Free Dance, Sat. 11/19 at 2:30 pm EST

[dorispulaski]

ITA, I liked it much better yesterday.

 

[missysays]

Walk Like an Egyptian Mummy is not the most creative thing on earth. For one thing, P&B did it for several seasons as an exhibition.

For another thing, all those Egyptian hands are too too 70's disco/ The Bangles. However, I'm fine with that. All in good fun.

P&B's creativity, over the years, has mostly expressed itself in couture/costuming rather than skating, IMO...

I don't think their Egyptian program is anything like the Bangles' "Walk Like an Egyptian." Some of the lifts and shapes in the program are really beautiful and evocative- makes me think more of an Egyptian desert landscape more than it does an 80s pop song. While P/B aren't my favorite team in the ice dance arena, I think they've been pretty ambitious in their FD concepts, Cinderella/Time, Circus, Organ Donor/Crazy FD... not just the costumes- though those have been original (some working better than others).

But comparing teams isn't really what my point was. My point was that in the current judging there's no specific advantage given to conceptual originality- which I actually think is something that limits and discourages true artistic range and growth for the athletes in ice dance today. Even the example of D/W who had an amazing OD to Indian music (that was one of the more original OD's that season) didn't get marked ahead of V/M's more traditional flamenco OD concept that we've seen before- (which P/B actually did the first time folk was called as an OD a couple of years before that Olympic season).

 

[dorispulaski]

Clowns, like Chaplin, was a very, very charming program, but we have had lots of Chaplins (Barber and Slater in 1984 had the best one!! and in pairs, Berezhnyah & Sikuradlidze had a wonderful Chaplin program) and lots of Clowns (Chait and Sakhonovsky had the strangest one). There was a while that it seemed every new Russian team in pairs & dance had to have a clown program at least once. P&B's Clowns was one of the best clown programs, though..

I saw the Organ Donor/Crazy FD live and the motion and beat reminded me way too much of their previous Four Seasons FD, but with trick costumes. I think they were trying to be original with it.

I do think that originality is not rewarded in any scoring. It is after all, a sports event at heart. While I love watching an orginal program myself, I can understand why the scoring is geared to rewarding that only peripherally.

I agree that originality of movement should be rewarded however. And even it isn't.


However, their program did remind me of this one to Walk Like an Egyptian by Rosalyn Summers in 1988

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znfsfcILf5U

 

[Buttercup]

. Even the example of D/W who had an amazing OD to Indian music (that was one of the more original OD's that season) didn't get marked ahead of V/M's more traditional flamenco OD concept that we've seen before- (which P/B actually did the first time folk was called as an OD a couple of years before that Olympic season).

I'd just like to point out that D/W were not the first team to do an Indian folk dance; Blanc/Bouquet's OD in 2007-8 was a rather different take on the concept. Flamencos aren't exactly groundbreaking (A/P beat P/B to it, for instance) but V/M did have a great one.

 

[dorispulaski]

All true.

B&B's number was to authentic music (Shantala, I think?) , but they sort of missed it on the type of movement that was required.

For that matter U&Z did a great Indian dance in 1988

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qho2DLoqbZk

and T&D did one in 1984, although not to anything like authentic music (Song of India).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zcOyzAqHeA

And I didn't claim V&M's Flamenco was original. For that matter, I really, really liked A&P's Flamenco.

 

[mot]

Back from Paris yesterday, and Ice dance was the highlight of my three days there. I cannot say anything technically unfortunately, but top three gave us very exciting and wonderful performances and I (and the rest of the audience) truly appreciated it.

I thought both Nathalie & Fabian's and Tessa & Scotts' programmes were very much work in progress though. It's understandable at this time of the season. Both couples skated rather carefully and somewhat tentatively, with some minor hiccups here and there. However, it was their experiences and abilities that still gave very satisfying performances to the crowd. So different in style, and as I personally have no means to tell difference in technical abilities in them, both of them were highlights of the event for me. And of course Anna & Luca too! How so charming they were. It was great see them looking polished and confident on ice after the difficult few seasons.

The only problem I had with Funny Face was that I just could not help singing along! I was lucky that I managed to move to a seat with no one sitting next to me so that I could sing along to my heart's content (though in a very very small voice).

I wished Elena & Nikita utilised the greater area of the ice surface. (Should it be attributed to the choreographer? I felt the same with their SD too though, especially pattern dance elements.) They were entertaining to watch and I could see where their charm lies. They were not as polished, smooth and do not draw you in as the top three couples, but it's their youth, I believe. A very exciting couple with bright future indeed.

 

[dorispulaski]

Poor utilization of the ice surface is the fault either of the choreographer or the fact that the skaters did not skate their program with the speed the choreographer. In their case, I think the choreographer, since I have heard that they have very good speed.

mot, it's great to see you posting again. .

