Free Dance, Sat. 11/19 at 2:30 pm EST

[chuckm]

Shabalin DID make sour grapes remarks. He said V/M maybe did skate well enough for gold, but that D/W should never have been placed above himself and Domnina.

 

[dorispulaski]

Here's a translation of the interview:

http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-73964.html

: As you had to get used to the Olympic games result. I still find it hard to put into words what do I feel about your placement. I realize with the state of your legs the bronze was the best you could had hoped for. On the other hand it's not for the bronze you went to Vancouver..
MS: No, not the bronze. Hence I have mixed feelings about the medal. It was a hard thing to get. From that perspective our participating the Olympics is a huge win. But we were going for the gold. We were fighting for the gold.

V: Really?
MS: Yes. It became clear we don't have a chance after the Original Dance.

V: It is probably hard to be objective while in the middle of the competition compared to the outside glance. But let me remark: it was obvious for the outsiders that the first two places will be decided between the Canadians Virtue-Moir and the Americans Davis-White.
MS: I disagree. Oh yes, the Canadians - they are brilliant and it's obvious, even though am not overwhelmed by their programmes. If Oxana and I didn't have to make changes in the programmes according to my leg's state I don't think Virtue/Moir had a chance to beat us. What the Americans showed doesn't look like and ice dance to me at all. I can only see the kids who are running fast across the ice and do some acrobatics. If I were a judge at the Original I would put them outside the top 3.

Note that what he is talking about is D&W's Bollywood OD.

vs his & Oksana's so ice dance Aborigine OD. Here's the Euros version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vczTPSwF9do&feature=related

Here's the GPF version of D&W's Bollywood.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zx8vm9m8EDc

(Olympic videos vanish off youtube)

I can tell which OD I think looks more like a dance.

 

[gmyers]

Inmans email was effective. Two judges gave Plushenko fives in transitions! Only people in the first group got that. Kevin Van Der Perren didn't get any fives. Weir got no fives when he got a three from inman at us nationals. The inman email was one of the more effective politics against any skater at an olympics of all time! The people had stopped judging what was on the ice and just went by inman's email.

 

[gmyers]

DW OD was Bollywood movie dance I am not sure about real traditional Indian dance and I beleive there is a difference but his comments are way more true about Davis and White free dance which was not dance at all in any way.

 

[Buttercup]

Here's a translation of the interview:

http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-73964.html

(Olympic videos vanish off youtube)

I can tell which OD I think looks more like a dance.

This was an interview from June 2010, and I was referring to comments attributed to him at the Olympics, and which where taken out of context. I don't recall Shabalin making any actual unsportsmanlike comments at the Olympics. And he was not the only one whose comments were misrepresented at the time; Massimo Scali also ran into, shall we say, an overzealous reporter, in the mixed zone after the FD. As for the interview itself - Russian interviews are always interesting! Not canned answers there... obviously DomShabs were greatly handicapped by his injury, though I'm sure V/M didn't have an easy time of it health-wise, either. I do kind of wonder what DomShabs' programs would have been like had his knee been in better shape; would they really have done such a ridiculous OD? As for his thoughts about D/W - I can't say I haven't expressed similar opinions at times, though obviously my status is rather different than his. I'm not sure how I feel about it; not everyone's obliged to appreciate D/W, and in addition, he was retired by then; I don't have as big an issue with critical comments when skaters aren't going head to head anymore. That having been said, he probably should have toned it down. BTW, going into the Olympics, there were quite a few comments from several of the men about how they were being underscored, their opponents overscored, their opponents had mediocre programs, the judges had it in for them etc., but I don't recall anything like that in the other disciplines.

Since this is a post-season and post-retirement interview, it doesn't change my opinion about the media coverage of DomShabs at and immediately after the Olympics. Plushenko and the Inman e-mail are fast approaching dead horse status - if they're not there already - so I won't go there.

BTW, you can view the the entire dance event - all three segments - on Youtube via the Vancouver Olympics official channel (here's the figure skating playlist, and the direct link to the OD). This channel also has the complete men's event (I refuse to watch that, too traumatizing), the pairs and the gala. Personally, my favorite ODs that season were V/M's and F/S's.

 

[Tonichelle]

DW OD was Bollywood movie dance I am not sure about real traditional Indian dance and I beleive there is a difference but his comments are way more true about Davis and White free dance which was not dance at all in any way.

and yet it was a big hit in India...


