Fumie Suguri | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Fumie Suguri

Mathman said:
"dense" I guess I meant that you have to listen really hard to all the instuments sawing away in order to pick out the tune. And even then you won't go away whistling it. Lyra Angelica


Thanks for the clarification.

It just seemed to me that putting two completely different works together, like the piano concerto and the symphony, must necessarily involve more cutting and pasting than working with a single piece. Now that I think of it, though, Lori almost always works material from other sources into her main selection.

I agree about the cutting and pasting. BTW, do you prefer concerto #23 for the entire program or a combination of symphony #40, and piano concerto #23?

Actually, I think the densest piece of music Lori used so far was T&I for S&P's 00 - 01 free program.

To me, dense means that a composer/writer uses lengthy paragraphs to make one point. Dostoevsky's hypergraphia is legendary, but he had an excuse/ reason, hypergraphia and micrographia could be consistent with Temporal Lobe Epilepsy. A composer like Wagner moved in lengthy paragraphs too. I get a few pearls of listening pleasure after 4 - 5 hours of listening.

PS Hope I did not offend any Wagner or Dostoevsky fans. :)
 
Last edited:
Wagner and Dostoevsky affect me in similar ways, too. To me, they are both masters of suspenseful art. When you are reading/listening (The Brothers Karamozov is a good example), every paragraph just seizes you and makes you think that something incredibly profound has just happened, or is just about to happen, or indeed, is happening before your very eyes. Yet, when you set the work down, it's like, let's see now, remind me again about what I was supposed to have gotten out of that?

In the U.S., would you say that Southern authors like William Faulkner and William Styron are somewhat like that?

I am sure you know that Lori's Tristan and Isolde for Sale and Pelletier was the Franz Waxman T & I Piano Fantasy, as featured in the movie Humoresque. Would you say that it sticks pretty close to Wagner?

Mathman
 
Mathman said:
I am sure you know that Lori's Tristan and Isolde for Sale and Pelletier was the Franz Waxman T & I Piano Fantasy, as featured in the movie Humoresque. Would you say that it sticks pretty close to Wagner?

Sorry, I am sure I don't know Lori's T&I was Waxman piano Fantasy.

I do not enjoy reading/listening composers with hypergraphia. Mozart's music is not dense. There is always a perfect balance of anticipating his musical theme to move forward, but wanting the notes and phrases to linger for more listening pleasure. You detect the mood changes (often multiple times within a phrase) K488 lasts than < 30 minutes, and Wagner took > time to develop an E minor chord for his Rhine Maidens opening scene (exaggeration) :)
 
Last edited:
skatingfan5 said:
Was this a competitive program or an exhibition? If the former, then it likely was her "Jupiter, Bringer of Jollity" program -- I saw her skate it at 2001 Worlds and thought it was a wonderful program for her. The Holst music was used for "I Vow To Thee, My Country."

Hi skatingfan5 (btw thank you for identifying the exact music used & name of the program), :)

Yes, it was a competitive program........have it on tape somewhere........recalled to memory b/c it affected me that much, even though I haven't watched it in at least a year. But that's the way it is for me, when a program touches me like that, no matter whom the skater. Prefer to keep that first viewing fresh in my memory - pure & untouched - b/c I find subsequent viewing sometimes can take away that special moment, especially after reading critical or negative remarks later on the boards. Too much analysis for me ~ just appreciate the beauty & how it has moved you (speaking in general here btw).

***Note: now I know why Robin Cousins has never watched a tape of his winning 1980 Olympic Performance ~ said something to the effect that he prefers to hold that magical night forever in his mind's eye & the emotions that only he, himself, experienced that night ~ and watching a tape of it would somehow tarnish it for him.***

Back on topic, I recall the second half of Fumie's aforementioned program more than the first.....b/c the "I Vow To Thee, My Country" part didn't quite begin until around the middle......where after executing a gorgeous 3Z/2T at the very end of the rink (btw commentators raved about it) she immediately moved into a beautiful 180-degree split spiral (btw lol at my previous wording of 360-degree :D ) at the very crescendo of "I Vow To Thee, My Country", which literally traversed the entire length of the rink (no lie). That's the very moment I can pinpoint exactly where I got choked up with the rest of the crowd, which was was so silent you could hear a pin drop. And then I recall her ending the program with a blinding fast combo. spin, and I think the crowd gave her a good round of applause, but not very huge b/c she had a few minor mistakes near the end. I didn't care, I was clapping & cheering my head off in my livingroom (no lie) ~ felt real happy for her.

