Fantasy scoring for 2016 Worlds

[skylark]

There's an element that the 2016 Worlds judges recognized but the OP didn't: Magic. The three actual medalists all had large dollops of magic in their performances that night. The current judges, having been skaters and possibly judges before IJS, know that the power of the performance, which is sometimes indefinable, is essential to this sport.

Ashley's FS, by the power of her music, her charisma, and her interpretation, transcended and made unimportant the small, nearly invisible errors,. She didn't let the error on the flip, which was the only one visible to most, deter or stop her. That was also part of her magic. The audiences (live and tv/video) had just seen Gracie crumble as soon as she made an error, although admittedly it was a big awkward one; they'd also seen the fear in Gracie's eyes. In Ashley's devotion to her performance, to her music and to her character, they saw her determination to give her best in that moment, in every second of the skate, and not let imperfection deter her from delivering a brilliant skate for the ages. She created a moment.

Evgenia's FS was also filled with magic of nearly the opposite kind. Her very high scores, in part, reflected the power that she created and sustained by her mental strength, her technical goods, and her nearly unbelievable consistency. To see a 16-year-old accomplish that was remarkable. But it was also the skate itself: the power of her jumping, footwork etc. served the program, so that she also created a moment. She projected an emotional commitment to her performance that transcended quibbles about tanos or other tech quibbles.

Anna's magic was in how she created and showed herself to be the skater she always believed herself to be. She skates like a woman and shows the power of mature moves, even if, for me, the interpretation wasn't totally there yet. She showed the impact of beautiful technique and big, engaging music powered with something extra ... singleness of purpose, a desire to prove herself, something extra I can't name.

The only magic the OP acknowledged was the magic of elevating Satoko because she's your favorite. In my opinion, that isn't enough for judging "a sport, after all," that has always been, in equal measure, an art.

 

[[email protected]]

Beautiful words - would not say better.

 

[andromache]

I think you get too emotional. Where is "nasty behavior"? The OP started quite a random thread. His analysis of a competition which was already discussed in 300 pages a year ago brought Satoko to the very top ahead of Medvedeva. The explanation was that Medvedeva's GOE was too high because of the tanos and "muscled" jumps and pcs were too high becuse the skaters from the past were better. There were polite may be a bit sarcastic answers that this analysis is ridiculous because it is not the analysis at all but just a manifestation of the personal taste. What was nasty about it?

Sure, because all the comments about how OP has lost touch with reality were super classy, as were the inferences that OP is an Evgenia hater .

Random threads start here all the time. There was one about "what do you like about Mirai Nagasu?" I found it a little unnecessary because we have the fan fest forums, but I didn't go in there and starting spreading negativity. People like analyzing and re-analyzing competitions. It's fun.

Fact is, any analysis of a figure skating competition by anyone in the world is going to manifest someone's personal taste. Figure skating is a subjective sport. By it's very nature it is judged partially based on personal taste.

I don't even think OP was being overly-critical of the judging; just offering their own scores derived from a cool calculation sheet that helps with the math to calculate scores and stating why they arrived at the scores they arrived at. While I get annoyed with comments that criticize judging across competitions, if someone wants to score a competition (for real or for fun) while keeping in mind performances/scores of the past, that's fine.

This forum has transformed into a place where nothing negative or critical can be said about certain skaters or you immediately get ganged up on and insulted. That negativity breeds more negativity, and quite frankly, on a forum with fairly strict rules and where I am not allowed to use curse words, I expect people to comport themselves with some sort of decorum and respect for discourse in which GUESS WHAT sometimes people disagree with one another, and it's possible to disagree without going towards a downhill spiral of negativity. The ice dance and pairs threads seem to be good pretty good at this, but any ladies discussion is ridiculous.

OP and I had a brief back-and-forth in which we disagreed regarding Satoko's deserved PCS in comparison to others, and no one got insulted or got their opinion dismissed as being stupid or out of touch with reality.

 

[skylark]

thank you! samkrut. :luv17:

 

[sabinfire]

thank you! samkrut. :luv17:

I really liked it too! :agree:

 

[Daniel1998]

There's an element that the 2016 Worlds judges recognized but the OP didn't: Magic. The three actual medalists all had large dollops of magic in their performances that night.

