Flutz vs Lutz, Causal fans vs. Die hards, a dying sport?

[bekalc]

The thing is that I don't think penalizing a flutz is going to hurt skating all that bad. Skaters will know the rule changes, and I think what will happen is that less skaters will be working harder at perfecting their lutz before they try it on the ice...

It will make the lutz more rare, and special when its done...And yes reward female skaters who are capable of doing the lutz.

 

[Kasey]

After reading a couple of diehards' response, I believe you guys still don't get it.You guys are continuing to be obsessed with whatever pet peeves you have. In my opinion, flutz is already properly punished. You get a -1 in GOE if you flutz, if you do a proper lutz, you get a +1, +2 in GOE, that's a big difference.

No, you DON'T always get a -1 GOE for a flutz. GOE for a jump includes multiple things, with jump takeoff only being part of it. It isn't only Mao who receives +GOE on her flutz. But the fact of the matter is, if you flutz, you are NOT DOING THE INTENDED JUMP. It's like a football team with fourth and goal who gets the ball to the 1-inch line and it's called a touchdown. You are not completing the requirement of that particular part of your sport.

My point is some of you diehards are so obsessed with these 'trivial' things which are completely unconvincing to general public. The baseketball analogy is also laughable. The truth is the line between a proper edge and improper edge is so blurred. It's almost impossible to 'educate' the public.

No, it's not impossible to educate the public. After a skater's performance is done and you've gone to the slow-mo, explain what a lutz is, a true lutz, with video, showing the edge. Then show slow-mo of the skater's edge, showing it dropping inward. It's not hard to pick out in slow motion, with someone walking you through it and explaining it. I agree with others who say, it's not the "pickiness" of certain fans who is killing the sport. Cripes, "diehard" fans are the ones who most often will travel to competitions and put their butts in the seats. But if the sport is better explained in those occasions that it is in the air, "Casual fans" can get a better understanding of it, and perhaps even be intrigued enough to get into the scoring complexities even more.

How much more do you want to punish a so-called 'flutz'? a -3 deduction in GOE? I certainly believe anybody with common sense(causual fans) would agree a flutz is far more preferrable to a fall, a stepout, bad air position, a jump without speed etc, in other words, things that really disrupt the flow of a program.
If a stepout only gets -1 deduction, why isn't it enough for a -1 deduction in flutz?

So, only "casual fans" have any commen sense? Nice, to attack and target a whole group of people on what is, in fact, a figure skating board. Although trollish and insulting posts from you....well, whatever.

Anyway, I know it's quite futile to change a couple of elitists' attitude on a skating board. This sort of attitude is really what kills this sport.

Again, there is no attitude that will kill this sport but apathy. I would think that if people are interested in it enough to be debating such things, the sport is alive enough. Even if it is with us, oh heavy dramatic sigh, "diehard" fans. I would think the sport in general would appreciate us, since as I said earlier, we are the ones who travel to other states, and sometimes even other countries, to support the sport and the athletes who compete in it.

Oh yeah, and if technical accuracy is something to be rolling your eyes at and pooh-poohing, let's hope you never need brain surgery. Or heart surgery. Or heck, ANY kind of surgery. Your surgeon may be a flutzer, and you go in for an appendectomy and come out minus a spleen. Ooops. -1 GOE there.

 

[Mathman]

It will make the lutz more rare, and special when its done...And yes reward female skaters who are capable of doing the lutz.

That makes sense to me. Here is one definition of the Lutz jump that I found:

"Lutz: Like the flip jump, but more difficult. Rather than beginning on a backwards inside edge, the skater will begin on a backwards outside edge. This is an "against the grain" jump - the skater starts by turning clockwise on his/her outside edge, but in the air spins counter-clockwise (or vice-versa, depending on which foot the skater will land on); This jump is also easy to recognize under most circumstances because the skater will often enter the jump with an extended glide on the backwards outside edge to demonstrate to the judges that they are skating on the outside edge and not the inside edge, thus performing the more difficult Lutz jump rather than the flip jump."

To me, the part in bold is the key. The Lutz gets more points than other jumps because it is harder to do. It is harder to do because the natural curve of the outside edge entrance is in the opposite direction from the revolutions in the air.

That's why it is such a big deal (and such a crowd pleaser when it is done right, even though the typical audience member might not know exactly what it is that makes the jump look so cool.)

If you switch over to the wrong edge, even at the last moment, the curve of your entry on take-off is in the same direction as your revolutions in the air -- just like a flip. You have watered down a difficult and spectacular move and turned it into an "eh? so what" move.

 

[Wolfgang]

Iloveaxel, let me ask you - do you skate?
My guess is no, because the line between a correct edge and an incorrect one is not blurry at all.
If I get it right, it works and looks right.
If I get it wrong, I end up flat on the ice.
That's a clear line if I ever saw one.......

 

[antmanb]

I think a certain poster is trying to decry the "elitist" attitide about flutzes purely because his/her favourite skaters have flutzes. Nothing more to the posts than support of the skaters s/he loves.

I think its important for the rules to adequately penalise and reward faulty and correct (respectievly) jump technique and all technique.

I agree with the penalty for a flutz or lip of -1 to -3 GOE depending on the severity of the change of edge, but i don't see enough judges applying the correct GOE. I alo think that the flutz (or the the lip) is a sign of faulty technique that is fundamentally worse than a step out or a fall. Any person who can do a jump correctly can make an incidental mistake on that one occassion that messes the jump up resulting in a step out or fall. A flutz or a lip is a fundamental problem with the skaters technique - they could do that jump a hundred times and still take off from the wrong edge because that is the way they have learnt it and the way they are allowed to continue to do it.

At the very least i think a change of edge on the lutz or flip should result in a jump that can only attain a -GOE regardless of how good the jump was in the flight and landing part. Lets face it a change of edge affects 50% of the jump (from COPs perspective) the preparation is often affected by the wobbling edge into a wrong edged jump and the take off is also incorrect. Just because the jump is really high (or the skater has their arm over head) and lands witha smooth running edge, that shouldn't compesate for the fault.

And just because a "casual viewer" might not be able to spot the change of edge, that is no reason to ignore it. Many a casual viewer cannot tell a double from a triple, or a triple froma quad but that doesn't mean we ignore the fact a skater does a quad instead of a triple.

Ant

 

[Ravyn Rant]

It's "elitist" to want the basic elements of the sport done right? Ok, fine. Whatever.

Thank you! You took the words right out of my mouth.

 

[Tonichelle]

If you're trully a 'casual' fan... why are you posting on a message board...

I would think a lot if not all of the members are a little more than casual. Casual - to me - are teh fans that will watch skating only when they catch it on the TV and if there's nothing else on.

 

[R.D.]

One may not be a "casual" fan in terms of the occasional viewer, but I think the word "FAN" gives it away. There can be a difference between the casual VIEWER and the casual FAN.

I'd never call myself a "die-hard" because I think at that level you know the elements of skating inside and out, like a good number of folks do on this forum and on others. but that's JMHO

 

[Tonichelle]

well if that's the case then I guess I'd be considered a casual fan even though I've obsessed over the sport since I was 3...

I honestly don't think being able to call jumps should be an indicator of your 'level' of fandom...