Flutz vs Lutz, Causal fans vs. Die hards, a dying sport?

[iloveaxel]

What a great collection of reponses, well argued and well written. I have to give the gold to GKelly's post #12, but Ladskater, Bekalc, Sussweden and the one-word post of Hsuhs (one video is worth a thousand words, LOL) are also right on the mark, IMHO.

After reading a couple of diehards' response, I believe you guys still don't get it.You guys are continuing to be obsessed with whatever pet peeves you have. In my opinion, flutz is already properly punished. You get a -1 in GOE if you flutz, if you do a proper lutz, you get a +1, +2 in GOE, that's a big difference.

My point is some of you diehards are so obsessed with these 'trivial' things which are completely unconvincing to general public. The baseketball analogy is also laughable. The truth is the line between a proper edge and improper edge is so blurred. It's almost impossible to 'educate' the public.

How much more do you want to punish a so-called 'flutz'? a -3 deduction in GOE? I certainly believe anybody with common sense(causual fans) would agree a flutz is far more preferrable to a fall, a stepout, bad air position, a jump without speed etc, in other words, things that really disrupt the flow of a program.
If a stepout only gets -1 deduction, why isn't it enough for a -1 deduction in flutz?

Anyway, I know it's quite futile to change a couple of elitists' attitude on a skating board. This sort of attitude is really what kills this sport.

This is a bit off the topic. I'm sticking out my tongue here. LOL. But from my observation, many die-hard fans of figure skating are also ultra-liberal, politically speaking. Extreme leftists have a tendency to impose their own will on working men and women. I'm just kidding. Have a nice day!

 

[emma]

iloveaxel,

You know, its funny. I really love your enthusiasm, and so appreciate all of the links to great skating you so often provide, and information on skaters etc.

But, your continuous use of the terms 'diehards' and 'elitist' to describe knowledgable skating fans who are discussing the technique of figuring skating and its scoring on a board designed - in part - for such a discussion is down right insulting. It appears that you have refused to consider the words of any of the posters on this thread. It appears you would just rather us say that Caroline or Sasha or whomever is just brillant and wonderful and perfect. No one said they weren't brillant and wonderful and no one said that Caroline should NOT have placed as she did....perhaps you could try to extend to others the same courtesy they are extending you in dialoguing in good faith and not calling you, say, close minded, pig headed, rude, uniformed, stupid, etc (which I'm not calling you, just using as an example to compare with 'diehard elitist').

Anyway, just had to get that off my chest because it really bugs me when people spend a lot of time carefully explaining a point to then simply be shut down or ignored by some negative epithet.

And for my opinion, I don't think it is the responsiblity of anyone on this board to 'convince the general public' (whatever the heck that is) of anything, including what is or isn't good figure skating technique. I do think its great that we can come here and learn more about the technical demands of this sport - because you can't by simply watching tv - i've learned a ton about edges, proper jump technique, mitf etc just by reading posts on this board. And you know what, I can see a flutz now - although i confess that catching a lip is still much harder for me and I need to see it more than once in slowmo. Does that mean i think the 'flutzer' is aweful or deserves to be condemned? NO. but it is great fun for me to be able to point out technical strengths and weaknesses and tally from there. Do I think the scoring needs tweaking to better account for take off edge on jumps - yes (and for me this includes toe axels and that wierd skid some people have on 2 and 3 axel take offs); but I'm not sure which way to go with that - but enjoy reading other peoples opinion on this.

 

[bekalc]

After reading a couple of diehards' response, I believe you guys still don't get it.You guys are continuing to be obsessed with whatever pet peeves you have. In my opinion, flutz is already properly punished. You get a -1 in GOE if you flutz, if you do a proper lutz, you get a +1, +2 in GOE, that's a big difference.

My point is some of you diehards are so obsessed with these 'trivial' things which are completely unconvincing to general public. The baseketball analogy is also laughable. The truth is the line between a proper edge and improper edge is so blurred. It's almost impossible to 'educate' the public.

How much more do you want to punish a so-called 'flutz'? a -3 deduction in GOE? I certainly believe anybody with common sense(causual fans) would agree a flutz is far more preferrable to a fall, a stepout, bad air position, a jump without speed etc, in other words, things that really disrupt the flow of a program.
If a stepout only gets -1 deduction, why isn't it enough for a -1 deduction in flutz?

