Fantasy scoring for 2016 Worlds

[Daniel1998]

A while ago, a generous poster gave us a link to a nifty score calculation sheet that he/she created, so that we could all become judges.

I decided to put that to use, and score the third and fourth groups of the 2016 World Championship Ladies FS the way that I would, to see what the results would be.

Here is the actual protocol, for reference in case you want to compare the real scores to mine.
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1516/wc2016/wc2016_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

Now, I used a seven judge scoring system, and gave GOEs for each judge that I thought were a fair representation of what I thought the element should score. I used seven judges for more accuracy; for example, there are some elements that aren't necessarily a +1 or +2, but somewhere in between. Having seven GOEs helps keep that accuracy.

I made my OWN underrotation and edge calls, but since I don't know levels that well, I peeked at the protocol after finishing all twelve skaters and just went with the levels they gave.

*Obviously, this is my own opinion, and before anyone barrages me with angry messages about how I scored this skater and that skater, please respect my judgment, as I respect yours.*

Hope you enjoy! Sorry in advance for the length.

THIRD GROUP:

Mirai Nagasu
My protocol: https://snag.gy/cQkNX2.jpg
My score: 60.48/60.56 | 121.04
ISU score: 60.97/59.94 | 120.91

Comments: I gave Mirai nearly identical marks to that of the judging panel. Technically, I gave her one more underrotation than the judges did, on her 2A+3T. Like the judges, I gave her a ! on her first flip and carrots on her lutz and loop. Components were also nearly identical. I think Mirai was marked quite fairly.

Mao Asada
My protocol: https://snag.gy/ovlIxY.jpg
My score: 59.92/70.40 | 130.32
ISU score: 65.13/69.40 | 134.43

Comments: The specialist gave Mao carrots on the 3A, 3F+3Lo, and 2A+3T. I did the same but marked the 3Lo as <<, because I saw her skate hit the ice at 2.5 rotations in slow-mo, and gave her an additional carrot on a solo 3Lo. The specialist gave her an e on her lutz that I ignored because my camera angle wasn't great. I gave her slightly higher components than the judges did, but the extra carrots are why my score for her is lower than what she received.

Elizabet Tursynbaeva
My protocol: https://snag.gy/icuZyR.jpg
My score: 65.56/57.76 -1.00 | 122.32
ISU score: 67.39/55.60 -1.00 | 121.99

Comments: Again, I scored Elizabet very similarly to the judges. I gave her one underrotation on her 3S+3T combination which the judges did not, and therefore the technical score is lower. However, I compensated for that by giving her slightly higher component scores than the judges did, making the carrot a wash. I think Tursynbaeva got a fair score.

Rika Hongo
My protocol: https://snag.gy/zRrgPc.jpg
My score: 61.68/62.40 | 124.08
ISU score: 65.66/63.30 | 129.26

Comments: I gave Rika a slightly lower score than what the judges gave her. The main reason was that I called her lutz edge incorrect, whereas the ISU specialist did not. This was a 3 point difference, including GOE. The components are a point lower because I gave Rika about a half a point lower than the judges for skating skills, mainly due to her posture which I think could be improved. I gave her higher marks for the rest of the categories, because I love that program for her and she skates it well.

Zijun Li
My protocol: https://snag.gy/96im7S.jpg
My score: 58.22/60.72 | 118.94
ISU score: 59.40/59.73 | 119.13

Comments: Again, I am mostly in agreement with the judges here. I did give Zijun one more carrot than the judges, on both flips rather than one, but the specialist and I agreed about her incorrect lutz edge. This difference is largely made up by the fact that I like Zijun's skating a bit more than the judges do, and I'm realizing now I could have given her higher scores than I did.

Gabby Daleman
My protocol: https://snag.gy/KH1knC.jpg
My score: 65.00/63.28 | 128.28
ISU score: 65.15/63.15 | 128.30

Comments: Gabby's pretty easy to judge, since she rarely EVER underrotates and rarely EVER has edge problems. That being said, ISU protocol has her flip at a !, which I didn't notice. Otherwise, we were mostly in sync, and again, I feel like I could actually have given Gabby even higher components just for her speed alone.