 

[mot]

Thanks, Doris. It's good to be back! I have become incredibly busy and could not spend much time with figure skating apart from watching the competitions. But I thought I could contribute a bit as I went to TEB and saw all performances live. I am going to the European Championships too, so I will post my thoughts too.

(And TBTH, I got a bit tired of reading endless discussions, verging on arguments sometime, on who's better than who and who were robbed and who were propped up. To my layperson's eyes, all are wonderful in their own ways, and it is not for me to decide who should have won and who should not. My job as a spectator is just to be entertained and marvelled, and to cheer all skaters, who put in an unbelievable amount of time and effort - blood and tears - into what they do. )

 

[seniorita]

Unless a major change of plan, i m going to Euros too:yay:

 

[mot]

seniorita, I shall wholeheartedly welcome you in England! Hope nothing would change your plan.

 

[wallylutz]

Some quick comments since from what I read here, Doris has done a very respectable job of covering this event so I will not repeat what she already stated more eloquently than I could.

- V/M has really improved the expression of their SD, it was miles better than the one at Skate Canada. I am getting this impression they will dominate the Latin theme over any of their competitors by quite a bit, including D/W who seems to have some issue with the expression of their SD

- However, V/M struggled a little in their FD, I didn't see much of an improvement per say

- Ice Dance propaganda / positioning really is heating up, borderline trash talk are all over the place. The French are doing it, so are the Russians and Americans - it seems as though everyone is trying to juggle for position

- My feeler is that it would be a uphill battle for the Shibutani to remain in the top 6 at Worlds this year and despite W/P having solid materials this year, it is doubtful that they can do better than 5th at World this year. Some people, including Marina Anissina (batting for mother Russia, not France), is trying to create this us. against them mentality. Unfortunately, many people bite and fell for this. From my perspective, this is a trap but the result is in many people's mind, this could make the environment somewhat poisonous for USA and Canada #2 teams while Russia, France and Italy #1 teams will likely be pushed / aided in this environment

- I am convinced the issue with V/M's FD is not whether the program is original or not, it is pretty clear after the Paris GP that as a program, it is well received. But there are some issues with the linking movements involving non-traditional Ice Dance moves such as tap dancing, making it hard to score favor with judges. Transition/Linking Movements will likely be the differentiating factor between them and D/W as far as the PCS are concerned and with D/W doing a Waltz, this advantage will have to go to the Americans

- By no means a prediction at this point, I am beginning to have a clearer picture of how the showdown will look like in Nice 2012. #1 and #2 should still be between V/M and D/W with the former having a clear edge in the SD but the question is whether the lead will be big enough to knock off the latter team, almost like a repeat of 2011 Worlds. #3 will likely be a battle between Russia and France. Both S/S and W/P should consider themselves lucky if they can hold off the Italians this year, not because C/L have improved that much but because F/S have retired.

 

[Spun Silver]

^ From the third bullet on down, this is so depressingly political.

 

[CARA]

So it wasn't enough for Anissina to be an unfair medal recipient at Olys, she has to screw up current North American ice dancers.

 

[Spun Silver]

Actually the 5th bullet about V/M's tap-dance moves is interesting. That was brought up earlier in this thread. Are you saying it's the non-traditional aspect that is problematic or that some of their moves are more like tap-dancing than skating?

(Yeah: Go, Shibs! Boo, Anissina!)

 

[dorispulaski]

Tap dance moves fall into transitions; they are not part of any of the elements. The question is, do they score well as transitions, given that they are non skating transitions? I suspect they get treated as maybe a slight plus in the choreo & interp mark, but get no credit from the judges as a transition. (since the PCS components are undifferentiated, it is hard to know exactly what the judges were thinking.)

Here's the guidelines for the Transitions component

Transitions/Linking Footwork /Movements

Definition:
The varied and or intricate footwork, positions, movements and holds that link all elements and constitute the
distinct technical content of the dance;
Criteria:
• Variety
• Difficulty
• Intricacy
• Quality
• Balance of workload between partners
• Variety of holds (not excessive side by side and hand in hand)

And the SD may have a whole raft of surprises for us. What I saw on TV at TEB was that V&M did not get level 4 on their two sections of the rhumba (and they got one level 4 and one level 3 at SC), but C&L did, and P&B got level 4 on one section. At SA, no one got level 4, including D&W. I expect politicking to coalesce around those points. However, callers differ vastly in strictness, particularly in these pattern dance calls.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

It is worth mentioning that one of the B. Eurosport guys noted that they wouldn't get level fours on the pattern dance due to errors on the twelvth step in each pattern

 

[KKonas]

Anissina has no pull with the Russian Fed since she "defected" to France to win Olympic gold, however, she is a personality in the tabloids now that she is back living in Russia and could affect general audience reaction against American skaters in general - back to the old "cold war" type of thinking. Of course the Russian Fed will do all they can to push Bobrova & Soloviev, so we will see what happens at Cup of Russia this week.