***Note: btw IIRC Fumie was wearing a silver metallic-like costume with a star-spangled type banner/motif across her chest. And this was before she hooked up with Lori Nichol the following year, if I'm remembering correctly. Anyhow, this is the only time I have ever personally felt that this was the real Fumie, not some creation manufactured by Lori Nichol. JMHO.***

Peace & Love, Nadine

P.S. This program, in a way, reminds me of when Midori Ito apologized to her country when she didn't win the gold medal at the 1992 Olympics. As well as when Midori lit the flame at the 1998 Nagano Olympics (most touching moment, ever, in Olympic history for me along with Lu Chen's bowing to her coaches et al at the end of her 1998 Olympic FS performance). With Sarah & Michelle coming in a distant second at the 2002 Olympics while up on the podium w/their hands over their hearts.
 
I think the discussion is more on Mozart v. Puccini and Tchaikowsky. All I can say is that it is refreshing when a skater takes on another composer than the ones we hear so often. Brava Fumie! and Viva Mozart!

As for Wagner which I never thought could be skated, I was amazed at S&P. It was like they were involved in a love duet under drugs. And that's the way the composeer wanted it.

Joe
 
Joesitz said:
As for Wagner which I never thought could be skated, I was amazed at S&P. It was like they were involved in a love duet under drugs. And that's the way the composer wanted it.
Joe
LOL, Joe! I think you hit the nail.

Mathman,
I know you didn't ask me this, but you asked about Faulkner and Stryon re hypergraphia. Compared to writers such as Celine, Musil, and Delillo, to name just a few--and hey, what about many of the pulp and romance novelists!--Faulkner and Styron just seem to me like regular writers. However, it is interesting, IMO, that Styron had clinical depression. I'm not giving anything away, Styron wrote a book about it, "Darkness Visible." Now here I don't know, but I wonder if in his younger days he had bipolar disorder aka manic depression, and if his extensive writing might not have been related to the times when he might have been somewhat manic. Of course this is pure speculation on my part.

As for Faulkner, the number of novels, short stories, poetry, speeches, etc. that he did is incredibly extensive, but writers since the Greeks who were captured by "the muse" wrote a ton. Just look at Dickens. Practically died trying to finish "The Mystery of Edwin Drood." Yet there is no evidence that Dickens had anything like temporal lobe epilipsy or any other neurologic or mental problem. Dickens did, however, have a childhood of hell and an adulthood that was a near constant source of frustration and anguish. Scholars of Dickens have opined that his extraordinary output of writing was his way of excorsicing the demons of his childhood and frustrations of his adult life.

But then you have Shakespeare (assuming it was WS who was Shakespeare) who was apparently a happy family man.

I think when you look at artists from all disciplines since the Greeks, the great ones range from prolific to having produced just a few works (eg, Vermeer), from having happy healthy lives to tormented lives with chronic illness, and on and on with similar oppositions. Also, an visual artist can have a minimalist style and still be unbelievably prolific.

Anyway, I guess my point is that the way artists produce their work is as varied as people's personalities, whether it be music, writing, dance, or whatever.