FOURTH GROUP:

Elena Radionova
My protocol: https://snag.gy/NCVi1W.jpg
My score: 67.00/65.36 | 132.26
ISU score: 70.17/67.94 | 138.11

Comments: The judges gave Elena no carrots, whereas I gave her an underrotation on her first double axel. In general, I gave her lower GOEs than the judges, who IMO gave her jumps higher GOEs than they deserved. I also wasn't so keen on Elena's components, since I am not a fan of that Titanic program nor do I think she has particularly amazing skating skills. That explains the difference.

Evgenia Medvedeva
My protocol: https://snag.gy/j4kdvi.jpg
My score: 70.91/69.12 | 140.03
ISU score: 77.76/72.34 | 150.10

Comments: The big difference in technical score is due to a few reasons. Firstly, I gave Evgenia an edge call on the lutz that I thought was pretty obvious, but went ignored by the caller. Secondly, I gave her slightly lower GOEs on nearly all her jumping passes- I rarely gave her any +3's and stuck to a mix of +1 and +2, since I find she tanoes a bit too much and the jumps are a bit muscled. I actually thought I overmarked her components and they still came out to a 69. 72.34 to me isn't a fair judgment of her skating ability when you consider what greats like Yuna and Caro have received for PCS in the past.

Satoko Miyahara
My protocol: https://snag.gy/aBZ5Dc.jpg
My score: 73.62/68.64 | 142.26
ISU score: 73.54/66.35 | 139.89

Comments: Satoko is one of the few skaters I actually scored considerably higher than the judges did. Her Un Sospiro program is a favourite of mine, which explains the high component scores. I think her skating is much better than 66.35 suggests, and I would argue her performance quality was at least comparable to Medvedeva's, if not better. I looked hard for underrotations but didn't find any obvious ones- she came down cleanly on most jumps. (Yes, I know we had a discussion about her prerotation and such, but I looked past that here because to me, it's hard to tell.) I'd actually have this performance in first place.

Anna Pogorilaya
My protocol: https://snag.gy/YCH7N4.jpg
My score: 68.93/68.72 | 137.65
ISU score: 71.60/68.11 | 139.71

Comments: Once again, the difference in technical score comes down to an edge call- the caller gave Anna's flip a ! and I thought the error was big enough to warrant an e. The other elements were scored nearly exactly the same way and I thought her component scores were fair.

Gracie Gold
My protocol: https://snag.gy/KbJdCE.jpg
My score: 61.02/68.32 | 129.34
ISU score: 66.01/69.85 -1.00 | 134.86

Comments: I realized after I did this that the ISU credited Gracie with a fall on that crab-walk position she ended up in after the opening combo, whereas I didn't. The judges gave her slightly higher GOEs overall than I did, and I also marked her flip with an e whereas the caller only gave her a !. I thought she was slightly overscored on components, which is acceptable given home advantage. The inflation wasn't egregious.

Ashley Wagner
My protocol: https://snag.gy/PtbMIq.jpg
My score: 61.89/69.92 | 131.81
ISU score: 68.45/73.78 | 142.23

Comments: The huge discrepancy between the two scores here can mostly be attributed to home advantage. The judges gave Ashley two carrots, one on the flip-toe and the solo flip, which I agreed with, but they missed the carrot on the loop-half loop-salchow combination, which was frankly quite obvious. I actually nearly gave the salchow a downgrade. In general the judges gave nearly every element a higher GOE than I did, especially on her spins, which I think are fine, but not as good as the judges made them out to be. 73.78 for components is a stretch for Ashley, and while I gave her well-deserved 9's for some categories like performance, I think anything over mid 8's for skating skills and transitions is unwarranted.