 

[Buttercup]

Anissina has no pull with the Russian Fed since she "defected" to France to win Olympic gold, however, she is a personality in the tabloids now that she is back living in Russia and could affect general audience reaction against American skaters in general - back to the old "cold war" type of thinking. Of course the Russian Fed will do all they can to push Bobrova & Soloviev, so we will see what happens at Cup of Russia this week.

Anyone who followed reports in the North American media around the time of the Vancouver Olympics would have seen the exact same thing. I won't rehash the Inman e-mail mess, but the criticism of Plushenko before and after the event was way over the top, and some of the stuff about DomShabs was far uglier than their OD costumes.

The Russian Fed will do what they can to push B/S because that's their current no. 1 dance team. Just as Skate Canada will push V/M, and USFSA will push D/W, and the FFSG will push P/B. We'll see who skates best - and who politics best - in a couple of years.

I have a ton of respect for P/B because they're a team who really had to work their way up the rankings from a fairly low starting point, and improved steadily both as technicians and as performers. Not a lot of teams have the patience and the commitment to keep at it, and not a lot of federations are willing to support such a process these days. I find that to be a wonderful example to younger teams.

 

[dorispulaski]

ITA, that P&B are a wonderful example to other teams. And I agree that all federations politick, either more or less effectively for their top teams. In the case of USFS, the politicking of Igor Shpilband is about 50x more effective than the politicking of USFS, who have never given a rusty hoot about ice dance, and have generally been very ineffective. Igor, OTOH, has demonstrated effectiveness.

The Inman email is one example of the ineffectiveness of USFS connected people-one does not put one's eville intentions in an email for all the world to see, if one is to be effective.

I don't get what you thought was particularly ugly about the DomShabs's situation that they didn't bring on themselves. They got a sideways exemption for using props that was legal, but rather repugnant. They skated an excellent Tango Romantica (amazing, considering the state of Maxim's knees). They skated a weak FD. And their OD was so wrong in so many ways that it is difficult to count them, although it was clear that some fans of theirs did not understand at all why many people found it objectionable.

However, it is possible to demonstrate that it was indeed objectionable to some non-fan people, because the British composer of Indian ethnicity who wrote a section of the music they used at Euros was so offended she refused to give them permission to use the music again (and of course, they had never asked her in the first place). That composer was not from North America, and I don't think anyone in the UK thought the Kerrs had a shot for a medal, so I think she qualifies as an uninvoved observer. And the Australian people that the team said the dance was representative of at Europeans registered their unhappiness as well. A great deal of patching had to be done to replace the music, but the DomShabs should have asked the composer first, and they should have consulted an expert in Australian dances if they wanted to be controversy free.

Granted, a number of American fans thought B&A should have gotten the bronze, but preference for your own team is business as usual, and not particularly ugly, IMO, although some of the ways people express this can be ugly.

Please explain?

 

[Buttercup]

I agree that all federations politick, either more or less effectively for their top teams. In the case of USFS, the politicking of Igor Shpilband is about 50x more effective than the politicking of USFS, who have never given a rusty hoot about ice dance, and have generally been very ineffective. Igor, OTOH, has demonstrated effectiveness.

The Inman email is one example of the ineffectiveness of USFS connected people-one does not put one's eville intentions in an email for all the world to see, if one is to be effective.

I suspect all this is true, especially the part about Igor. But I must say, the Inman e-mail proved to be highly effective.

I don't get what you thought was particularly ugly about the DomShabs's situation that they didn't bring on themselves. They got a sideways exemption for using props that was legal, but rather repugnant. They skated an excellent Tango Romantica (amazing, considering the state of Maxim's knees). They skated a weak FD. And their OD was so wrong in so many ways that it is difficult to count them, although it was clear that some fans of theirs did not understand at all why many people found it objectionable.

Well, one example that comes to mind is an American skating journalist who basically wrote that their lead after the CD was evidence of a conspiracy against the NA teams, something that observers couldn't understand, and generally a terrible thing. That was pretty out of line, IMO. I'm fine with criticism of their OD and of course the costumes, but some of it was very over the top, with unpleasant insinuations about the DomShabs on a personal level. Shabalin's post-event comments were taken out of context in some places, to make it appear as though he'd been showing poor sportsmanship. That sort of thing. I'm not a fan of DomShabs (though I am ever grateful to them for introducing me to the Double Life of Veronique score) so I didn't keep close track of what appeared where, but I felt that some journalists cast them in the role of the Evil Russians, and no matter what one thinks of their skating and programs, that was unfair.

As for the OD, I'll never understand why someone as savvy as Linichuk sabotaged her team in such a way. But treading more carefully, I feel that there is probably greater sensitivity to such displays in some cultures, and I can understand how some people might have found the controversy confusing.