Back to Fumie (trying to get back on topic), as I said before, there are many individual things I like about Fumie's skating and in interviews I find her personality is very charming. But in certain ways I agree with Nadine and Dizzy--although I disagree with Nadine that Fumie went through a period of trying to imitate Michelle. I think any similarity came from working with Lori Nichol and Fumie's natural style. Allthough as Lori and Fumie continue to work together, I see Lori choreographing programs that are more uniquely Fumie and Fumie finding her own unique style. From the blades down, I think Fumie is wonderful, perhaps best in the world. And her final scratch spin is just about the only ladies scratch spin that truly blurs. But coming from a dance background (I think it was in my DNA since I can remember being three years old and wearing out my "Tina the Ballerina" record by constantly dancing to it, lol), the dance ability makes a big difference to me as to how much I get into a skater. For example, I'll be loving Fumie's stroking--wonderful speed, edges, and flow--and then she'll do a combo spin, where I find the positions to be stiff and incomplete, and I'm out of love. And so it goes through her programs for me, love things like the stroking and her scratch spin, but there are more things that I don't love about her skating. It's not Fumie as a person, it's just my preferences re skating in general. However, I am happy for her when she skates well and wins.

I just saw Fumie skate her Mozart LP almost cleanly at NHK (landed four triples) and although I loved that she skated to Mozart, neither the choreography nor the performance grabbed me, and I thought it would. I love her SP to a string/piano transciption of the Stones' "Paint It Black," but Mozart didn't do it for me. At least at NHK, I felt Fumie's line on everything, her free leg on her jump landings, spirals, spin positions, everything except her beautiful edges, speed, and that killer great final scratch, did not reflect for me the crisp clean style of Mozart. Perhaps that's why I liked her so much in "Paint It Black." Even in the string/piano transcription, you can still feel that throbbing beat and wild Mick style of the original. For me, somehow the softer version of "Paint It Black" combined with Fumie's natural style and Lori's choreography was a perfect fit. I hope to see more like it.
Rgirl
 
Rgirl, I am coming more to see what you are saying about Fumie. I just saw the NHK free skate, too. It was OK. I look forward to seeing it again tomorow.

But I wonder if maybe we haven't seen the real Fumie yet. We have all (Lori and Fumie included) seen Fumie as a delicate little flower, an ethereal and lyrical type of skater. We may one day look back at the Paint it Black program as the start of something big.

I do agree with Nadine that Fumie has looked up to Michelle and tried to emulate her. Interestingly, Michelle too is moving away from the lyrical angel to the mature athlete reveling in her artistry and power.

Mathman
 
Joesitz said:

As for Wagner which I never thought could be skated, I was amazed at S&P. It was like they were involved in a love duet under drugs. And that's the way the composeer wanted it.

Joe

LOL Joesitz, I believe they called that the love potion in Liebstod / T&I.

BTW, you love Wagner, how do you hold your attention for 5 hours through T&I, or Parsifal.

I do not care for hypergraphia, at least Dostoevsky had TLE ( well documented, so there is no need to play cyber space neurologist without a medical license) as an excuse. Of course hypergraphia and micrographia do not equate to TLE, I believe they called it "consistent with but not diagnostic of TLE"? What was Wagner's reason? :) Sorry, I know you really love Wagner.

PS to add, I am very open minded about taking Wagner appreciation 101 :)
 
Last edited:
Mathman said:
But I wonder if maybe we haven't seen the real Fumie yet. We have all (Lori and Fumie included) seen Fumie as a delicate little flower, an ethereal and lyrical type of skater. We may one day look back at the Paint it Black program as the start of something big.

I do agree with Nadine that Fumie has looked up to Michelle and tried to emulate her. Interestingly, Michelle too is moving away from the lyrical angel to the mature athlete reveling in her artistry and power.
Mathman
Mathman,
Interestingly, at Fumie's performance of her SP at the GPF, Dick Button just said how much he liked it and that he felt the reason was (I'm paraphrasing) that she wasn't trying to layer being a dancer on top of her skating and that by not doing so, her movement and skating was much stronger. Dick said it much better (am still recording so I can't go back and quote him exactly) but you'll hear it when you watch the GPF today (Saturday).