Yes, this is a great point. Perhaps I did see a bit more magic in Satoko's performance than in others'.
But it also raises the question- how do you judge "magic"? So much of figure skating, and what one feels from watching a performance, is based on the intangible and the unmeasurable. It's impossible to quantify. That's where a lot of debate and heated conversation comes from when it comes to scoring. (I suppose that's also why we need 9 judges- because some people see more magic in some performances than others.)
It's a tradeoff, I guess. The more magical and emotional capabilities a sport possesses, the more controversial the results.

 

[[email protected]]

Sure, because all the comments about how OP has lost touch with reality were super classy, as were the inferences that OP is an Evgenia hater .

Random threads start here all the time. There was one about "what do you like about Mirai Nagasu?" I found it a little unnecessary because we have the fan fest forums, but I didn't go in there and starting spreading negativity. People like analyzing and re-analyzing competitions. It's fun.

2 things - I looked through the thread - it's not big and I still did not see "nasty behavior" and accusation that OP is Evgenia's hater. In fact I could find nothing on "hate" at all - the word was not used in any of its forms. So aren't you exaggerating? One person said something about losing touch with reality taking out Yuna as an argument in the "analysis". I agree fully with that statement. Once again where is "hate"?

Second thing, I am not against threads about Nagasu or the favorite programs of Satoko. Yes, they could be in Fan Fest, still they are positive. This thread is negative. It would be much better if the OP just said: "I like Satoko and for me she should have won the FS in Boston". Instead we have "analysis" which did not make sense to some of those who read it and they openly told the OP about it even explaining why. So let's just stay calm. I have a lot to say about nasty behavior of those who just accused Adelina of taking doping but I rather have mods taking decision than fighting senseless virtual duels.

 

[skylark]

This forum has transformed into a place where nothing negative or critical can be said about certain skaters or you immediately get ganged up on and insulted.

With a few exceptions. For one example, Ashley gets pounded on regularly and repetitiously and is dismissed or dissed for things that are mostly a matter of taste. Although her imperfections are no less arguable than anyone's, her fans pretty much let those words pouf into the air ... so much so that for a long time, I thought I was the only Ashley fan on the whole forum. I've discovered it isn't the case; many of us love Ashley and greatly value what she brings to the sport.

That negativity breeds more negativity, and quite frankly, on a forum with fairly strict rules and where I am not allowed to use curse words, I expect people to comport themselves with some sort of decorum and respect for discourse in which GUESS WHAT sometimes people disagree with one another, and it's possible to disagree without going towards a downhill spiral of negativity. The ice dance and pairs threads seem to be good pretty good at this, but any ladies discussion is ridiculous.

:agree:Signing onto this, big time.

 

[Daniel1998]

2 things - I looked through the thread - it's not big and I still did not see "nasty behavior" and accusation that OP is Evgenia's hater. In fact I could find nothing on "hate" at all - the word was not used in any of its forms. So aren't you exaggerating? One person said something about losing touch with reality taking out Yuna as an argument in the "analysis". I agree fully with that statement. Once again where is "hate"?

Second thing, I am not against threads about Nagasu or the favorite programs of Satoko. Yes, they could be in Fan Fest, still they are positive. This thread is negative. It would be much better if the OP just said: "I like Satoko and for me she should have won the FS in Boston". Instead we have "analysis" which did not make sense to some of those who read it and they openly told the OP about it even explaining why.

When Yuna fans start questioning Medvedeva's skating skills as being "juniorish" with "inflated PCS", "tanos", "backloading" and that "Yuna this", "Mao this" or "Caro that", they automatically lose any form of credibility. There is a reason they rant behind a computer instead of being at a judge's panel or a commentator's box because they really don't know what they're talking about most of the time. More than her skating, I adore Medvedeva more for putting these faux "experts" in their place and driving them nuts.

Oh, I'm sorry, this comment isn't inflammatory? Not only does this lump Yuna fans into a group of "Medvedeva" haters (you do not have to use the word "hate" to imply someone is a hater), but I was also called non-credible, "losing touch with reality" and a "faux expert", when I never made an attempt to call myself an expert in the first place. There are much nicer ways to disagree and facilitate discussion, which andromache did so eloquently in his/her post. When I see posts like above, that fuels negativity, not interesting discussion. Disagree with me, sure, but do it in a way that we can create dialogue.

For example, please explain to me exactly why making a comparison to skaters who skated just two years ago to reason that PCS are inflated nowadays for the top skaters is "losing touch with reality". I'm curious why so many people find this an unfair comparison.