NBC is sooooooooooooo biased against the Russians... in 1994 (for CBS) it was the former East Germans... US Media, when it comes to the olympics, is always extremely pro US (makes sense) and in skating's case is always anti-Russia... they all pretty much peed themselves with glee when Russia failed to make the podium in Pairs... I don't think commentators like Besic or Hamilton truly believe in the whole "cold war" mentality, but they want to keep their jobs so they say what they're told... Scott said as much in his book referring to the 1994 olympics. Not the best character trait, but when it's all you've got I can see why you would do just enough to keep the bosses happy... I guess.

 

[gmyers]

Their OD was a big hit in India - it was very reflective of the movie culture and they took it as a compliment!!

Jan Hoffman is very respected but was bashed as another East German stealing Kerrigan's gold.

Bezic and Hamilton did not have any use for B/S or T/M. They just loved the Canadians and the Chinese. NBC was just as into S/Z in 2006 as 2010. S/Z got the stories and maybe because S/Z made efforts to`Americanize their choreo.

 

[dorispulaski]

Re effectiveness of Inman email:
Plushenko certainly fell into Inman's narrative by saying of course he had no transitions, though. Hard to argue with the horse's mouth himself.


Re US commentating:
OTOH, Dick Button totally adored B&S. And G&G. And for that matter G&P. Ans Shen & Zhao...If some team or skater was having a great performance, Dick was over the moon happy, regardless of country. More over the moon if it were a US skater, but still he wasn't hating on great performances.

IN fact, that's why with all his verbal gaffes, I still like Dick as a commentator a lot better than Scotty. He has his biases (like for a particular position in the layback versus other positions) but he is not as US-centric as Scotty. Or perhaps NBC is more US-centric today than ABC was in 1988, for example? I'm in no position to know.

Re: Bollywood
Yes, taking a representation of your culture as a compliment is such a bad thing At least its a better response than completely angering the people you are trying to represent. Who knows? Maybe some Indian kids will take up ice dance now? You never know.

 

[Tonichelle]

Re US commentating:
OTOH, Dick Button totally adored B&S. And G&G. And for that matter G&P. Ans Shen & Zhao...If some team or skater was having a great performance, Dick was over the moon happy, regardless of country. More over the moon if it were a US skater, but still he wasn't hating on great performances.

IN fact, that's why with all his verbal gaffes, I still like Dick as a commentator a lot better than Scotty. He has his biases (like for a particular position in the layback versus other positions) but he is not as US-centric as Scotty. Or perhaps NBC is more US-centric today than ABC was in 1988, for example? I'm in no position to know.

IIRC Dick was more US centric when on NBC than he was ABC... ABC pushed the US team, but wouldn't deny the other countries their praise... NBC definitely does that. I think of the three big networks that have had the Olympics/Worlds/Figure Skating since I've been around NBC is the most "digusting" in how they push the agenda... CBS comes second, ABC third... Terry Gannon, though, doesn't seem to play by that rule, so we may see a little less anti-everybody else from here on out, I don't know.

 

[gmyers]

Re effectiveness of Inman email:
Plushenko certainly fell into Inman's narrative by saying of course he had no transitions, though. Hard to argue with the horse's mouth himself.

.

But that was not reflective of what hapened at the Olympics. The fives came from the email- not what was done in the SP.

 

[Tonichelle]

But that was not reflective of what hapened at the Olympics. The fives came from the email- not what was done in the SP.

*shrugs* if he doesn't have transitions worthy of higher, he doesn't have transitions worthy of higher... whether or not an email happened is moot


or some such theory. Isn't that how the whole pairs scandal was justified by the side that originally won out? B/S were superior anyway, so what difference did a little politiking and money exchange really make?

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

1. I have to admit, Buttercup, while I understand you wanting to balance the scales in terms politicking accusations and I know you've had some frustrations with the direction dance is headed, I'd argue that what Anissina does is exactly what you've opposed on the boards previously. I've always felt bad for Massimo Scali for how his comments were first mistranslated and then futher decontextualized.

2. Here's the thing, though - I am a fan of Domnina/Shabalin. Not the Domnina/Shabalin that won bronze at the Olympics, or gold in LA. This Domnina/Shabalin. Hell, I'm a fan of Bobrova/Soloviev too. But to clarify one thing: Delobel/Schoenfelder used a scarf/belt in a lift during their Worlds OD in 2008 - so the exemption had a precedent. As awful as that dance was, I think Linichuk knew what she was doing. She had to do something (A) different enough such that there wouldn't be any reasonable standard of comparison and (b) distract attention away from his injuries. That dance accomplished that perfectly.

