Good or Bad? New Scale Base Value changes, -4.0 deduction on Quads?

[gmyers]

Psh I think you guys are just being dramatic about this. I love quads but I'm in favor of these new rules because I'm sick of seeing quad falls or poorly executed quads getting higher base value and final scores than clean triple Lutz and flips. It's kind of ridiculous. The fact that anyone who doesn't have a quad is automatically considered a second tier skater even if they have better transitions, edges, and quality of skating should have been a red flag years ago.

Don't tell me you really think just because he has quads that someone like max aaron* should get more points technically (not even considering PCS!) than someone like Jason brown who has high GOE on spins, footwork, and his non quad jumps and jump combos. Because previously even with falls max was set up to get way more TES points, even if he has less quality on the other elements and two footed his quads

*Max aaron from 2013. I rather like his new programs

When's the last time max aaron beat jason brown. Old rules were enough to make Max aaron irrelevent against Jason brown and now aaron is Even more irrelevent against Jason brown because of these new rules. Not just max aaron but max kovtun too. Now aaron and kovtun are completely irrelevent to skating.

 

[gmyers]

Thanks. I don't think that this will stop any skater from doing quads. It's still worth the risk.
I just don't like this whole downgrade stuff. That it's better to try to rotate and crash than to open a jump and try to land safely.

It's only with the risk if you are completely successful. If you fail you are punished more than on any other element if you fail. Men eliminated quads before because of that.

 

[aromaticchicken]

I'm talking TES score, of which Aaron has beaten Browns numerous times even with lower quality of other elements. Aaron had a higher TES at us nationals even with dicey landings and negative GOE on multiple jumps. In my opinion jasons superior quality on his non-quad elements should at least put him at parity with Max in TES, especially since max's spins and footwork are weaker, his triples are less gorgeous, and especially more so when max is not on.

In other words, the judges shouldn't have to pad jasons PCS scores (although he actually deserves it) to make up for a huge deficit in tes due to quads, especially when someone like max aaron or maxim kovtun skates sloppy but still has way higher TES

 

[ice coverage]

When's the last time max aaron beat jason brown. ...

Since you asked ... the answer is this past Friday -- at the Freezer Challenge. A specialized comp, but still a USFS-sanctioned event.

 

[gkelly]

It's only with the risk if you are completely successful. If you fail you are punished more than on any other element if you fail. Men eliminated quads before because of that.

As a percentage of the base value, the increased GOE reduction for quads is still a significantly smaller punishment than the lower GOE reductions for easier jumps.

And the fall deduction is the same for all falls; 1.0 is a minuscule percentage of 10.3 or 10.5 compared to the exact same deduction for falling on an element with a value of 4.0 or 6.0 or on no element at all.

 

[gmyers]

I'm talking TES score, of which Aaron has beaten Browns numerous times even with lower quality of other elements. Aaron had a higher TES at us nationals even with dicey landings and negative GOE on multiple jumps. In my opinion jasons superior quality on his non-quad elements should at least put him at parity with Max in TES, especially since max's spins and footwork are weaker, his triples are less gorgeous, and especially more so when max is not on.

In other words, the judges shouldn't have to pad jasons PCS scores (although he actually deserves it) to make up for a huge deficit in tes due to quads, especially when someone like max aaron or maxim kovtun skates sloppy but still has way higher TES

And this rule is a TES attacking rule. So aaron is less likely to compete with brown in Tes.

Since you asked ... the answer is this past Friday -- at the Freezer Challenge. A specialized comp, but still a USFS-sanctioned event.

Good one!

As a percentage of the base value, the increased GOE reduction for quads is still a significantly smaller punishment than the lower GOE reductions for easier jumps.

And the fall deduction is the same for all falls; 1.0 is a minuscule percentage of 10.3 or 10.5 compared to the exact same deduction for falling on an element with a value of 4.0 or 6.0 or on no element at all.

The old UR rules didn't lead to mass elimination of any jump but the quad in men's. so its true while the rule could affect all jumps quads are still the hardest and easiest decision to eliminate. In the current hanyu Fernandez environment that may not happen only because of who is doing them - and keeps quads in. And chan is going to return. But now there is a more severe systemic penalty much like the one that didnt affect 2007 worlds but did 2008 and on.

 

[gkelly]

I think there is an ongoing effort to balance reward for these most difficult jumps with reward for good skating and complete programs.

It's like a seesaw balance scale, with each rule change shifting the weight first toward one end, then the other.

I think most of the changes over the years have moved things closer to equilibrium.

Of course, people who care mainly about jumps above all else, or people who care primarily about what happens on the ice and little about what happens in the air, will each feel things are tilted too far toward the opposite side. By "people" I mean skaters/coaches, and judges, and fans.