Frankly, I don't understand this forum sometimes. We bash each other all the time for saying subjective things without explaining why, but when I actually give a reason for my opinion, I get bashed too. Figure skating is a SUBJECTIVE sport. I used the word "analysis" but never tried to claim that my subjective opinions were objective and concrete facts. That's impossible in figure skating. Why is that so hard to understand?

 

[skylark]

Yes, this is a great point. Perhaps I did see a bit more magic in Satoko's performance than in others'.
But it also raises the question- how do you judge "magic"? So much of figure skating, and what one feels from watching a performance, is based on the intangible and the unmeasurable. It's impossible to quantify. That's where a lot of debate and heated conversation comes from when it comes to scoring. (I suppose that's also why we need 9 judges- because some people see more magic in some performances than others.)
It's a tradeoff, I guess. The more magical and emotional capabilities a sport possesses, the more controversial the results.

yeah, that's why a system of numbers and measurements fails the sport. Fortunately, the system builds in ways for the judging to be tempered, and also ways for the judging to include the intangible.

 

[[email protected]]

This forum has transformed into a place where nothing negative or critical can be said about certain skaters or you immediately get ganged up on and insulted. That negativity breeds more negativity, and quite frankly, on a forum with fairly strict rules and where I am not allowed to use curse words, I expect people to comport themselves with some sort of decorum and respect for discourse in which GUESS WHAT sometimes people disagree with one another, and it's possible to disagree without going towards a downhill spiral of negativity. The ice dance and pairs threads seem to be good pretty good at this, but any ladies discussion is ridiculous.

You mean certain Russian skaters or someone else I wonder? If you mean the certain Russian lady skater, just give an example of a dance or a pair team which has a biweekly fresh thread in the Edge dedicated to this or that problem of that team, where a forum member expresses the desire to spit in the face, etc. Negativity breeds negativity, it's true and I hate that I have to be continuously on the defense side. I am very close now to start ignoring the discussions whatsoever. I was just happy writing about what I saw in Chelyabinsk not bothering to read the parallel thread.

 

[Daniel1998]

You mean certain Russian skaters or someone else I wonder? If you mean the certain Russian lady skater, just give an example of a dance or a pair team which has a biweekly fresh thread in the Edge dedicated to this or that problem of that team, where a forum member expresses the desire to spit in the face, etc. Negativity breeds negativity, it's true and I hate that I have to be continuously on the defense side. I am very close now to start ignoring the discussions whatsoever. I was just happy writing about what I saw in Chelyabinsk not bothering to read the parallel thread.

I understand that Medvedeva is the subject of a lot of discussion on the boards, and some of that, like the spitting in the face you mentioned, is so ridiculous that it merits no reply. Don't waste your time on people like that.

But I posted this topic for fun since I was playing around with the scoring sheet, and to see what other opinions were. I never meant to demean or belittle any of the competitors but it seems like it came off that way to others, and if so, I apologize. I'm open to hearing other people's opinions if they're willing to listen to mine, but it seems that people are so used to talking to senseless fools on the topic of Medvedeva that I'm branded as one as soon as something critical comes out of my mouth. When I see replies like that, it sometimes makes me think, why bother try to fuel discussion at all?

 

[sabinfire]

Negativity breeds negativity, it's true and I hate that I have to be continuously on the defense side. I am very close now to start ignoring the discussions whatsoever. I was just happy writing about what I saw in Chelyabinsk not bothering to read the parallel thread.

Might be a good idea. Myself, I don't post very much these days when a major competition isn't currently happening, as there usually isn't much to really talk about. People start getting really goofy and have circular discussions.

 

[[email protected]]

When Yuna fans start questioning Medvedeva's skating skills as being "juniorish" with "inflated PCS", "tanos", "backloading" and that "Yuna this", "Mao this" or "Caro that", they automatically lose any form of credibility. There is a reason they rant behind a computer instead of being at a judge's panel or a commentator's box because they really don't know what they're talking about most of the time. More than her skating, I adore Medvedeva more for putting these faux "experts" in their place and driving them nuts.

Oh, I'm sorry, this comment isn't inflammatory? Not only does this lump Yuna fans into a group of "Medvedeva" haters (you do not have to use the word "hate" to imply someone is a hater), but I was also called non-credible, "losing touch with reality" and a "faux expert", when I never made an attempt to call myself an expert in the first place. There are much nicer ways to disagree and facilitate discussion, which andromache did so eloquently in his/her post. When I see posts like above, that fuels negativity, not interesting discussion. Disagree with me, sure, but do it in a way that we can create dialogue.