This may just be semantics, but I agree that Fumie tried to emulate Michelle, but not imitate her. The simple definintion of imitate is "to make a copy of," or in this case, it would be "to copy." Emulate is defined as "to strive to equal or surpass." Perhaps it's a subtle difference and not worth quibbling over, but at least to me I can see Fumie striving to equal or surpass Michelle's skating strengths and style, but I don't think she and Lori would try to copy Michelle. After all, Lori sine qua non, at least as I know it, is that she tries to find the skater's inherent way of moving and work from that to create the choreography. I think "Swan Lake" was just a misjudgment on Lori's part.

I am with you all the way, though, that hopefully we will look back at "Paint It Black" as the start of Fumie's change in her skating to that of, as you said about Michelle, a mature athlete reveling in her artistry and power. It's the essential thing I love about Irina, that despite her bowed legs, lack of extension, and roccoco arms, she exuded her joy and love of life with every move and at least for me and I know others, it resulted in a style that was uniquely Irina. When choreographers tried to make her balletic is the only time Irina looked awkward, IMO. But in programs like "Schindler's List," she was beautifully expressive, her skating very evocative of the music in an abstract rather than story way, and I thought her skating was just gorgeous. Irina didn't really start to find that until 2001, but my point is that I hope Fumie finds the same thing for herself and like you said (and Bugs Bunny sings;)), that "Paint It Black" could be the start of something big. On with the show, this is it!:)
Rgirl
PS Getting back to music, anybody got any ideas on why more skaters don't use Bach? I think some of his concertos, if well edited; his harpischord pieces transcribed for piano; and his solo violin and cello partitas would make for wonderful programs for the right skaters. And after all, Johann is the man!
 
Last edited:
rtureck said:
LOL Joesitz, I believe they called that the love potion in Liebstod / T&I.

BTW, you love Wagner, how do you hold your attention for 5 hours through T&I, or Parsifal.

I do not care for hypergraphia, at least Dostoevsky had TLE ( well documented, so there is no need to play cyber space neurologist without a medical license) as an excuse. Of course hypergraphia and micrographia do not equate to TLE, I believe they called it "consistent with but not diagnostic of TLE"? What was Wagner's reason? :) Sorry, I know you really love Wagner.

PS to add, I am very open minded about taking Wagner appreciation 101 :)

I realized my first Parsifal was pennance for all my sins. and I said to myself, never again, Parsifal. However a friend insisting I see it again, suggested that I arrive after the first act. It worked. The music was so senuous Even missing the first Act, it was still a long opera. T&I was the first opera I ever saw. All I knew was the Love Duet and I waited 3 hours for it and the Liebestod came after 2 more hours. However, I saw it again and again, and got hooked on Wagner. Rather then spend too much time on Wagner, I would suggest you see the Richard Burton movie. It was done quite well and is quite informative of the composer's life.

Back to Fumie. I was never a fan of Fumie. I put her in the class of 'competitive skaters only'. Nothing wrong with that. Figure Skating is basically a sport. There are many on my list of 'competitve skaters only', with Irina Slutskaya at the top.

But as Irina began to move off the list(it takes time) and join my very special list of skaters so it seems Fumie is also. It will still take time but this GP Final is a beginning.

Joe
 
Last edited:
Originally posted by Joesitz:
I realized my first Parsifal was pennance for all my sins. and I said to myself, never again, Parsifal. However a friend insisting I see it again, suggested that I arrive after the first act. It worked. The music was so senuous Even missing the first Act, it was still a long opera. T&I was the first opera I ever saw. All I knew was the Love Duet and I waited 3 hours for it and the Liebestod came after 2 more hours. However, I saw it again and again, and got hooked on Wagner. Rather then spend too much time on Wagner, I would suggest you see the Richard Burton movie. It was done quite well and is quite informative of the composer's life.
Joe,
Very interesting approaches to "Parsifal" and "T&I." ITA, though and had similar experiences. I didn't get the advice to skip the first act of "Parsifal" but a musicoligist friend told me to read a book about the sacred spear and Hitler's obsession with not only the whole "Parsifal" myth, but also his belief that the sacred spear really existed and that if the Nazis could find it they would rule the world forever.

