Gabriella Papadakis & Guillaume Cizeron

[cocotaffy]

I follow you with what you say about Caron but the comparison with Sharon Rogers and the Turkish guy doesn’t make sense at all.

I meant it does look suspicious for her to end up judging the four competitions but it would have looked even weirder if she would have been the only one. Fortunately for her, two other judges were also selected 4 times. Does it make more sense ?

 

[alain06fr]

I meant it does look suspicious for her to end up judging the four competitions but it would have looked even weirder if she would have been the only one. Fortunately for her, two other judges were also selected 4 times. Does it make more sense ?

Ah ok, I misunderstood it ! So I follow you 100% then

 

[Koatterce]

Good this is being said out loud. Miss Caron is indeed a very lucky woman being judge to the 4 ice dance events, team and individual. She should go to Vegas now and gamble. To be fair Sharon Rogers and the Turkish guy are equally lucky it seems.

Out of curiosity, I calculated the probabilities of being the judge for team/SD, team/FD, team/both, SD only, FD only, and SD/FD only. judges remain the same for both portions of the team event, so I assumed that they were drawn for the team event as a whole.
It turns out that being drawn for all events is not as unlikely as it appears; in fact, it is the most likely scenario.

Team/SD: 21.3% [UKR, ISR]
Team/FD: 21.3% [ESP, SVK, CHN]
Team/SD/FD: 26.6% [CAN, JPN, USA, TUR]
SD: 9.5% [FRA, ITA]
FD:9.5% [POL]
SD/FD: 11.8% [RUS]


It is possible that I messed something up, but I doubt it because all the probabilities that are supposed to add up to 100% actually do

 

[alain06fr]

The ISU must take action, such as:
- A judge can't be president of the federation he belongs to!!! It's just sooooo obvious.
- Judges must be chosen by an independent Authority, which should be in this case the ISU, assuming the ISU is an independent organ. But who believes in the independence of the ISU?
- "One key element in the ISU’s procedure is an algorithm that flags judges whose scores fall outside what is known as the “corridor”". This is exactly what happens in gymnastic and it's quite successful. How many years will the ISU need to take action in this area? Judges giving scores inside the "corridor" must be chosen in first place.
- One can easily understand that discarding the lowest and highest marks is the best excuse for some judges to over score their teams and underscore their competitors hence all marks must be taken into account to calculate the scores.


https://www.buzzfeed.com/johntemplon/the-edge?utm_term=.klDWZWD2Z#.yn3yGyJXG

And the main part of the article below:

But a major problem remains built into the system, current and former officials said: Each country’s skating program chooses its own judges. The US Figure Skating Association chooses the American judges who will go to the Olympics, the Russian association chooses the Russian judges, and so forth. This process, the officials said, creates incentives for bias: National federations want judges who will give their skaters the best scores. If judges “do something that’s not liked, then their country will just remove them and appoint a different judge,” said Tim Gerber, a former US national-level skater.

The ISU declined to comment on BuzzFeed News’ analysis or to answer detailed questions about exactly how the organization evaluates and disciplines judges.

 

[cocotaffy]

Out of curiosity, I calculated the probabilities of being the judge for team/SD, team/FD, team/both, SD only, FD only, and SD/FD only. judges remain the same for both portions of the team event, so I assumed that they were drawn for the team event as a whole.
It turns out that being drawn for all events is not as unlikely as it appears; in fact, it is the most likely scenario.

Team/SD: 21.3% [UKR, ISR]
Team/FD: 21.3% [ESP, SVK, CHN]
Team/SD/FD: 26.6% [CAN, JPN, USA, TUR]
SD: 9.5% [FRA, ITA]
FD:9.5% [POL]
SD/FD: 11.8% [RUS]


It is possible that I messed something up, but I doubt it because all the probabilities that are supposed to add up to 100% actually do

Thanks then the French judge is just really unlucky. Oh well ...

The ISU must take action, such as:
- A judge can't be president of the federation he belongs to!!! It's just sooooo obvious.
[/COLOR]

Thanks for the read, very interesting indeed. But this statement of yours I selected should be so evident, I don't get how the ISU hasn't taken action already. Then figure skating keep being making fun of for lack of objectivity with people even saying it shouldn't be an Olympic discipline. There are national biases from all judges but as this article mention, some simple actions could at least reduce it.