For example, please explain to me exactly why making a comparison to skaters who skated just two years ago to reason that PCS are inflated nowadays for the top skaters is "losing touch with reality". I'm curious why so many people find this an unfair comparison.

Frankly, I don't understand this forum sometimes. We bash each other all the time for saying subjective things without explaining why, but when I actually give a reason for my opinion, I get bashed too. Figure skating is a SUBJECTIVE sport. I used the word "analysis" but never tried to claim that my subjective opinions were objective and concrete facts. That's impossible in figure skating. Why is that so hard to understand?

I will be quite open as well. I think bringing Yuna as an argument discussing Medvedeva's score is fully irrelevant. First it is about a particular set of skaters and a particular set of judges on a particular night. And as skylark eloquently said relative pcs of Ashley, Zhenya, and Anna vs. Satoko were fair because they just were better in pcs department. That's what I think as a spectator, that is what 8 professional judges from different countries thought as well. Hence, I can say that your pcs score is just your personal opinion which alas has little to do with reality. And as it claims to change the status quo, yes some fans get excited.

Second, and here I take a risk of bashing myself. When we say Yuna, it is not 2 years ago. I rewatched her Vancouver program. Yes, it was powerful beautiful 2010 skating. If we take Yuna in Sochi, sorry, I don't see why her pcs should be higher than Medvedeva's. I saw her live and I was not impressed. And I never have any prejudices against any skaters. I just say what I think. So it is "analysis" and bring Yuna into it is irrelevant. Let's see Caro in a month. I might even fly to Ostrava if they still have tickets not on balcony 2. Then I shall see them together and compare.

 

[Daniel1998]

I will be quite open as well. I think bringing Yuna as an argument discussing Medvedeva's score is fully irrelevant. First it is about a particular set of skaters and a particular set of judges on a particular night. And as skylark eloquently said relative pcs of Ashley, Zhenya, and Anna vs. Satoko were fair because they just were better in pcs department. That's what I think as a spectator, that is what 8 professional judges from different countries thought as well. Hence, I can say that your pcs score is just your personal opinion which alas has little to do with reality. And as it claims to change the status quo, yes some fans get excited.

Second, and here I take a risk of bashing myself. When we say Yuna, it is not 2 years ago. I rewatched her Vancouver program. Yes, it was powerful beautiful 2010 skating. If we take Yuna in Sochi, sorry, I don't see why her pcs should be higher than Medvedeva's. I saw her live and I was not impressed. And I never have any prejudices against any skaters. I just say what I think. So it is "analysis" and bring Yuna into it is irrelevant. Let's see Caro in a month. I might even fly to Ostrava if they still have tickets not on balcony 2. Then I shall see them together and compare.

What I find interesting about what you said was that Yuna actually received 4 points less in PCS for her free skate in Vancouver than she did in Sochi, yet you prefer her skating in Vancouver. 8 judges disagree with you there. Does that mean your opinion "has little to do with reality" as well? Probably not. It's a fair opinion, but against what the ISU thinks. Just because someone disagrees with what the judges say does not mean their opinion is invalid, especially since the ISU's version of "reality" is occasionally skewed.

I'm not the biggest fan of Yuna's Adios Nonino program, since I felt her tension during that performance, so I won't comment there, but I think her Send in the Clowns short program at Sochi was a masterpiece. She utilized every musical phrase with gestures, had a delicate but powerful step sequence perfectly timed with the instrumentation, and the jumps, which were spectacular, were almost forgotten, like afterthoughts, as a result. That nuanced skating and interpretation of the music to me is unmatched even today, which is why I get confused when I see skaters this year receiving similar scores for skating skills and interpretation. That's all.

I'd love to see Caro live... I hope if you go, she nails all her triples for you.

 

[karne]

Here's the thing I don't get, Daniel1998. You're trying to proclaim that you're being more nitpicky and harsh regarding the jumps with edge calls/UR/<</GOE. That's fine. I'm always way more harsh than the TP inevitably is.

But you set a double-standard in your post, which is what I certainly took objection to when I first read it last night and what I think some of the others took objection to. You hammered everyone except Satoko Miyahara. If you didn't call her PR, well, fine, a lot of people aren't. But she had UR in there that you clearly haven't called, other jumping issues, and quite apart from everything else, the height and distance on her jumps is woeful, especially when you compare her directly to Medvedeva (and the judges would have been subconsciously doing that, especially because Miyahara skated right after Medvedeva). Medvedeva also skated big - she was reaching out into the stands with her performance. Miyahara's skating, in comparison, looked very small.