Anyway, I know it's quite futile to change a couple of elitists' attitude on a skating board. This sort of attitude is really what kills this sport.

This is a bit off the topic. I'm sticking out my tongue here. LOL. But from my observation, many die-hard fans of figure skating are also ultra-liberal, politically speaking. Extreme leftists have a tendency to impose their own will on working men and women. I'm just kidding. Have a nice day!

The point we were making is that the judges don't follow their own rules when it comes to flutzing. I've seen Mao get +1 GOE for her flutz.

 

[iloveaxel]

The point we were making is that the judges don't follow their own rules when it comes to flutzing. I've seen Mao get +1 GOE for her flutz.

I agree with you on this. But this hardly applies to 'flutz' alone. Many judges toss out some ridiculous GOEs to their favourite skater on some very 'normal' elements in order to boost the overall scores of that particular skater.

Look at Buttle's ridiculous GOE on every jump at 4cc. That's the game the judges were playing to pull him far ahead of the pack. They thought he should rank far ahead, but technically speaking Buttle did not really have more difficult jumps to pile up the points. To play with GOE was surely a way to do the job.

Lots of folks in that competition certainly did better 3Sal than Buttle, but did they get those ridiculous GOEs? NO.

 

[Mathman]

I will concede the point that what the audience sees and what the judges are looking for might well be different. To me, an example is "footwork into a jump entrance."

The truly accomplished skater heads into her jump with a bunch of brackets, 3-turns, rockers, rollers, Mohawks, Choctaws and Comanches. I have no idea what any of those things are, and all I see is her bottom switching back and forth looking silly.

What looks great to me is a long, continuous, sweeping, curving edge (especially on an Axel entry) -- but no, that's a deduction for "telegraphing."

Oh well.

 

[R.D.]

^ That's more of what I'm saying. I find myself not really caring about these "finer issues", mainly because I'm not one of those who knows all this stuff. But the difference between me and a "normal viewer" is that I've been around here long enough to at least be AWARE of the "nuances" to basically understand why someone didn't win, even if I can't see it myself. It's up to the TV commentators and those in the know not to keep the public in the dark, or skating is going to continue to lose viewers especially in the US. (I don't know about, and can't speak for, other locations.)

That said, even if it was easier to understand I don't think the situation would be much better. I just think it lost most of the credibility it had left after the SLC scandal. That was unfortunately, and likely, irreparable damage done.

 

[heyang]

I rank myself as more of a casual viewer that has some appreciation for the technical aspects. I find that if you watch something often enough and attempt to understand it, you start seeing the technical aspects. True a flip vs a lutz is hard to differentiate at full speed from a distance without focus on the balde. However, that rocking motion on the blade at the point of launch is a giveway indication of a flutz.

A lot of die hard fans bemoan the amount of commentary and fluff. However, the point of all of it is to educate the casual viewer on these nuances. At one time, they did explain that the jump is about the launch, in air position and landing. The landing should curve out with flow - if it doesn't, that should be -GOE - however, not -3. Still not sure what they look for during in-air, unless they are only referring to # of revolutions. As for the launch on flip/lutz, should it really be -3 GOE if they at least attained the correct edge until that split second at launch?

I would certainly downgrade the jump if they never even attained the edge. So, if the skater has already done a so-so flip and then flips their lutz, the 2nd jump doesn't get any points if it is deemed a flip, but the skater will still get a couple of points for a lutz with a -GOE?

I think it is important to reward proper technique. Otherwise, it makes skating even less of a sport to many. The trick is to educate the casual viewer to at least accept that they need to learn more.

 

[R.D.]

But does the average viewer even know what "GOE" is? Or "TES"? Or "PCS"?

But the Die-Hards may have a point. If the trend continues and the viewing audience diminishes enough, more and more of the remaining audience will likely be of the die-hard type, and they WOULD be interested in the smaller "nuances".

(ETA: when I say "Die-hards", I'm referring to not only die-hard fans but other folks who may not call themselves "die-hards" but know enough about the scoring system and about jumps and details to really "follow along".)