 

[Bcash]

Have we talked about their actual skate at the Olympics yet? I mean observations on new changes and whether we like them or not. It usually happens after every competition but I feel like we've been talking a lot about various external circumstances after the Olympics ended.

They've made changes to the second half of the straightline step sequence. I don't have a strong opinion on this either way. More choreographic details were tweaked. I preferred when Gabby would lift her arm to the sky during that curve lift, but at the Olympics she sort of just leaned away from Guillaume's body more than usual, without the arm extending upwards. But I liked the "looking up with her arms open to the sky" move, done right at a note in the music, when he picks her up for that final lift, as if she's woken up from a trance, a melancholy goodbye to an intense experience. She did it at Europeans but it was more pronounced at the Olympics. Earlier in the season she would simply look down at Guillaume at that point.

 

[alain06fr]

And another interesting paper...

https://www.buzzfeed.com/johntemplo...udges-may-have?utm_term=.jjlyYypvY#.am6g6g1r6

After the competition, BuzzFeed News calculated what would have happened if the Canadian and French judges’ scores were all replaced by those of an “average” judge. In that scenario, Papadakis and Cizeron would have won the gold medal by 0.39 points. (You can read more about our analysis here.)

 

[icetigger]

And another interesting paper...

https://www.buzzfeed.com/johntemplo...udges-may-have?utm_term=.jjlyYypvY#.am6g6g1r6


BuzzFeed News also calculated what would have happened if the scores of the French and Canadian judges were simply removed. In that scenario, there would have been only seven judges on the short dance panel and only eight judges on the free dance panel. In this analysis, too, Papadakis and Cizeron would have passed Virtue and Moir for the gold medal, in this case by 0.46 points.

Thanks Alain, I wondered what the maths was if Leanna Caron had been removed. Now, I know......

 

[icetigger]

“At Skate Canada, we have a history of very professional judging that’s very fair, and we’re proud of that. I feel that, as Canadians, when you win in [the] Olympics, it’s when you deserve it, and we feel like these Olympics medals, that we deserve [them].”

[/B][/COLOR]

The telling line however for me is this......... It makes clear that Leanna Caron was operating as a Skate Canada official when she was judging, and not an ISU one, and that Virtue and Moir were fully aware of this.

 

[Anyasnake]

Have we talked about their actual skate at the Olympics yet? I mean observations on new changes and whether we like them or not. It usually happens after every competition but I feel like we've been talking a lot about various external circumstances after the Olympics ended.

They've made changes to the second half of the straightline step sequence. I don't have a strong opinion on this either way. More choreographic details were tweaked. I preferred when Gabby would lift her arm to the sky during that curve lift, but at the Olympics she sort of just leaned away from Guillaume's body more than usual, without the arm extending upwards. But I liked the "looking up with her arms open to the sky" move, done right at a note in the music, when he picks her up for that final lift, as if she's woken up from a trance, a melancholy goodbye to an intense experience. She did it at Europeans but it was more pronounced at the Olympics. Earlier in the season she would simply look down at Guillaume at that point.

I believe in the Midline they had to make sure to get that level4 so Gabby twizzled when Guillaume was in a short spread eagle. I prefered the previous version too - question of taste I guess ? This is where requirements in levels can be annoying I actually really like the version that was filmed live instead of the camerawork we got during the Olympics. I wish I could see them live, because it looks like a dance that is "lived" not "executed".

 

[Anyasnake]

“At Skate Canada, we have a history of very professional judging that’s very fair, and we’re proud of that. I feel that, as Canadians, when you win in [the] Olympics, it’s when you deserve it, and we feel like these Olympics medals, that we deserve [them].”

I'm trying to not care too much about the outcome because it's not going to change and won't help anybody feel better. However, this is hypocrisy at its finest. I often noticed around forums how apparently "Europe is a political machine" and "USFS and Skate Canada should do the same". As if they didn't. They got a gold medal for one of their teams in 2002 AFTER the competition. If it's not political, tell me more ? Another narrative that is just bonkers, how can people even believe it ?

If the ISU doesn't want to take actions, they'll face a serious issue anyway. Allowing president of federations to judge is unexplicable. Only in figure skating...