BTW, did you know the Kirov does a ballet version of "Parsifal"? I haven't seen it but would love to.

I also found that the more I saw "I&T" or listened to it, the more it grew on me. For me it was like reading "Ulysess." At first your like "What the...?" but the more you read it, the clearer it becomes, the more you can see/hear theme and variation, dramatic repetition, all that good stuff--or maybe it just gradually changes the way your brain is able to absorb and understand such music or writing.

However, I must say I always had a hard time dealing with Wagner's well documented anti-semitism and his musical genius. I forget who said it, but somebody said about Wagner re his antisemitism, "He spun gold from the s--t of his brains." Ultimately I just had to come to terms with the fact that a lot of great artists in every medium were/are truly awful people, but this doesn't take away from the greatness of their art--at least not IMO.

I also agree on the Wagner biopic with Richard Burton. Totally cool.
Rgirl
PS Something else that helped me with Wagner was listening to Bruckner. As my musicoligist instructor and friend said about Bruckner, "He is where he is going." When I could still run, I used to run miles listening to Bruckner on headphones. It's almost as if you can feel new brain connections forming by listening to him.
 
Last edited:
RGirl - While it is difficult to disbelieve Wagner's antisemitism, I have to wonder what the Megalomaniac would think of Hitler? Wagner was no fool. He enjoyed wealth and Ludwig paid him plenty. Hitler coming out of nowhere would not be appealing to him. Antisemitism they had in common but I can't see them as friends.

Verdi, a staunch defender of human rights, heard of his competitor to the north and went to see Lohengren. Afterwards, he wrote his most important muscial operas: Aida; Othello, and Falstaff. Connection? Who knows?

Joe
 
Interesting points, Joe. I knew Verdi was ahead (or out) of his time in terms of human right, but didn't know he wrote "Aida," "Othello," and "Falstaff" after seeing "Lohengrin." Very interesting.

As for Wagner, it's been well established in his own writings and by his biographers that he had quite the ego and loved being around the powerful. His association with Hitler himself could have been just that, wanting to be in with the Big Guy. But Wagner's antisemitism was virulent. So was that of many other great artists of the time. IMO, it's part of the dichotomy of human nature and I can understand people not being able to get past Wagner's hatred of Jews to get to his music, which is tough enough as it is.

I was in a reading group in a building I used to live in. It was pretty much all middle class folk, mostly women. The stated intention was to read and discuss Shakespeare. I was psyched since I hadn't been around such readers in about eight years. But once we started, it became clear that they weren't really interested in Shakespeare but rather Oprah's Book Club. Not that there's anything wrong with that; I was just disappointed in the advertising. Anyway, when we did read Shakespeare, one woman would not even read "The Merchant of Venice" because she was convinced it was antisemitic and the night we were to discuss "Merchant," out of the dozen people in the group, only myself and the group leader showed up, lol. My point is that the pendulum swings both ways.
Rgirl
PS Sorry to get off topic. Will get back to Fumie and off this fascinating but OT sidetrack.
 
Last edited:
Getting back to music, anybody got any ideas on why more skaters don't use Bach? -- Rgirl
I have wondered about this, too. I think the reason is that it is too hard and puts too much of a burden on the skater and the choreographer. As opposed to opera, ballet, etc., where the program writes itself.

In baroque music, it seems like the emphasis is on counterpoint and ornamentation rather than on harmony. This means you don't get a huge swelling crescendo to pace your most eye-catching move to, but rather you have to have interesting things going on all the time, maybe more than one. You can't play Bach while you are doing a five second straight on entrance to your triple Lutz.

Also, I think that many of the pieces that you suggested have a chamber quality about them, even if scored for larger instrumentation. To take what is basically chamber music and amplify it electronically so that it fills a huge arena -- I think that risks compromising what we liked about the music in the first place.

Just my amateur opinion.