Actual free skate standings:
1. Evgenia Medvedeva 150.10
2. Ashley Wagner 142.23
3. Satoko Miyahara 139.89
4. Anna Pogorilaya 139.71
5. Elena Radionova 138.11
6. Gracie Gold 134.86
7. Mao Asada 134.43
8. Rika Hongo 129.26
9. Gabby Daleman 128.30
10. Elizabet Tursynbaeva 121.99
11. Mirai Nagasu 120.91
12. Zijun Li 119.13

My free skate standings:
1. Satoko Miyahara 142.26
2. Evgenia Medvedeva 140.03
3. Anna Pogorilaya 137.65
4. Elena Radionova 132.26
5. Ashley Wagner 131.81
6. Mao Asada 130.32
7. Gracie Gold 129.34
8. Gabby Daleman 128.28
9. Rika Hongo 124.08
10. Elizabet Tursynbaeva 122.32
11. Mirai Nagasu 121.04
12. Zijun Li 118.94

 

[randomfan]

Coincidentally and amazingly I was actually just done reading through the Worlds Ladies threads again because I was bored! Anyways, interesting analysis. Thank you for showing the protocols you made and putting in the nice explanations for each skater's score!

Also, I remember that Blades of Passion created a thread where he and several other posters (including me) shared their own scoring and judging of the ladies event. It was fun and I'm hoping that it can be brought back soon.

Here it is: http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...t-Your-quot-scoring-of-the-2016-Worlds-Ladies

 

[lbamda]

And why you have hidden the wrong edge at Miyahara on Flip? Each jump of Miyahara has to receive according to the rules ISU: Poor height:-1 - 2 , Lacking rotation:-1 . Total the maximum GOE for her jumps have to be not higher than 0/+1 . And it is fair - for bad jumps there can't be high GOE.

 

[moriel]

Imho, you totally overscored Satoko - you were pretty harsh in giving carrots to other skaters, so why not to call her pre-rotations?
She deserved at least 2 carrots in her free, on both 2A+3T the 3T was pre-rotated quite a lot. Maybe even more with your strict calls.

 

[thegreendestiny]

The OP is clearly someone is has lost touch with the times and reality.

When he/she mentioned Yuna, Caro and PCS in the Medvedeva comment, the credibility of the whole article/post was automatically discredited. Nice try though.

 

[[email protected]]

The OP is clearly someone is has lost touch with the times and reality.

When he/she mentioned Yuna, Caro and PCS in the Medvedeva comment, the credibility of the whole article/post was automatically discredited. Nice try though.

Agreed. There was a similar thread where some questionable alternative reality was offered. At least it was timed to the event. Taking out Boston protocols now and offering those outcomes means just that OP likes Satoko, dislikes Zhenya (because "Yuna, Mao, Caro, etc. were much better) and ignores the reality in which Medvedeva is the reigning WC and Satoko was just fifth.

I can agree to a point with Ashley's downgrade. I also thought that 1 UR was not called. But her pcs were deserved: she was on fire that night like she never was before. My only complaint is that because of that uncalled UR Pogo missed her "fair" silver.

The funny thing though is that if the OP does not challenge SP results, the final podium would be the same in the Russian part. The difference is that Satoko would replace Ashley as the silver medalist. I guess, American colleagues would disagree with such an outcome.

 

[thegreendestiny]

When Yuna fans start questioning Medvedeva's skating skills as being "juniorish" with "inflated PCS", "tanos", "backloading" and that "Yuna this", "Mao this" or "Caro that", they automatically lose any form of credibility. There is a reason they rant behind a computer instead of being at a judge's panel or a commentator's box because they really don't know what they're talking about most of the time. More than her skating, I adore Medvedeva more for putting these faux "experts" in their place and driving them nuts.

 

[Pika]

"I gave Rika about a half a point lower than the judges for skating skills, mainly due to her posture" wut ? there's a non sense here.

 

[Daniel1998]

The OP is clearly someone is has lost touch with the times and reality.