3. It was always going to be difficult for the Shibs and W/P to defend their positions. W/P got 5th by 0.09 points. Shibs got 3rd by 0.25 points. Those narrow margins mean that a different panel (and if we're honest, we'll point out the panel at Worlds would've favoured the Americans over the Russians/French) could have reversed those results. But I think wally has it right - three groups of two battling with each other for the top six, with a couple outside teams honing in on the bottom third.

 

[dorispulaski]

However, in the folk OD of the 2007/2008 season, props and hats were explicitly permitted in the rules. That has never been true at any other part of a competition. Several teams tried them. D&W had a hat and a yellow handkerchief at SA, V&M had a scarf at the summer monitoring session, B&A had a hat. However, if you dropped the prop, there was a penalty, and there was no positive scoring for a really good prop. Most teams quit using them before Worlds. DelSchoes kept their ribbons.

B&A with a hat, swapping it back and forth (it got more action at SA than at CoC, but SA is not on youtube.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyJm_KHFQjQ

D&W ditched the hat and handkerchief after SA. SA 2007 is on IN still, which is why it is not on youtube.

 

[Buttercup]

1. I have to admit, Buttercup, while I understand you wanting to balance the scales in terms politicking accusations and I know you've had some frustrations with the direction dance is headed, I'd argue that what Anissina does is exactly what you've opposed on the boards previously. I've always felt bad for Massimo Scali for how his comments were first mistranslated and then futher decontextualized.

I just find Anissina kind of meaningless in the scheme of things; a great skater in the past, a worthy champion, but she has no real role in skating today. Why shouldn't she say whatever she wants? And she was not talking about conspiracies and such, just about what the scoring system is rewarding. I see it sort of like Elvis Stojko's comments over the years. Or Olivier Schoenfelder talking about how good the Canton teams are (which I believe he has), or the Janet Lynn piece currently being discussed in The Edge. They're done skating, let them speak their mind. Now if it were someone actively involved in skating, such a judge or an official... well, that would deserve condemnation.

So in my mind, I'm very consistent. YMMV.

As awful as that dance was, I think Linichuk knew what she was doing. She had to do something (A) different enough such that there wouldn't be any reasonable standard of comparison and (b) distract attention away from his injuries. That dance accomplished that perfectly.

Now that is an interesting point. Could it have been accomplished with a less controversial dance, or was that also calculated? Did Linichuk underestimate how badly it would be received in some contexts?

To add to Doris's list of 2008 props, P/B used a fan for the OD and their costumes as props in the FD, but not for lifts.

I promised that I would not discuss the Inman mail, but I would just like to point out that AFAIK Plushenko's comments were reported as such only in one place (Absolute Skating) and came from a press event for an ice show. What exactly was said and the context has never been clarified. I know some people have suggested that he was referring to transitions into the harder jumps, and I think that's a fair point to make, that you can do more transitions if you're only doing triples. Unless Titanilla Bőd explains what exactly was said, I'm not sure it'll ever be clear that Plushenko really meant what Inman suggested he meant.

And neither of them should have dragged Joubert into it, but Joubert did himself in at Vancouver, so it doesn't matter anymore.

 

[gmyers]

It will just always be true that Inman said judge Plushenko on his statement and not what is done on the ice in Vancouver.

 

[dorispulaski]

It is also true that Plushenko did not do very many transitions to speak of in Vancouver; that was on the ice.

As awful as that dance was, I think Linichuk knew what she was doing. She had to do something (A) different enough such that there wouldn't be any reasonable standard of comparison and (b) distract attention away from his injuries. That dance accomplished that perfectly.

Now that is an interesting point. Could it have been accomplished with a less controversial dance, or was that also calculated? Did Linichuk underestimate how badly it would be received in some contexts?

I have wondered why Linichuk went on with it, and thought perhaps she is one of those who feels any press coverage is a good thing? I think IP is right that the choreographic structure both of Aborigines & Veronique was so that you wouldn't notice that Max's knees prevented a good leg line from happening, and limited the variety of what skills they could do.

Innovation has generally played well in ice dance. And better there should be something to talk about other than Maxim's physical difficulties. I think that is what she thought.

But I think she underestimated how fast news travels these days, even about fan stuff in figure skating.