 

[iloveaxel]

But does the average viewer even know what "GOE" is? Or "TES"? Or "PCS"?

But the Die-Hards may have a point. If the trend continues and the viewing audience diminishes enough, more and more of the remaining audience will likely be of the die-hard type, and they WOULD be interested in the smaller "nuances".

(ETA: when I say "Die-hards", I'm referring to not only die-hard fans but other folks who may not call themselves "die-hards" but know enough about the scoring system and about jumps and details to really "follow along".)

Well, if we really go down that unfortunate path, the 'die-hards' won't even have the youtube clips to distinguish between a fluz and a lutz. All they'll get is some downloadable scoring sheets from ISU website to chew on :agree:

 

[Spun Silver]

I keep thinking about baseball. If you think skating is suffering from shop talk, try listening to a couple of jocks talking about baseball stats and history. The difference, I guess, is that far more children grow up playing baseball and internalizing all the game's rules and history than happens with skating, which is a lot less accessible and affordable for the average kid. So the specialized technical language of skating is out of reach for average folk. Same w/baseball, but baseball gibberish is widely spoken on sports pages, TV, and among fans (including little kids) so it does not have such an elitist connotation.

Unlike iloveaxel, I think the remedy is not less shop talk but more. Skating, like all sports or art forms depends in part on its technical foundation. Without that, all you have is business (ultimately strip shows on ice, since sex sells) or recreation. No more Plushenko-Yagudin forcing each other to excel, just "Sex Bomb."

I do think iloveaxel makes some good points and I enjoy her unabashed posting style. If a sport's popularity depends on an informed public, then consistency and transparency in judging are critical. The calls (of the judges as well as technical people) need to make sense or there's no point for fans to learn the lingo ... even for little kids to learn the right moves. The judges need to be called on their bad calls. Where does that happen, and if it doesn't, why not?

 

[SeaniBu]

This has been a good thread of education and discovery of the "views."

You guys are continuing to be obsessed with whatever pet peeves you have.

I am wondering who is "really obsessed" with what. ????

Sad thing is, that is what the Judges and tech spec are supposed to be there for, so we don't have to worry about it in the first place, if we choose just to sit back and enjoy. But unfortunately it is so common not to trust the judges we have to resort to questioning. Plus for those in the TV viewing world, it is so common that the camera personnel will either be cutting off the skate blade so we can't see anyway, or they wont compensate for the ticker and that will cut it off.

Then there is YouTube resolution Nothing conclusive could really come from that unless it is incredibly exaggerated.

 

[Mathman]

As for the launch on flip/lutz, should it really be -3 GOE if they at least attained the correct edge until that split second at launch?

No, that's a -1. The GOE guidelines are very clear. The judges are expected to take off "-3 to -1" for "starting wrong edge (depending on length)."

Here is the document that spells this all out (scroll down to page 4 for singles LP rules).

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-175231-192449-94938-0-file,00.pdf

Note that the judges are expected to take GOE points off for "starting wrong edge," but that if other aspects of the jump are superior, this can compensate and leave the skater with a zero or positive GOE on the element.

For other mistakes it is different. For "fall on landing," "under rotated and downgraded," "starting or landing on two feet," "stepping out of landing" and "touch down with both hands," the judges must give a total negative GOE for the element.

 

[iloveaxel]

Unlike iloveaxel, I think the remedy is not less shop talk but more. Skating, like all sports or art forms depends in part on its technical foundation. Without that, all you have is business (ultimately strip shows on ice, since sex sells) or recreation. No more Plushenko-Yagudin forcing each other to excel, just "Sex Bomb."

?

Maybe I haven't gotten my points across. I'm not objecting to some sort of penalty on flutz at all since it's a wrong technique. But what really irks me is many 'die-hards'' exaggeration of this issue. There's a very blurred line between 'fluz' and 'lutz' and even 'experts' can really agree on sometimes.

The flutz has already been properly punished, in my opinion. I certainly don't want a -2, -3 deduction as some flutz haters implied. In jumps alone, there are lots of things that are far destructive than a simple flutz. A step-out, lack of speed in-and-out of a jump etc. If a step-out only guarantees a -1 deduction, why is it such a big deal when some judges give a -1 to Caroline Zhang/Sasha Cohen and some give them a +0, a +1, considering other aspects of their 'flutz' jump?

