Gabriella Papadakis & Guillaume Cizeron | Page 106 | Golden Skate

Gabriella Papadakis & Guillaume Cizeron

@ Roast Toast, haha, I know, right? I totally feel you, especially after spending some good minutes yesterday arguing on the TSL facebook page. And I totally agree... to me, the best comparison for the rants against P/C is someone complaining about a musician for not showing versatility. It's silly right? You appreciate a musician for having a style of their own, not for navigating a different genre each year. There's a big difference between not evolving/refusing to change vs. developing your own style. And as you mention, what P/C are doing never feels stagnant, I'm always excited to hear their music choice and see their skills develop. I'm only hoping that an Olympic gold (fingers crossed) will free them even more and we'll get to experience their full vision on what figure skating means to them (it's so refreshing to see skaters actually having an opinion on that).
 
D/W did the same twizzles in every program for 4 years in a row and won the OGM. Clearly the judges don't give one fig about versatility. Its the last thing any P/C fan should worry about.
 
Roast Toast said:
I am trying not to become too much of a P/C uber this season, for the sake of my sanity, so I guess I will post this rant here.

I am getting a little tired of the criticism that is always leveled at Gaby and Guillaume, namely that "they have repeated the same program for 4 years", "their choices of music aren't challenging enough," "they are stagnant artistically"... All these remarks are based on the same idea -- ice dancers should show versatility -- but they never define this nebulous degree of versatility they are apparently failing, or point to a team that actually adheres to this golden standard. Is it the Shibutanis, who have been extremely open about their last three FDs and how they should be seen as an unfolding story, an evolution, something very similar to what P/C have done but not stated? Is it Tessa and Scott, who could not be doing a more "sexy Virtue and Moir free dance" this season if they had tried? Is it Weaver/Poje, who have been trying to rekindle the same magic in their last three FDs? Is it Madi and Zach, who have now apparently gone full in on Montreal mush? Is it Bobrova/Soloviev (lol), or Chock/Bates (ehh...)?

Really, the only top team that has truly, consistently reinvented itself and its style this past quad is Piper and Paul. And this kind of versatility is impressive -- it makes me root for them, and it's what made D/W as well as early V/M so good. But it's really not what I -- and, I believe, the judges -- am expecting to change between seasons. What I want to see is improved skating skills, more difficult and/or better executed elements, and most of all, a greater depth of interpretation. To me, Gaby and Guillaume have shown that in spades in the last few years. They have certainly never felt stagnant. I believe this is what hasn't been working lately for Cappellini/Lanotte, another team often accused of copy/pasting programs: they are still as lovely as they used to be, but perhaps, not more so.

I'm trying not to create too much of a strawman here, but it certainly feels as though, unless a team is doing a program to classical music one season, and a broadway showtune the next, they aren't being "versatile" enough. Considering that the same people also accuse P/C of trying too hard to be "arteests" instead of competitors, it comes off as really tone deaf, because the judges have been, by and large, rewarding their choices. The problem last season was always the short program.

/rant :coffee:
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Couldn't agree more. :) It's probably a matter of personal preferencies. Some people don't see it the way you mentioned above and prefer to see one style/genre one year and a different one the next year. And if that isn't what they see, if it's similar to the dance/s before, they may get bored, don't like it and that particular team is usually criticed for doing "lovely, but repetitive programs". There's nothing wrong with this demand, to each his own. The only problem is when this dissatisfaction results in unnecessary insults and hatred spread all over the internet world.
 
My points about "versatility" are:

1, P/C were the youngest team in the top ten couples last year, despite already being twice world champions. If one is going to do multiple "styles", surely one should develop one's own base style out of which you the might adapt for other multiple "styles". There is still clearly development of their own style going on, so when increasing depth why the requirement for breadth. This year, comparatively, is the same same year in terms of age when Torvill and Dean won their first gold. They are actually still young in comparison to a lot of former successful skaters in even being up the Olympic gold this year.
2,there's nothing in the rules about versatility: complaining that a couple shouldn't be winning the free skate because they are aren't demonstrating versatility is like complaining that a couple shouldn't win because you don't like the colour of the costumes- it's irrelevant to the rules. It's like recent comments that the Shibs are going to beat them technically because they'll have more difficult lifts. Those people are ignorant: they just don' t know how lifts are scored.
3, These complaints are primarily about their success based on them having overleapt the hierarchy completely; and now threatening to beat Virtue and Moir; and is based on grievance about other favourited teams not inheriting their due medals/placement. It is also a complaint that wouldn't be lobbied at them if they hadn't been so successful by this point in their careers.
4, This will be their first Olympics. It's a standard to develop a style over the four years previous, maybe with one experimental free dance the year before; and then likely try something a bit more out there the year after the Olympics. They aren't doing anything unusual.
5, Any downscoring, which is what people are seeking from their complaints, would be grossly unfair on a couple with a way of skating that other couples are all trying to emulate, without the emulative couples being similarly downscaled: copyists shouldn't be advantaged above the originators
6, Style and choreography are different: certainly the choreography between the 2015/2016/2017 skates was radically different: if the skates were the same to some people, it's based on their perception than actual choreographic facts.
7, Different styles (as perceived) are not all equal: some are simply better.
8, i don't think that G and G start the process of developing a free skate with the notion that what they are going to do will be of a certain style. The underlying thing for them is that it's a free skate, and that's a fundamental underlying understanding which enables what they do to come across as authentic, from the heart, as a piece of art, and, well, free.. The complaints of a lack of versatility are from people who either don't understand the concept of "free" , or who are irritated that this couple are doing something that underlines the their favourite skaters aren' t in anyway artists.
9, There are a lot of "versatile" skaters who are just doing the same thing to different music, with that being perceived as versatile based solely on the feel of the music.
10, There are a lot of "versatile" skaters who every year to a mediocre or inauthentic version of a different style.
11, Testing being able to dance a particular style each and every year is what the short program does.
12, The complaints of lack of versatility are likely to get worse this year. Because there is re-use of previous choreographic elements, albeit usually with significant development in their programme this year, so far. Whereas last year, it was really only the spin positions and the rotational lift that had been previously used. But also because, even just based on free skate seen from underneath, they are looking like Olympic champions, and that is looking like an Olympic winning free that will create a moment when people who don't generally watch skating might watch the Olympic competition and fall in love with the sport because of their performance. And no-one else looks likely to be shaping up to having that kind of free skate.
 