When he/she mentioned Yuna, Caro and PCS in the Medvedeva comment, the credibility of the whole article/post was automatically discredited. Nice try though.

I don't really think any skater right now should be getting above 9's for skating skills, because I don't think anyone now has the skating skills that Yuna or Carolina had when they were competing, and they were receiving scores around 9 and low 9's when they were competing. And Medvedeva is getting those kinds of numbers, which I disagree with. She's a lovely skater, but I find her PCS overscored. I also disagreed with Ashley getting 9's for skating skills, though I understand with the circumstances why they boosted her. Not sure what's wrong with that. Overall, I think Medvedeva is still the best skater in the world.

 

[Daniel1998]

When Yuna fans start questioning Medvedeva's skating skills as being "juniorish" with "inflated PCS", "tanos", "backloading" and that "Yuna this", "Mao this" or "Caro that", they automatically lose any form of credibility. There is a reason they rant behind a computer instead of being at a judge's panel or a commentator's box because they really don't know what they're talking about most of the time. More than her skating, I adore Medvedeva more for putting these faux "experts" in their place and driving them nuts.

Once again, an exaggeration to a "critical" post of Medvedeva. Name one place where I called her skating juniorish. Hint: I didn't.

If you look at my PCS scores, I ranked Medvedeva second behind Mao, which means I still consider her one of the most skilled skaters in the senior field. I would not be able to justify such scores for any junior.

In my eyes, she shouldn't be getting 9's because she doesn't compare to the people who were getting 9's a couple of years ago. If that makes me a non-credlble source, then so be it. Place your faith in the same judging system that gives Medvedeva higher skating skills scores than Mao Asada, if that is your definition of credibility.

The problem with this board is that every time someone says Medvedeva is slightly overscored, that person becomes a "Medvedeva hater" in the eyes of others. I am far from a Medvedeva hater, and actually enjoy her skating and admire her technical prowess, and I have said so numerous times on this forum. Don't jump to conclusions every single time you read something- not all negative posters are "haters" and "ranters". The only posters losing credibility are people who make such assumptions.

 

[jimini]

Evgenia Medvedeva

Comments: The big difference in technical score is due to a few reasons. Firstly, I gave Evgenia an edge call on the lutz that I thought was pretty obvious, but went ignored by the caller. Secondly, I gave her slightly lower GOEs on nearly all her jumping passes- I rarely gave her any +3's and stuck to a mix of +1 and +2, since I find she tanoes a bit too much and the jumps are a bit muscled. I actually thought I overmarked her components and they still came out to a 69. 72.34 to me isn't a fair judgment of her skating ability when you consider what greats like Yuna and Caro have received for PCS in the past.

The section I've underlined seems like a very peculiar comment if your goal here is to judge in accordance with the rules which are in place. Judges would give Evgenia a bullet credit toward jump GOE for each of the tanos, regardless of how many there are since the tanos are valid GOE bullets.

 

[andromache]

The section I've underlined seems like a very peculiar comment if your goal here is to judge in accordance with the rules which are in place. Judges would give Evgenia a bullet credit toward jump GOE for each of the tanos, regardless of how many there are since the tanos are valid GOE bullets.

It's my understanding that judges follow recommendations/guidelines for these, but the awarded number of points are not mandatory. Otherwise all GOE marks from all judges would be the same. Mandatory GOE +/- comes in only when deducting, I believe. https://www.usfigureskating.org/content/JS13-Singles-GOE-FS.pdf
http://iceskatingresources.org/IJSGradesOfExecution.html

Plus, it's obvious judges do what they want, and evaluating element quality is subjective to a certain extent. Do judges think about each individual GOE bullet when evaluating a jump? Doubt it. For many, I imagine it is a "gut" reaction.

 

[moriel]

Once again, an exaggeration to a "critical" post of Medvedeva. Name one place where I called her skating juniorish. Hint: I didn't.

If you look at my PCS scores, I ranked Medvedeva second behind Mao, which means I still consider her one of the most skilled skaters in the senior field. I would not be able to justify such scores for any junior.