I don't think the ISU technical committee (or whoever initiates the rule changes) is taking either extreme position, either that quadless champions are unacceptable or that the sport would be better off without quads.

But I do think that they don't always anticipate all possible repercussions of rule changes that were designed to have one effect on one specific problem and end up having other ripple effects elsewhere in the sport. So then they have to adjust the rules again to compensate.

 

[Blades of Passion]

When's the last time max aaron beat jason brown. Old rules were enough to make Max aaron irrelevent against Jason brown and now aaron is Even more irrelevent against Jason brown because of these new rules. Not just max aaron but max kovtun too. Now aaron and kovtun are completely irrelevent to skating.

Why is it a bad thing that Max Aaron and Maxim Kovtun are "completely irrelevant" to skating, with the way they've actually been skating?

You seem very confused. In 2013 Max was actually skating with great excitement and doing his jumps cleanly for the most part. He became boring with his skating after that season and the execution of his jumps went downhill. If he actually had good execution on the jumps, with decent programs and good performances, then he will beat a quadless Jason Brown.

 

[aromaticchicken]

If he actually had good execution on the jumps, with decent programs and good performances, then he will beat a quadless Jason Brown.

Well you see, this is what actually bothers me about the way quads are scored. Because if you look at everything else besides quads that comprise the TES, Jason should win hands down against Maxim and Max.
A) Spins - Jason consistently receives level 4, and has some of the most difficult spin positions and speed in the entire field.
B) Footwork/Choreo sequences - Jason has stronger moves in the field; spirals, hydroblade, and his footwork sequences are extremely difficult, complex, and he never screws up on them, ever!
C) Triple jumps, especially combinations - Jason is much more consistent on his jumps, has better air position, and in particular his combinations are especially consistent and strong (and backloaded at the end of the program).

This is even assuming Max or Maxim don't fall or anything, the bottom line is that the quality of Jason's elements are exceptional (which is why he was 4th in the world going quadless and with sketchy triple axels). Clean Jason > Clean Max or Maxim in terms of quality... EXCEPT literally the quads.

Forget PCS. Jason does all of the right things to rack up GOE. And yet, even at U.S. nationals where he got +3 and +2 on almost everything, he STILL lost to Max on TES, even when Max had negative GOE on numerous things, including his jumps. Why? Because Jason automatically goes into it with a 10 to 20 point disadvantage because he doesn't have quads. That's insane. If anything, even if Max should "deserve" an advantage for quads, if they skated both clean, shouldn't it at least be closer in TES score?

And Jason is the extreme case where he is literally better at everything except quads than most of the people in the field. If he has no hope to defeat people with quads who are weaker otherwise in skating skills, what hope do others have?

 

[sabinfire]

And Jason is the extreme case where he is literally better at everything except quads than most of the people in the field. If he has no hope to defeat people with quads who are weaker otherwise in skating skills, what hope do others have?

Didn't Jason place ahead of Nam Nguyen at Worlds, despite Nguyen having a successful quad with +GOE?

 

[aromaticchicken]

Didn't Jason place ahead of Nam Nguyen at Worlds, despite Nguyen having a successful quad with +GOE?

Again, I believe Nams TES was higher than Jason's because of the quad. Jason won on PCS, and is one of the rare quadless men who can due to reputation scoring.

 

[Ice Dance]

And Jason is the extreme case where he is literally better at everything except quads than most of the people in the field. If he has no hope to defeat people with quads who are weaker otherwise in skating skills, what hope do others have?

He defeated lots of people at Worlds who have quads and weaker skating skills. He did not defeat Denis Ten, Yuzuru Hanyu, and Javier Fernandez. Who are attempting three and/or four quads within a competition and are among the best performers in the World. Even without the quads, these guys can outjump Jason with harder triple triple combinations. Their skating skills are by no means weak.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Well you see, this is what actually bothers me about the way quads are scored. Because if you look at everything else besides quads that comprise the TES, Jason should win hands down against Maxim and Max.

Yes, but Quads make the entire program more difficult. It takes a lot of energy to execute that element, which means you have less energy for everything else in comparison. I don't agree that Jason is inherently better at the non-Quad jumps. Max, at his best, does those jumps just as well. A bit of an edge problem on the Flip but his Triple Axel is better.

Because Jason automatically goes into it with a 10 to 20 point disadvantage because he doesn't have quads. That's insane.

If Max and Jason were both to theoretically skate perfectly, and just looking at the jumps, Max would have about a 5.5 point advantage on the SP and a 12.5 advantage in the LP (for a program with 2 Quad Salchows). That's 18 points for the whole competition in terms of jumps and that advantage is definitely fair. On the spins and footwork Jason should be able to make up about 3 points in the SP and 4 points in the LP, which means Max is now down to an 11 point difference for the whole competition for doing 3 Quads in the competition vs Jason doing no Quads.