Mathman
 
Quote "Anybody got any ideas on why more skaters don't use Bach?"
I would think it would be really hard to practice listening to a dirge! :laugh:
In other words, I don't much care for Bach. :eek:
 
Joesitz said:
I realized my first Parsifal was pennance for all my sins. and I said to myself, never again, Parsifal. However a friend insisting I see it again, suggested that I arrive after the first act. It worked. The music was so senuous Even missing the first Act, it was still a long opera. T&I was the first opera I ever saw. All I knew was the Love Duet and I waited 3 hours for it and the Liebestod came after 2 more hours.


I agree that Wagner wrote some of the most sensuous music, even Wotan's farewell, and magic fire music are very sensuous. One of my friends who worships Wagner call that "sex for the brain" It is my observation that people either love or dislike Wagner there is not much middle ground. People who love him will get past his antisemitism, stealing his best friends wife, disloyal to his mentor/ friend Mendelssohn etc. They usually point us to Siegfried Idyll as an introductory piece. "If Wagner can write something so beautiful for his wife, he couldn't be so bad" One of my problems with Wagner is that I do not want to Wait for 5 hours for the few gems.

Will people feel the same about PIT's swan lake and nut cracker, if they know he had relationships with teenage boys?

Didn't I&Z skated to some techno version of a Bach tocatta and fugue? Lovely Sarah's Olympic short program Ave Maria was basically Gounod superimposing a lovely string (violin or cello) melody over JS Bach's Prelude no 1 in C major from The Well-Tempered Clavier.

If skaters want to try JS Bach's sonata / partita for solo cello or violin they better have quiet edges LOL

Back to Fumie, I watched her GPF free program many times, and it is growing on me. I think BUTTon is wrong about Fumie does not have the stretch for a Mozart piano concerto program. Mozart piano concerto is not about stretch, it is about flow, contrast, nuance and subtle mood changes. It is difficult to skate to Mozart, and Fumie has not fulfilled Lori's artistic visin for her, but I think Fumie is the right skater for that, and I can only think of one other eligible skater, and 2 pro skaters who may be a better choice for Mozart's music.

Off topic, Yuka's mom looks young, I see why Yuka has such beautiful complexion.
 
Last edited:
Yuka :love: looks so much like BOTH her parents. I bet I can guess at least one of the two pro skaters who could do Mozart.

RTureck, I was intrigued by your question earlier about whether the program would be stronger if it used just the piano concerto and left off the symphony. I don't really have an opinion on that. I do not have enough of a musical imagination to think about how the program ought to go if it just used the K488. It does seem to me that when the symphonic part stops and the concerto begins, in Fumie's program, there is a distinct sense (to me) of, "OK the intoduction is over and now I'm ready to start my real program."

What do you think?

Mathman
 
Quote from rTurek:

Will people feel the same about PIT's swan lake and nut cracker, if they know he had relationships with teenage boys?
________________________________________________

People have trouble differentiating between talent and disapproval of artists' personal lives. RGirl gave a good example of Shakespeare. My friend Barry Cohn, yes he's Jewish, dragged me to an Elizabeth Swartzkopf concert at Carnegie Hall way back when. The pickets demonstrating in front of the building were vociferous because she had been married to a Nazi General. It didn't bother Barry, he liked her voice (and so did I). There's more to this story but not here.

As for PIT's Swan Lake and Nutcracker, I believe there was quite a bit of prejudice against him in the international musical community and still because of his sexual orientation. I often hear some people say, his music is so feminine. Hmph! better than anything they could compose. Good movie to see: The Music Lovers with Glenda Jackson and Richard Chamberlain. It's a Ken Russel film so you know what to expect.

Back to Fumie: She has a taste of GOLD. She'll want more.

Joe
 
my two cents

Fumie is a very pretty skater, and as the Japanese team as a whole keeps improving I'm really looking forward to the '06 Olympic season.

I really like her SP this season. And I think the pants suit it. Since it connects back to the "rock" aspect of the music. Orchestrated Rolling Stones isn't exactly traditional music, and pants on a ladies costume isn't traditional dress. It works, in an odd way. At least there aren't any strange pleather things hanging off it.
 
Back
Top