 

[alain06fr]

And a third one....

http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/Competitions/2018OWG/2018 OWG DFD.htm

This would not be the first Olympic event (in all sports) that might have been decided by an equipment failure, and it probably won't be the last. It's tragic for the French couple, but it's a part of all sport.

It is even more tragic for the French couple, however, that this Gold was also decided by the luck of the draw of judges in the free dance and the rampant national bias that taints figure skating judging.

 

[icetigger]

Have we talked about their actual skate at the Olympics yet? I mean observations on new changes and whether we like them or not. It usually happens after every competition but I feel like we've been talking a lot about various external circumstances after the Olympics ended.

They've made changes to the second half of the straightline step sequence. I don't have a strong opinion on this either way. More choreographic details were tweaked. I preferred when Gabby would lift her arm to the sky during that curve lift, but at the Olympics she sort of just leaned away from Guillaume's body more than usual, without the arm extending upwards. But I liked the "looking up with her arms open to the sky" move, done right at a note in the music, when he picks her up for that final lift, as if she's woken up from a trance, a melancholy goodbye to an intense experience. She did it at Europeans but it was more pronounced at the Olympics. Earlier in the season she would simply look down at Guillaume at that point.

As much as I want it to be a case of them going out there and it all being art and absolute and whatnot, there obviously is a dialogue taking place across the season between them, the judges, and the protocols that influences how the programme develops over the season. Overall, I felt the freedance was one of their best performances alongside Coc and French Nationals. The awkwardness after the choreo spinning movement had been smoothed out with a slight rearrangement of the moves there. There was a change in the transitions before the final lift; the repeated move wasn't repeated but instead changed. The mist had the most change; to make sure it got level 4 and all the features were obvious. Overall it was alongside COC and french Nationals a pretty much faultless performance. You'd have to be really really picky to give out level 2s for any of the elements......

 

[Anyasnake]

You do realize the lowest and highest scores are thrown out right?

Yes, but the mean changes anyway and those calculation were done considering this. While in the SD it balanced out, it didn't for the FD. L3 on the SD included.

This is not scapegoating the CAN judge. This is when fans decides to look at the protocols, and since people did that all season, it's absolutely fair doing this now for the biggest competition. If roles were reversed, you would have the same situation with fans reading the protocols. Nothing new.

And let's not pretend the situations would have been the same anyway. Had a FRA judge done that ? you'd here it until 2038... At least, the discussion stays in this thread.

 

[peepsquick]

You do realize the lowest and highest scores are thrown out right?
And you also realize that this competition was decided by the technical panel, iow by the L3 P/C got vs L4 V/M got in SD?
The judges actually marked P/C marginally better with their GOE and PCS. It's the L3 that decided this competition and the fact that V/M skated the best they ever skated all season that the judges couldn't mark them lower than they did, and some certainly tried.

I understand the disappointment, it's still raw and skating fans are passionate. But objectively you have to look at what really happened in this competition. I'm not going to say more, and wasn't going to say anything, but this scapegoating the Canadian judge and saying she decided this event is 100% wrong and mathematically was of no significance to change the result. Her marks were thrown out and when she was only one increment (.25) lower in 4/5 PCS (2 increments 0.50 in transitions which can be justified) than the numbers she gave P/C it doesn't even make the minute difference some people want it to make. Math is Math.

Dear CAS, I was not going to get into it either: what is done is done. I am only mildly nauseated by the blatant, in your face double-standard of many Canadian fans (I am not assuming that you are Canadian, by the way). We have heard all season the the OG would be rigged in favor of the French dancers because French judges or Gailhaguet were so corrupt and most of all , I think, because V/M could not possibly be beaten. If the situation was reversed, it would be a metaphorical bloodbath by now! So, your voice, any voice of reason, would have been most welcomed earlier in the season. Now it only sounds trite, I'm afraid.

 

[Bcash]

You do realize the lowest and highest scores are thrown out right?
And you also realize that this competition was decided by the technical panel, iow by the L3 P/C got vs L4 V/M got in SD?
The judges actually marked P/C marginally better with their GOE and PCS. It's the L3 that decided this competition and the fact that V/M skated the best they ever skated all season that the judges couldn't mark them lower than they did, and some certainly tried.