An 11 point technical difference is definitely fair. Skating perfectly with 3 Quads in a competition, but lesser spins and footwork, is still considerably more difficult than skating perfectly without any Quads.

It comes down to the PCS, though. 11 points can definitely be made up for in the PCS but that part is difficult to say without seeing these theoretical perfect performances from each skater. In the SP, it's actually rather easy for Jason to win because there's only a 2.5 difference on the tech mark. Doing Quads in combination are something that is actually very undervalued right now and the advantage for doing a Quad in the SP should really be bigger than it is right now.

For the LP, it's more difficult to say because that would be an 8.5 difference on the tech mark (which again should actually be bigger than it is right now). I suspect that Jason would deserve to be ahead of Max still, based upon what they've shown so far in their careers, but I can't be sure. I don't think Jason's programs have been as good as they can be, so his full potential has not even been shown yet (his 2011 Nationals LP was actually his best so far in terms of the choreography).

If Jason were to theoretically skate a LP that had "perfect" choreography for him and perfect execution from him, then on PCS I would put him ahead by like 20 points, in comparison to Max Aaaron skating his 2013 LP perfectly.

TL;DR - Quads are not at all overvalued right now in base value, however the judges don't necessarily score the GOE's and PCS correctly.

 

[aromaticchicken]

Yes, but Quads make the entire program more difficult. It takes a lot of energy to execute that element, which means you have less energy for everything else in comparison. I don't agree that Jason is inherently better at the non-Quad jumps. Max, at his best, does those jumps just as well. A bit of an edge problem on the Flip but his Triple Axel is better.



If Max and Jason were both to theoretically skate perfectly, and just looking at the jumps, Max would have about a 5.5 point advantage on the SP and a 12.5 advantage in the LP (for a program with 2 Quad Salchows). That's 18 points for the whole competition in terms of jumps and that advantage is definitely fair. On the spins and footwork Jason should be able to make up about 3 points in the SP and 4 points in the LP, which means Max is now down to an 11 point difference for the whole competition for doing 3 Quads in the competition vs Jason doing no Quads.

An 11 point technical difference is definitely fair. Skating perfectly with 3 Quads in a competition, but lesser spins and footwork, is still considerably more difficult than skating perfectly without any Quads.

It comes down to the PCS, though. 11 points can definitely be made up for in the PCS but that part is difficult to say without seeing these theoretical perfect performances from each skater. In the SP, it's actually rather easy for Jason to win because there's only a 2.5 difference on the tech mark. Doing Quads in combination are something that is actually very undervalued right now and the advantage for doing a Quad in the SP should really be bigger than it is right now.

For the LP, it's more difficult to say because that would be an 8.5 difference on the tech mark (which again should actually be bigger than it is right now). I suspect that Jason would deserve to be ahead of Max still, based upon what they've shown so far in their careers, but I can't be sure. I don't think Jason's programs have been as good as they can be, so his full potential has not even been shown yet (his 2011 Nationals LP was actually his best so far in terms of the choreography).

If Jason were to theoretically skate a LP that had "perfect" choreography for him and perfect execution from him, then on PCS I would put him ahead by like 20 points, in comparison to Max Aaaron skating his 2013 LP perfectly.

TL;DR - Quads are not at all overvalued right now in base value, however the judges don't necessarily score the GOE's and PCS correctly.

Sigh your reasoning is pretty good. I guess I just don't trust international judges (especially not after looking at the pcs skaters like Patrick or yuzuru get even on off days, and certainly not when looking at maxim or Voronov) to actually give that 20 point difference in PCS, even if it is deserved. That's why I feel that that 8.5 difference is still potentially a problem. I don't believe Nam Nguyen deserved to beat Jason in TES at world's, for instance.

 

[moriel]

Sigh your reasoning is pretty good. I guess I just don't trust international judges (especially not after looking at the pcs skaters like Patrick or yuzuru get even on off days, and certainly not when looking at maxim or Voronov) to actually give that 20 point difference in PCS, even if it is deserved. That's why I feel that that 8.5 difference is still potentially a problem. I don't believe Nam Nguyen deserved to beat Jason in TES at world's, for instance.

At any rate, at Worlds 2015 for example, Jason beat everybody he deserved to beat, and lost to 3 guys who deserved the medals, for example.

I dunno, you actually sound like a sour fan complaining about your favourite skater not winning. I actually have a question for you: suppose Jason was able to jump 4 quads in his LP. Would you really complain about TES then? Honestly =)

 

[aromaticchicken]

At any rate, at Worlds 2015 for example, Jason beat everybody he deserved to beat, and lost to 3 guys who deserved the medals, for example.