In my eyes, she shouldn't be getting 9's because she doesn't compare to the people who were getting 9's a couple of years ago. If that makes me a non-credlble source, then so be it. Place your faith in the same judging system that gives Medvedeva higher skating skills scores than Mao Asada, if that is your definition of credibility.

The problem with this board is that every time someone says Medvedeva is slightly overscored, that person becomes a "Medvedeva hater" in the eyes of others. I am far from a Medvedeva hater, and actually enjoy her skating and admire her technical prowess, and I have said so numerous times on this forum. Don't jump to conclusions every single time you read something- not all negative posters are "haters" and "ranters". The only posters losing credibility are people who make such assumptions.

People are mostly complaining about the tech scores you gave, btw

 

[Imagine]

Is there a fanfiction subforum here? Methinks this may have been put in the wrong place.

 

[andromache]

Reading through this entire thread, it's shocking how nasty some people are behaving right off the bat. IMO, OP presented a decent case, based on a combination of objective and SUBJECTIVE criteria which, y'know, makes this sport what it is. Feel free to disagree, but calling OP a hater when it's obvious they like a lot about Evgenia's skating? Come on. Not everything is about nationalism and hating Russians.

FWIW, I think Satoko's fifth was well-deserved due to her jump problems and the fact that, subjectively, I find her programs to be far less emotionally resonant and convincingly interpreted than Evgenia, Ashley, and Anna, whereas Gracie lacks the emotion, but still has a wow-factor in her on ice presence and speed that Satoko just hasn't cultivated yet. (And I think the size of her jumps impacts this perception and always will. Jumping small makes it seem you like you skate small, even if that isn't factually the case.)

Evgenia was rightfully in first.

Anna and Ashley's placements could've gone either way depending on the night and the venue. It favored Ashley this time. I'm certainly not going to Anna wuzrobbed or that Ashley's silver was unfair.

My impression of this thread is that OP isn't trying hate on Evgenia. They're trying to analyze the event and give opinions. Which we would probably see more of on this board if people weren't so obsessed with calling every single person a hater.

 

[jimini]

It's my understanding that judges follow recommendations/guidelines for these, but the awarded number of points are not mandatory. Otherwise all GOE marks from all judges would be the same. Mandatory GOE +/- comes in only when deducting, I believe. https://www.usfigureskating.org/content/JS13-Singles-GOE-FS.pdf
http://iceskatingresources.org/IJSGradesOfExecution.html

Plus, it's obvious judges do what they want, and evaluating element quality is subjective to a certain extent. Do judges think about each individual GOE bullet when evaluating a jump? Doubt it. For many, I imagine it is a "gut" reaction.

GOE is not mandatory, no, but for most judges at this level, they are very familiar with top-level skaters' routines and their jumping technique. They already likely know what GOE they give a skater for their jumps, then tweak accordingly dependent on how the skater performs it and what the tech panel does. So I'm not sure I agree that it's only a "gut" reaction unless it is literally the first time the judge has seen the skater. This also tends to be the reason why new skaters' GOE & PCS tends to spike around quite widely early in their careers: the judges simply aren't that familiar with their skating and all the nuances of it yet.

 

[Daniel1998]

Reading through this entire thread, it's shocking how nasty some people are behaving right off the bat. IMO, OP presented a decent case, based on a combination of objective and SUBJECTIVE criteria which, y'know, makes this sport what it is. Feel free to disagree, but calling OP a hater when it's obvious they like a lot about Evgenia's skating? Come on. Not everything is about nationalism and hating Russians.

FWIW, I think Satoko's fifth was well-deserved due to her jump problems and the fact that, subjectively, I find her programs to be far less emotionally resonant and convincingly interpreted than Evgenia, Ashley, and Anna, whereas Gracie lacks the emotion, but still has a wow-factor in her on ice presence and speed that Satoko just hasn't cultivated yet. (And I think the size of her jumps impacts this perception and always will. Jumping small makes it seem you like you skate small, even if that isn't factually the case.)