I understand the disappointment, it's still raw and skating fans are passionate. But objectively you have to look at what really happened in this competition. I'm not going to say more, and wasn't going to say anything, but this scapegoating the Canadian judge and saying she decided this event is 100% wrong and mathematically was of no significance to change the result. Her marks were thrown out and when she was only one increment (.25) lower in 4/5 PCS (2 increments 0.50 in transitions which can be justified) than the numbers she gave P/C it doesn't even make the minute difference some people want it to make. Math is Math.

Except that it affects the mean in a number of scenarios. Read the post.

 

[CAS]

Yes, but the mean changes anyway and those calculation were done considering this. While in the SD it balanced out, it didn't for the FD. L3 on the SD included.

This is not scapegoating the CAN judge. This is when fans decides to look at the protocols, and since people did that all season, it's absolutely fair doing this now for the biggest competition. If roles were reversed, you would have the same situation with fans reading the protocols. Nothing new.

And let's not pretend the situations would have been the same anyway. Had a FRA judge done that ? you'd here it until 2038... At least, the discussion stays in this thread.

The French judge was doing it all season and it was discussed. Along with the US judge. I don't recall your posts discussing that though? Maybe you could link to them? I do recall you going to great lengths explaining why the scoring at GPF was correct but not so much about the French judge I will just let that say what I think is enough on the topic.

But I still don't understand how you think his numbers in that article make any sense whatsoever. The math just doesn't support it. Just looking at the FD (because you consider the SD to even out). The Canadian just was the lowest score on ONLY THREE areas of the FD: she gave them +2 on Twizzles (when all others gave +3) so that was thrown out, and she gave them two 9.75 in Performance and Interpretation when all others gave 10 (so those those were thrown out). The end result for those three sections was that P/C received 100% possible marks with 1.80 in GOE for twizzles and 10's in both Interpretation and Perfomance so mathematically it's more than insignificant. In all other areas she gave either the same lowest mark as at least one other judge OR sometimes, believe it or not, higher GOE than some other judges.

Math doesn't lie. Again, sorry to derail but I keep reading this theme building here and it's just so incorrect something needed to be said.

Argue they lost because her dress broke causing her to lose balance whenever she twizzled, fair enough if one believes that because it's clear the majority of the judges wanted them to win. But you cannot argue they lost because of the Canadian judge. The math just proves that wrong everytime.

 

[CAS]

Except that it affects the mean in a number of scenarios. Read the post.

I read the post. I did the math.

 

[icetigger]

I read the post. I did the math.

You did your Maths; and a very subjective version of "maths" it is. Unfortunately, you don't really understand how scoring works, and you don't understand the basic maths used for scoring ice dance. The articles Alain has presented are correct and their mathematically correct conclusions are objectively presented and appropriately framed.

 

[Riviva]

The French judge was doing it all season and it was discussed. Along with the US judge. I don't recall your posts discussing that though? Maybe you could link to them? I do recall you going to great lengths explaining why the scoring at GPF was correct but not so much about the French judge I will just let that say what I think is enough on the topic.

But I still don't understand how you think his numbers in that article make any sense whatsoever. The math just doesn't support it. Just looking at the FD (because you consider the SD to even out). The Canadian just was the lowest score on ONLY THREE areas of the FD: she gave them +2 on Twizzles (when all others gave +3) so that was thrown out, and she gave them two 9.75 in Performance and Interpretation when all others gave 10 (so those those were thrown out). The end result for those three sections was that P/C received 100% possible marks with 1.80 in GOE for twizzles and 10's in both Interpretation and Perfomance so mathematically it's more than insignificant. In all other areas she gave either the same lowest mark as at least one other judge OR sometimes, believe it or not, higher GOE than some other judges.

Math doesn't lie. Again, sorry to derail but I keep reading this theme building here and it's just so incorrect something needed to be said.

Argue they lost because her dress broke causing her to lose balance whenever she twizzled, fair enough if one believes that because it's clear the majority of the judges wanted them to win. But you cannot argue they lost because of the Canadian judge. The math just proves that wrong everytime.

What was wrong with french marks? Dont you see any difference? Look how she marked her "own" team! She gave 2 ten's. Little shy , dont you think? That was not a most spectacular score of the night. 4 judges (lol) gave bigger score then her! Three 10s and one even with 4!
And look at canadian's - it is obvious that she DIDNT NEED ANY REASON TO UNDERSCORE FRENCH ,