of the competitors, and I expect you know more about the Kerrs as competitors than I do. Some competitors do better when pushed (Kristi Yamaguchi). Some competitors are a bit fragile and come apart when pushed (perhaps Sasha).

But I do not think the rest of what you said is entirely true. How do you think Denkova and Staviyski got to be World Champions? The 2nd place Bulgarian team is not very good. And Bulgaria is not Politicks central.

Also, how do you think Torvill and Dean got to be World Champions? They trained hard, were hugely talented, and presented hugely better programs than any other team in their time frame. (as I can happily attest, having been fortunate enough to have seen them live :rock: :rock: )

If the Kerrs put on massively great programs next year, they will be rewarded, I believe. Perhaps not as much as they deserve, but certainly higher than 11th place.

Finally, I repeat, do you feel that the Kerrs are unable to improve?
 
No Doris, I don't think the Kerr's are unable to improve, but whether or not they improve or skate well is not necessarily a reflection of where they'll be placed, that's out of their hands, clearly. The impression created by them finishing outside the top 10 is that "they had a bad week" as I saw posted on another forum [by a Brit incidentally] when they had no such thing. They skated a good CD and OD. The FD was a bit flat as by then they were deflated.

Denkova & Stavisky had to wait long enough to be recognized without a No.2 behind them. Going back 25 years to compare how other British Dance couples have fared in America is not really relevant, as the world has changed. Icedance has changed and CoP has changed, Skate America was not part of a GP circuit where the *top* nations, the hosts of the events, get preferential treatment over entries, so there's no chance of the GB No.2's ever receiving an invite. No, the Kerr's aren't Torvill & Dean - they are not clearly superior to every other couple around them. They are not in the top echelon yet either, not in the World's top 5 standard yet, however they were good enough and skated well enough to get inside the top 10 - yet did not.

Yes, they need to start the season stronger, but why should that have affected their position at Worlds 5 months later? It didn't hinder B&A from winning a medal did it? Also to reply to another poster, both the Kerr's and F&S have skated as couples considerably less years than either V&M or D&W - 2 exceptional couples.
 
Many of us did not get to see the Kerr's OD or CD on anything but youtube or fsvids. Their CD looked very good to me, particularly. And as you say yourself, the FD not so much, as they were deflated.

It is not so many years ago that an American couple, no matter how good, was not going to get the placing they deserved at Worlds. A good example from the T&D era would be Blumberg and Siebert at the 1984 Olympics.

And in the T&D era, Skate America began as something called something like Falling (or was it Flaming?) Leaves at Lake Placid. And there was the Moscow News Skate and Skate Canada. And the British had St. Ivels, later called Skate Electric. There was a fall group of international competitions long before the GP circuit. And yes, there has always seemed to me to be a 'home ice' advantage. Some things don't change much.

And yes DenSta had to wait a long time. The Kerrs may have to wait a long time, too. That is not fair, but unfairness in ice dance is nothing new. The important question, I feel, for any team, has to be, how can I improve my chances next year? And I still feel that coming to their first Grand Prix in tip top shape and loaded for bear would be helpful. This is something they can do.

Yes, their placing at worlds should have nothing to do with their Grand Prix /fall competitions performances, but the fact is, it does now, and it did 35 years ago, too, particularly for teams which are back in the pack and have not yet distinguished themselves from that pack. At the very best, a team like the Kerrs would be characterized as inconsistent, and when things are so close, as they are apt to be among the top teams in ice dance, a perception of inconsistency is not a good thing.

And yes, D&W and V&M have been skating together for a long, long time, both of them. But And I have to say that I would not have put the Kerrs over either at this worlds. Now G&P? Very possibly--I would have to see the performances live to be sure in my rankings of teams within +/2 to 3 placings of each other.

BTW, I do hope the Kerrs place better next year.
 
G&P fading? They had their best season ever. They made huge improvements with their new coaches, made their first ever GPF, and held onto the silver at US Nationals. I think maybe they got tired at the end of the season, but this year has been a very different one for the,. First, they actually did a few COI stops over the summer, they moved and started working with a new coach who changed their training schedule/style and also went back and reworked their technique, they actually got invited to that fall Cheesefest event (Campbells? Marshalls? I can't remember which is which!), did their two GP events PLUS the GPF, Nationals, and then Worlds. Oh, and she broke her foot somewhere along the way. Given the changes they've had, plus her injury, plus the added events they had this year, they still had a VERY respectable showing at Worlds. I'd be very surprised if we didn't see another huge improvement from them next season. We all have seen that when they skate mad, they skate good. And after what the judges did to them at World, they are probably plenty mad and will come back kicking and screaming.
 