I think several arguments are being conflated here. One can:

1. Think P/C are amazing skaters (wonderful edges, movement, etc) who have brought something new to skating.
2. Think that that they are in the hunt for a gold medal. AND
3. Think there are some issues with their current program that should be worked on.

There is usually context to the discussions about versatility and about them challenging themselves. They're young, they have not had a masterpiece SD as seniors (i did not watch them as juniors), and pushing themselves in other styles (which they can make their own) will ultimately make them stronger dancers overall. That's completely fair game if we're talking about P/C in terms of all time greats. In other sports we'll say something like, well I can't consider Federer an all-time great (pre-2009) if he doesn't win Roland Garros. In 2009 he went ahead and did that. Challenge met.

In Moonlight Sonata they chose one of the most revered, well-known pieces. That means that a lot of us are familiar with the nuances of the music and have our own interpretations. I give them props for spurring lots of conversation. We would not be talking if they weren't a special team.
 
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This year, comparatively, is the same same year in terms of age when Torvill and Dean won their first gold. They are actually still young in comparison to a lot of former successful skaters in even being up the Olympic gold this year.
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You really can't compare it. It was a completely different era. It was "wait for your turn" era. Still in 1981 they won gold in the Europeans and the Worlds overtaking teams which were in front of them only a year before.

Of course PapCiz achievements are great and my aim is absolutely not to make them any less spectacular. Just we need to keep in mind that what happened in the first year when they received gold, would have never ever happened in the previous judging system.
 
Rossig said:
You really can't compare it. It was a completely different era. It was "wait for your turn" era. Still in 1981 they won gold in the Europeans and the Worlds overtaking teams which were in front of them only a year before.

Of course PapCiz achievements are great and my aim is absolutely not to make them any less spectacular. Just we need to keep in mind that what happened in the first year when they received gold, would have never ever happened in the previous judging system.
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Plus Torvill and Dean worked up until quite late, too. But in terms of skaters in general the achievements of Pap/Ciz came very early, and that gives people, I feel, a false impression of where they are in their career. (I still think they have won in 2015 under the old system too, even though I accept there was a wait-your-turn system in place)
 
Plus Torvill and Dean worked up until quite late, too.
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They still do, which I'm grateful for :).

Pap/Ciz came very early, and that gives people, I feel, a false impression of where they are in their career. (I still think they have won in 2015 under the old system too, even though I accept there was a wait-your-turn system in place)
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I aboslutely agree, very early. But they wouldn't have, even if they were the best just like in 2015. It was simply impossible.
 
Rossig said:
They still do, which I'm grateful for :).



I aboslutely agree, very early. But they wouldn't have, even if they were the best just like in 2015. It was simply impossible.
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We're going to have to agree to disagree on 2015. I appreciate your point, and agree it was a strong factor back then, and to some degree still exists, but at the same time, the void left by V/M and D/W meant it was an open playing field, and none of the other pairs that could have stepped up to fill the void did so. Plus with the internet and easily accessed earlier skates earlier in the season, and additional competitions like 4CC and GPF (which is another factor in how quickly people can move up and down because the evidence based on which people change their ratings of pairs is more frequent and comprehensive; and also the range of broadcast outlets that now exists is greater) have a created a fluidity that means there is far more frequent assessment of skaters and their material than would have existed in the eighties and nineties too; such that even under the 6.0 system that "shock" win would have been possible.
 
^^^
But don't forget there was no internet or even GP events in the 1980s. The circumstances were completely different.
 
Rossig said:
^^^
But don't forget there was no internet or even GP events in the 1980s. The circumstances were completely different.
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Yeah but that's what I'm saying: could they have won under the 6.0 system in 2015: I think they could, because of rate of competition change and easier electronic access to competition data. But I accept that back in the eighties it is much more debatable and I would agree potentially impossible.
 
Something is reaaaally bugging me haha.

If there is any American and/or Canadian here, please enlighten me : when the media at home (USA or Canada) were talking about let's say Davis/White and Virtue/Moir, IF they didn't win (D/W in 2012 and V/M in Sochi for example), how would the press react ? Because all I saw was that the media really encourage your athletes, not rubbing their loss in their faces all the time. IIRC, when V/M came 2nd in Sochi, they were in a media marathon for weeks (normal after the Olympics) and all I saw were words of encouragement, motivation, emphasizing how well they skated instead of talking about the silver etc, and even now, they say something like "they are back for gold" but they don't really talk about Sochi that much because everybody moved on.

All I see in the French press article is "they lost at worlds", not even "they came second" or whatever. It's okay a couple of times but it was 6 months ago. French press really needs sometimes to take the negativity away (and I'm french).

I must admit, I really admire USA and CDN's way of putting their athletes into a good light. :agree:
 
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