I just find it odd that you're setting such a huge double-standard.

And also, I find your docking of GOE because of "too many tanos" rather petty.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Woah, this thread sure took a way different direction than I thought it would.
This is a discussion board after all, and now somebody put a lot of time and work into starting a possible discussion. There is nothing disrespectful in there and other opinions are welcomed - exactly what this board is for, and a far cry from 'fanfiction net'. So in contrary to most posters so far, I enjoy this thread and think it's very interesting. Thanks for doing all this work and posting it here Daniel!

The main thing I'd also disagree with is being this lenient on Satoko compared to the other girls. I'm not at home right now and not sure I'll have time tomorrow, but I'd take a closer look at the jumps in question if I'd have the time. It's interesting to see somebody else being generally a bit stricter than the judges though, given my personal feeling of a general judging inflation.

 

[Ares]

"I gave Rika about a half a point lower than the judges for skating skills, mainly due to her posture" wut ? there's a non sense here.

Yeah ... what's that got to do with anything? Moreover that posture issue I think is not because she's hunching but more due to how her shoulders are built. They're somewhat inward if that makes sense even if she's erect, her posture is much better than Radionova in fact.

 

[Daniel1998]

Here's the thing I don't get, Daniel1998. You're trying to proclaim that you're being more nitpicky and harsh regarding the jumps with edge calls/UR/<</GOE. That's fine. I'm always way more harsh than the TP inevitably is.

But you set a double-standard in your post, which is what I certainly took objection to when I first read it last night and what I think some of the others took objection to. You hammered everyone except Satoko Miyahara. If you didn't call her PR, well, fine, a lot of people aren't. But she had UR in there that you clearly haven't called, other jumping issues, and quite apart from everything else, the height and distance on her jumps is woeful, especially when you compare her directly to Medvedeva (and the judges would have been subconsciously doing that, especially because Miyahara skated right after Medvedeva). Medvedeva also skated big - she was reaching out into the stands with her performance. Miyahara's skating, in comparison, looked very small.

I just find it odd that you're setting such a huge double-standard.

And also, I find your docking of GOE because of "too many tanos" rather petty.

I was surprised that I scored Satoko so high, so I rewatched her program to see if there were any underrotations. I know prerotation is an issue but in terms of the blade, it came down perfectly backwards on nearly all of her jumps. The only suspect ones were her salchow and last 2A+3T, but to me they looked less than a quarter underrotated, so I let it go. I guess I could have called those, but I let go jumps that were more underrotated than that for other skaters. She's made more obvious underrotation errors this year than she did at that competition, and I was happy the judges called them until... they didn't.

Oh, and here are the GOE bullets:
1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry
2) clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
3) varied position in the air / delay in rotation
4) good height and distance
5) good extension on landing / creative exit
6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the musical structure

Let's take Medvedeva's flip-toe as an example. 1 is a no, 3 is a yes for the tano, 4 is a yes, 5 is debatable, since her extension is ok but the exit isn't creative, I'll give her 6, 7 is a no because she grinds the triple toe by reaching back with her free leg, and 8 is a no because the start of the next musical phrase starts right in the middle of the combination.
Frankly, I'm not sure what 2 even means, but let's give it to her anyway.
That's 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. That's a maximum of 5 even if I give her ones I'm not sure about, and I think the guideline is 6+ for a +3 GOE. That's why I'd stick to a +2 for most of her jumping passes, though there are ones that are slightly better and ones that are slightly worse. There are other people who feel differently and that's fine too.

 

[Daniel1998]

Woah, this thread sure took a way different direction than I thought it would.
This is a discussion board after all, and now somebody put a lot of time and work into starting a possible discussion. There is nothing disrespectful in there and other opinions are welcomed - exactly what this board is for, and a far cry from 'fanfiction net'. So in contrary to most posters so far, I enjoy this thread and think it's very interesting. Thanks for doing all this work and posting it here Daniel!

The main thing I'd also disagree with is being this lenient on Satoko compared to the other girls. I'm not at home right now and not sure I'll have time tomorrow, but I'd take a closer look at the jumps in question if I'd have the time. It's interesting to see somebody else being generally a bit stricter than the judges though, given my personal feeling of a general judging inflation.

Please do! For someone who's been a bit hard on Satoko this season for her underrotations, I was surprised to not have found any when I watched her worlds performance back.