This is fair. I often wonder what kind of marks Satoko would get on the presentation side if she jumped big, since she is quite fluid and has good edge work in her skating. You're right that even with this, her jumping makes the rest of her skating seem small. People like Kaetlyn and Gabby, who both jump with tons of height, have seen a rapid increase in PCS now that they're jumping big with some consistency, so I think there's merit to that statement.

 

[curious]

Reading through this entire thread, it's shocking how nasty some people are behaving right off the bat. IMO, OP presented a decent case, based on a combination of objective and SUBJECTIVE criteria which, y'know, makes this sport what it is. Feel free to disagree, but calling OP a hater when it's obvious they like a lot about Evgenia's skating? Come on. Not everything is about nationalism and hating Russians.

FWIW, I think Satoko's fifth was well-deserved due to her jump problems and the fact that, subjectively, I find her programs to be far less emotionally resonant and convincingly interpreted than Evgenia, Ashley, and Anna, whereas Gracie lacks the emotion, but still has a wow-factor in her on ice presence and speed that Satoko just hasn't cultivated yet. (And I think the size of her jumps impacts this perception and always will. Jumping small makes it seem you like you skate small, even if that isn't factually the case.)

Evgenia was rightfully in first.

Anna and Ashley's placements could've gone either way depending on the night and the venue. It favored Ashley this time. I'm certainly not going to Anna wuzrobbed or that Ashley's silver was unfair.

My impression of this thread is that OP isn't trying hate on Evgenia. They're trying to analyze the event and give opinions. Which we would probably see more of on this board if people weren't so obsessed with calling every single person a hater.

You're right,but I do think anna deserved second place over Ashley. She was in second after a clean sp and fp unlike ashely.

 

[Alchamei]

The OP is clearly someone is has lost touch with the times and reality.

When he/she mentioned Yuna, Caro and PCS in the Medvedeva comment, the credibility of the whole article/post was automatically discredited. Nice try though.

And may I ask why? Yuna and Caro stopped competing only recently, so I don't see a problem here with the comparism. And the fact that she outscores a veteran like Mao doesn't seem right as well. Also, the OP is not hating, so why are you acting like they should be thrown to prison?

 

[[email protected]]

Reading through this entire thread, it's shocking how nasty some people are behaving right off the bat. IMO, OP presented a decent case, based on a combination of objective and SUBJECTIVE criteria which, y'know, makes this sport what it is. Feel free to disagree, but calling OP a hater when it's obvious they like a lot about Evgenia's skating? Come on. Not everything is about nationalism and hating Russians.

FWIW, I think Satoko's fifth was well-deserved due to her jump problems and the fact that, subjectively, I find her programs to be far less emotionally resonant and convincingly interpreted than Evgenia, Ashley, and Anna, whereas Gracie lacks the emotion, but still has a wow-factor in her on ice presence and speed that Satoko just hasn't cultivated yet. (And I think the size of her jumps impacts this perception and always will. Jumping small makes it seem you like you skate small, even if that isn't factually the case.)

Evgenia was rightfully in first.

Anna and Ashley's placements could've gone either way depending on the night and the venue. It favored Ashley this time. I'm certainly not going to Anna wuzrobbed or that Ashley's silver was unfair.

My impression of this thread is that OP isn't trying hate on Evgenia. They're trying to analyze the event and give opinions. Which we would probably see more of on this board if people weren't so obsessed with calling every single person a hater.

I think you get too emotional. Where is "nasty behavior"? The OP started quite a random thread. His analysis of a competition which was already discussed in 300 pages a year ago brought Satoko to the very top ahead of Medvedeva. The explanation was that Medvedeva's GOE was too high because of the tanos and "muscled" jumps and pcs were too high becuse the skaters from the past were better. There were polite may be a bit sarcastic answers that this analysis is ridiculous because it is not the analysis at all but just a manifestation of the personal taste. What was nasty about it?