I dunno, you actually sound like a sour fan complaining about your favourite skater not winning. I actually have a question for you: suppose Jason was able to jump 4 quads in his LP. Would you really complain about TES then? Honestly =)

Aww, I'm sorry you think that because it couldn't be further from the truth. I am not upset at all with jasons placement. He was nowhere near ready to be a world medalist, and he overall is not yet of the same caliber as yuzuru, Javi, and denis. (his triple axels are also totally sketchy. Makes the whole thing more amusing because even with downgraded 3A and no quad.. He somehow beat everyone else?! He's lucky the Japanese, Russians, rippon, and farris totally fell apart!

I only used Jason as an example because he is that extreme case. In every aspect except the quad and triple axel, he has maxed out scores on his elements and extremely high quality. It's more of a case study to show that, although the placements were correct, when you look and dig in at the detailed marks, I don't agree with the TES specifics. And I worry that it's a prime example of the sport because focused singularly on quads, even if it results in splat fest events.

Iduno, I used to be obsessed with quads. Then I started skating myself more seriously. I now seriously appreciate the parts of skating I took for granted as being easier, reinforced since they had lower BV. Good footwork is hardddddd! And while yes, at the world level all skaters are already exceptional, sometimes it feels like there's this intense focus on quads as the only thing that shows skating skills. I've seen too many talented skaters prove otherwise and I want to see them thrive under the IJS.

 

[moriel]

Aww, I'm sorry you think that because it couldn't be further from the truth. I am not upset at all with jasons placement. He was nowhere near ready to be a world medalist, and he overall is not yet of the same caliber as yuzuru, Javi, and denis. (his triple axels are also totally sketchy. Makes the whole thing more amusing because even with downgraded 3A and no quad.. He somehow beat everyone else?! He's lucky the Japanese, Russians, rippon, and farris totally fell apart!

I only used Jason as an example because he is that extreme case. In every aspect except the quad and triple axel, he has maxed out scores on his elements and extremely high quality. It's more of a case study to show that, although the placements were correct, when you look and dig in at the detailed marks, I don't agree with the TES specifics. And I worry that it's a prime example of the sport because focused singularly on quads, even if it results in splat fest events.

Iduno, I used to be obsessed with quads. Then I started skating myself more seriously. I now seriously appreciate the parts of skating I took for granted as being easier, reinforced since they had lower BV. Good footwork is hardddddd! And while yes, at the world level all skaters are already exceptional, sometimes it feels like there's this intense focus on quads as the only thing that shows skating skills. I've seen too many talented skaters prove otherwise and I want to see them thrive under the IJS.

Well, the sport is still mostly about jumps. As a basic example, consider how much of the program is the footwork sequence and spins and how much are the jumps =)
By jumps, i dont mean quads, but any jumps. Imho, the BV of a quad is fair compared to a BV of a triple (quad is qay harder than a triple, and the score increase is fair). So why quads and not jumps overall?
Ladies do not have quads, for example, so you could totally look for some examples of how it works without quads for ladies =D

 

[solani]

Well, the sport is still mostly about jumps. As a basic example, consider how much of the program is the footwork sequence and spins and how much are the jumps =)
By jumps, i dont mean quads, but any jumps. Imho, the BV of a quad is fair compared to a BV of a triple (quad is qay harder than a triple, and the score increase is fair). So why quads and not jumps overall?
Ladies do not have quads, for example, so you could totally look for some examples of how it works without quads for ladies =D

The sport wasn't always as focused on the jumps as it is now, quite the opposite. But the audience didn't understand it back then and the audience should recognize who's best. No explanation should be necessary. Everytime someone needs to explain why someone won something isn't right. It could be the way the sport is presented, or it could be the judging system or the judges or ... there are various possibilities. Everything focuses on the jumps, because you can compare them easily. I personally enjoy watching quads but I like watching great programs better and nowadays there should be a quad in it. I agree with Plushenko when he says that an Olympic gold winner should've done a quad in his program.
But I would love to see figures again in competitive skating, I think that nowadays the computer technology could help presenting it to the audience. I mean, people watch curling!

 

[Ice Dance]

I'm pretty sure Brian Joubert didn't find IJS to be all about the quads. If it was, he'd have placed a heck of a lot higher in his final two major international events.

 

[solani]

I'm pretty sure Brian Joubert didn't find IJS to be all about the quads. If it was, he'd have placed a heck of a lot higher in his final two major international events.

He wouldn't have won WC in 2007 without his quad and two rock solid performances. It's true that his quad didn't fail him in his last two major events but, when I remember correctly, he doubled his triples and he received mediocre GOE on everything else.