Yes, in my opinion, the obsession with flutz is really an elitist attitude. How many skaters can do a true lutz anyway, and they routinely get +1, +2 bonus points in GOE. Why don't people question this? Does Jeffrey Buttle have a true lutz to deserve his GOE bonus? Why nobody questions the blatant abuse of the system to give him positive GOE on stuff like 3Sal in order to boost his ranking?

 

[Tinymavy15]

Well, because both of us are uneducated causual fans who can't tell flutz from lutz.

Both of us also love contortionists Sasha and Caroline. That must have pissed off lots of 'educated' diehards. LOL.

Peace.

actually i am a novice level juviinille level skater and have a very clean single and double flip and lutz. I have been competeing for four years, and really apppreciate sasha's and carloine's ability oon the ice. they are beautiful artists, and a little change of edge might be the price we have to pay for thier beauty.

 

[iloveaxel]

actually i am a novice level juviinille level skater and have a very clean single and double flip and lutz. I have been competeing for four years, and really apppreciate sasha's and carloine's ability oon the ice. they are beautiful artists, and a little change of edge might be the price we have to pay for thier beauty.

Hehe, sorry, just caught your response. But well, good luck to your skating. Even if you have a 'flutz' in the future, I won't mind giving you a +1 as a judge if other aspects of your lutz jump is great!

 

[Tinymavy15]

actually, my coach says i have a "true" lutz, better than his junior skater!!!!! lol.

 

[gio]

Bad technique is killing the sport, not certainly good technique. Call me die hard, elitist, or whatever you like, I don't care.
I prefer to watch the old programs, when skaters did maybe easier elements, but with good technique.
And I'm not a Sasha hater, just because she flutzes. I'm a GREAT SASHA FAN.
Caroline, I don't know yet, because she is still too young. My fav skaters are all in their 20s. I'll keep an eye on her and than I'll decide if to cheer for her.

 

[gio]

This is a bit off the topic. I'm sticking out my tongue here. LOL. But from my observation, many die-hard fans of figure skating are also ultra-liberal, politically speaking. Extreme leftists have a tendency to impose their own will on working men and women. I'm just kidding. Have a nice day!

Sorry for continuing the off topic, but I'm curious and a little bit confused.
What do you want to say? In school the teachers always thaught us that ultra-liberalism is laissez faire. This means a government that doesn't intervene in the market to fix it. In other words it means ultra capitalism. This position isn't the position of the leftwing parties at all. At least in Europe.

 

[Mathman]

Sorry for continuing the off topic, but I'm curious and a little bit confused.
What do you want to say? In school the teachers always thaught us that ultra-liberalism is laissez faire. This means a government that doesn't intervene in the market to fix it. In other words it means ultra capitalism. This position isn't the position of the leftwing parties at all. At least in Europe.

How interesting. These old words just don't seem to carry much meaning at all any more. A "liberal" should be a person who believes in "freedom," while a "conservative" ought to be a person who wants things to stay the same (whatever that might be).

Traditionally in the United States, "liberalism" was associated with the view that the government ought to take an active part in directing the economy and especially in funding social programs. "Conservative" values were lower taxes, fiscal accountability, and a smaller government presence in the economic arena.

But now it's a hopeless mishmash, especially with the emergence of the "neo-cons" who have turned traditional conservatism upside down.

 

[gio]

How interesting. These old words just don't seem to carry much meaning at all any more. A "liberal" should be a person who believes in "freedom," while a "conservative" ought to be a person who wants things to stay the same (whatever that might be).

Traditionally in the United States, "liberalism" was associated with the view that the government ought to take an active part in directing the economy and especially in funding social programs. "Conservative" values were lower taxes, fiscal accountability, and a smaller government presense in the economic arena.

But now it's a hopeless mishmash, especially with the emergence of the "neo-cons" who have turned traditional conservatism upside down.

Thanks for the explanation Mathman! So it means that in the USA the meanings were and are different. In Europe it was liberalism vs socialism. The first one on the right, the second on the left. But after the fall of the Berlin wall it is a mess also hier. :scratch: Especially in Italy, where we have so many parties and the government is very unstable.