If she had unveiled Aborigines in Vancouver, rather than at Russian Nationals and Euros, the whirlwind would have happened after the medal (whatever color) was safely awarded to DomShabs. And then it would have not been news after a week. Even if she skipped Euros, there would have been less international attention to Aborigines. Linichuk has lived for years in the US, and the Astin rink has several Canadians on staff, for that matter. It's difficult for me to believe she didn't know what would happen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IceWorks_Skating_Complex

IceWorks is one of the only public rinks in the United States or Canada that has a professional coaching staff. Jim Watson, former Philadelphia Flyer, leads the hockey staff along with the rink's General Manager Stephane Charbonneau. Uschi Keszler, coach of Olympic skater Elvis Stojko, leads a Figure Skating staff of 18 full-time coaches. Public skating is also offered for people of all ages.

Why didn't she toddle into Uschi Keszler's office and ask, "how do you think these costumes and this dance will play in Vancouver?" Or ask Tanith Belbin?

By Euros, it was really too late to change the dance, beyond removing the section of music that was written by the British composer and replace it with other similar noises, clicks and hums.

I think she thought to play the outrage that she had to know was coming, but I think she underestimated the size& timing of the response, perhaps due to not gauging correctly the interconnectedness of the world.

I wonder whether Linichuk thought that what was said and done and broadcast in Russia, stayed in Russia, safely hidden behind the complexities of the Cyrillic alphabet and the Russian language? However, between Google translate, babelfish, and rutube (not to mention Russian posters on youtube) the rest of the world catches up very quickly these days. I think she did not expect that one of the people avidly watching Russian nationals on streaming video was an Australian ice dance judge, who forwarded a link to several friends in Australia, saying something like, "Get a load of this piece of dreck," and that one of those had close connections with aboriginal Australian people.

This was less surprising if you were part of the ice dance on line community, since if you paid attention to lower ranked teams, you knew that Gregory & Merriman of Australia had presented an Aboriginal People OD in the 2007/2008 season, and there was a fluff piece of how they worked with local groups over the course of a year to make sure that what they were doing was both authentic, and that the drawings on their costumes were approved.

Consquently, in skating fan circles, there was already a hue and cry almost immediately after Russian Nationals, so that the press was alerted by Euros.

I think she expected no one would hear about the program till Euros, and that there would not be anything very organized internationally by the time of Olympics.

Instead, the aboriginal people were upset and wrote to the Australiam newspaper (not to mention that they were fans of Gregory & Merriman, since they had worked with them, and felt DomShabs were stealing G&M's stuff. Perhaps, they did not think that the huge difference in skill between DomShabs and G&M justified borrowing of material.)

It's a world that is getting ever smaller.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

I just find Anissina kind of meaningless in the scheme of things; a great skater in the past, a worthy champion, but she has no real role in skating today. Why shouldn't she say whatever she wants? And she was not talking about conspiracies and such, just about what the scoring system is rewarding. I see it sort of like Elvis Stojko's comments over the years. Or Olivier Schoenfelder talking about how good the Canton teams are (which I believe he has), or the Janet Lynn piece currently being discussed in The Edge. They're done skating, let them speak their mind. Now if it were someone actively involved in skating, such a judge or an official... well, that would deserve condemnation.

So in my mind, I'm very consistent. YMMV.

Of course, anyone should say what he/she wants. I'd argue, however, that since you've been bugged by anonymous message board posters about assuming all European countries are alike, presumably the same annoyance should be directed at a skater (who, it must be said, has been to both Canada and the United States) for grouping them together and transforming what they do on the ice into an perjorative statement.

Now that is an interesting point. Could it have been accomplished with a less controversial dance, or was that also calculated? Did Linichuk underestimate how badly it would be received in some contexts?

Truthfully, I think she underestimated. Ignoring the simple fact that blackface (aka, how they debuted at Euros) has a VERY bad conotation in Canada and the USA - perhaps not understanding just how poorly the Aboriginals of Australia live (compared to Canada and the USA, there is a lower standard of living and higher discrimination), perhaps just not caring (any publicity = good publicity), perhaps not understanding COP (it's not like she gave anyone else she had in her stable good programs either).

The Inman email is fascinating, because I think both conditions are true.

a) The judges responded to the email by marking Plushenko down on transitions
b) Plushenko himself said (assumed to have said) that he had no transitions anyway, and you can't really argue he deserved higher. The higher transition scores were clearly reputation bonus points, which you get when you're a co-favourite/dominant skater, etc. Heck, in Torino, Plushenko had the HIGHEST transition scores, which were clearly bogus (higher than Matt Savoie? Shawn Sawyer?) but it didn't alter the outcome one jot anyway.

Didn't realize about the prop thing in the OD. My bad, but I'd argue that it set the precedent anyway.