DORISPULASKI said:
Davis and White are jumping ahead of those teams, for the same reason that Virtue and Moir are jumping ahead of those teams. Both D&W and V&M are awesome ice dancers. And D&W are improving very, very rapidly.

At this point D&W have the world's best twizzles, a distinction that carried B&A a long ways. They were the first team this year to get all level 4's on a free dance (at NHK), something G&P still have never done. They have great speed over the ice. They skate very close together. They managed to score higher in the Golden Waltz, one of the hardest CD's, at 4CC's than V&M.

And they have a hugely appealing personality on the ice.

Need any more reasons?
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Even if not, I've got one: Davis and White have been skating together for TEN YEARS. They've been working together longer than any other US ice dance team, and it shows. They have beautiful unison and connection that only comes from long, long association.
 
La Rhumba said:
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/SkateFans/message/179058 :agree:
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I liked this post from Alexander Zhulin: "Before people had
5.8, 5.9, 6.0. Everyone was worrying what marks Canadians, Russians
will get. Who will get jobbed or held up... Now you can't understand
anything." :laugh:

Now we can't figure out who got jobbed, the Canadians or the Russians? Ah, the good old days! Under the new judging system we can't tell who's cheating whom.
 
yeah I got a kick out of Zhulin's rant too... awwwwww too bad the new system isn't as easy to find a way to cheat with ;) (though I'm sure the new generation that has more experience will find a way, if they haven't already)
 
Tonichelle said:
yeah I got a kick out of Zhulin's rant too... awwwwww too bad the new system isn't as easy to find a way to cheat with ;) (though I'm sure the new generation that has more experience will find a way, if they haven't already)
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Do you really think that there aren't ways of cheating with the new system? I think the dance competition at this year's Worlds showed that it is quite possible.
 
as I said if they haven't already

I don't know if there was cheating involved so much as personal preference... *shrugs*
 
I think the Kerrs are on for bigger and better things, and they were unfortunate to finish in 11th. They've just changed coaches, moved abroad.... still managed to finish 5th in Europe - give them time.
 
My word to all American skaters and others as the case may be. DO NOT USE AMERICANA MUSIC. It doesn't go over big in Euope or Asia.

Joe
 
Joesitz said:
My word to all American skaters and others as the case may be. DO NOT USE AMERICANA MUSIC. It doesn't go over big in Euope or Asia.
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There might be some truth to that for I have only met 2 Asians that really like Jazz. But a ex from the UK (little tomato cherub Rach:love: ) liked jazz and even some country. Especally when I would sing to her. lol Of course these examples are all younger than the judges, and the 'Ol school mentality is likely keeping the music choices to a confined expectation.

But it still is sad that it would / could / might matter. :p
 
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Joesitz said:
My word to all American skaters and others as the case may be. DO NOT USE AMERICANA MUSIC. It doesn't go over big in Euope or Asia.

Joe
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I still look over my shoulder when I hear "Dueling Banjo's". But it has a fast sequence for footwork that only Davis/White could handle. Plus I know for a fact most of you wouldn't mind seeing Charlie in farmer over-alls with his moptop hair. :laugh:
 
1981 (Scott's first world championship
Igor Bobrin, a favorite of mine, from the then USSR, finished 3rd.
Fumio Igarashi, a brilliant skater too, finished 4th.

1982 (Scott's 2nd world championship)
Norbert Schramm FRG( no relation of Alan) finished 2nd
and Jean-Christophe Simond of France finished 5th
both Igarashi and Bobrin slipped out of the top 6.

1983 (Scott's 3rd world championship)
Norbert Schramm FRG again finished 2nd
Alexandr Fadeev USSR finished 4th
Jean-Christophe Simond of France finished 5th
Jozef Sabovcik CZE finished 6th

1984 (Scott's final world championship)
Alexandr Fadeev USSR finished 3rd
Jozef Sabovcik CZE finished 4th
Rudi Cerne FRG finished 5th

So while Japan was not well represented in the final 6, Europe surely was. And quite a good selection of countries too.,
 
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