GP Series: Is it really THAT exhausting?
- Thread starter RealtorGal
- Start date
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2003
Mathman said:DG, what do you think of Brad's suggestion on the other thread that a truly winning stategy would by to push the Junior Grand Prix? Get young kids and their parents involved. Put it on TV live every Saturday morning. Get some Internet fan sites going, where kids could write in, "Mao Asada sucks!!!!!!!", "No, you do!!!!!!!!" -- oh wait, that's Golden Skate, LOL.
About the "figure skating season." I completely agree that you can't have a major sport that just has three events per year (nationals, Europeans and Worlds). But the Grand Prix is not the only way to acheive this. As I have said before, I think it would be great for the sport if someone would organize the three cheesefests into a true season-long competion with big purses.
It would be like the triple crown in horse racing. ("No one has won the triple crown since Michelle Kwan did it in 2007. But here comes Kiera Yamaguchi-Hedican trying for her third consecutive victory and the $10,000,000 Golden Skate Award.")
Taxes? Gee, I thought that was a safe subject. Everybody hates taxes!
Mathman
Here is what I said on Brad's great suggestion:
"ITA with Brad!! Especially now with the age limits for seniors, what a great way to showcase the younger talent to the younger crowd, create new fan bases, etc. Supplementing some TV coverage with internet coverage would be perfect for the teen age group. (and some of us old farts too!)
Brad, we vote you president and CEO of Disney."
My aplogies that taxes are such a sensitive subject for me.
But since I recently left the corporate world to participate in a family, local business with my husband, I won't be paying much of those for awhile. There is a whole bunch of stuff I won't be able to afford for awhile, but THANK GOD my 2006 Nationals tickets are pre-paid, along with my hotel. I'm looking forward to a few years of REALLY capitalizing on the American Dream for Commerce. Then if over-taxation becomes a problem again, look for a BIG announcement that our Corporate HQ is moving to the Caymen Islands. 
No matter how old I get, I will always think I look better with a tan anyway.Piel, why do YOU think there are no fromage fests in other countries? Or maybe there are, and we just never hear about them?? For you folks on the board who are from non-US countries, are there Cheesefests there that we in the US never hear about? I have no idea...just curious. I do think the Cheesefests in the US fracture FS as a sport. In the most recent example (Marshall's in FL) it was a US only competition, right? I hope the Federations and the ISU can somehow come together on what constitutes an international competitive season. That is my selfish wish as a fan, so I can see MORE events that the competitors, fans, and the world take seriously.
DG
Mathman said:Hi Piel, Show, Vietgrl, Panther, etc. Now, you guys know I'm crazy about Michelle. But I really don't think there is any Michelle bashing going on on this thread. In addition to the original topic (What makes the Grand Prix so exhausting?), two questions are being debated.
1. What is Michelle's best strategy for the coming season?
(a) She should do the Grand Prix and get her programs out there in front of the intenational judges.
(b) She should skip the GP, pace herself, and try to peak at Nationals and the Olympics.
(c) This is for Michelle to decide, and we are just flapping our lips in the breeze.
2. Should the ISU try to force skaters to do the Grand Prix if they don't want to.
(a) Yes, the ISU is the governing body for figure skating, it's job is to insure a successful competitive season, and the skaters have to follow the rules.
(b) No, the ISU would better serve the sport if it were less high-handed and if it allowed more room for dissenting opinion and diversity.
I don't see it as anti-Michelle to argue for any of these points of view.
JMO
Mathman
Word!!!
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Piel said:
Doggygirl, I do not see the cheesefests as "fracturing" figure skating, any more than arena football fractures the sport of football in the United States. The more figure skating the merrier. The marketplace will decide, between the cheesefests and the grand Prix, which one turns out to be the NFL and one turns out to be arena football. That's truth, justice and the American way (or at least, that's the entrepreneurial spirit, just like leaving the corporate world and starting your own business :agree: ). Let everybody play the game and the devil take the hindmost.
For my entertainment dollar, these pro-am specials have it all over the Grand Prix. I have been to 3 of them. In the first one, it was an exciting contest between Irina and Michelle for first, and Irina won. In the second, it was a close contest between Michelle and Shizuka (this was in the fall of 2003, and little did we guess that we were seeing a preview of the world championship perfornmance!) Michelle won a nail-biter, by a vote of 3 first place ordinals to 2. (IIRC the U.S. judge and the Japanese judge both went the opposite way, that is, against the skater from their own country). The crowd was cheering for both skaters.
In the third one that I saw, Irina clearly outskated Michelle and won first place unanimously, so maybe that wasn't so interesting from the competitive standpoint. Still, it was very exciting for the fans because this was right at the beginning of Irina's great 2004-2005 comeback year.
For the men, Yagudin won in the first year and Plushenko won the other two. Even though first place was pretty automatic in those particular contests, the race for the other podium spots was top notch. Lysacek, skating first, held off challenge after challenge for second. This was the first time many of us got to see this up-and-comer. Joubert edged Weir for third, although both skaters made mistakes.
Anyway, the point is, we can have both the cheesefests and the Grand Prix. Eventually the paying customers will decide which is the more poplular format. And, yes, wouldn't it be great if other countries decided to have their own, instead of depending so much on the U.S.?
Mathman
The Grand Prix is exactly what you are talking about here. It was created, I believe, for the very reason you state. But if that's not going to survive, how in the world will any other "competitive season" survive? We'll be back to square one again. I believe skating fans need to realize that not all is great. The interest just isn't there anymore. Did you see how empty the arenas were in the GP events? Especially at Cup of China! I'd be surprised if it was 1/4 full. The only exception MIGHT be Skate America if MK competes there (because we all know about that...). I'm sure even Nationals would be less attended if MK were to retire/withdraw.
Sorry, but I think it will soon only be Nats and Worlds, with some pro-ams scattered between.
Been away too long
I was only away from GS for three days and, man, have you'all been posting. This is a long thread.
Guess that quote goes back 5 pages, huh?
I was away for three days because I packed my equipment, my horse's equipment, and my horse and drove a mere 2 hours to study with a famous riding instructor. Not a competition, no airports, not World class stuff here from me or from my horse.
But I got away from my regular eating habits, from my own comfy bed, didn't have my wonderful husband to curl up next to... and arrived home exhausted. Which means I'll have to take a day or two off from training. BTW, when you are tired (or your horse is tired), injuries occur.
I agree with Mathman. Let the skaters who want to do GP do GP and let the skaters who don't opt out. Imagine a situation where the GP was required for Worlds, but not for Nationals. We could have someone win their Nationals but not be eligible for Worlds. How silly would that be? We already have a World Competition where the best skaters aren't skating against the best skaters because each country can only send 1, 2 or 3 skaters and in some countries, the 9th best skater is actually better than the best skater from another place in the world... so doing anything that would make this situation worse would be detrimental to the sport. Let Worlds be Worlds and GP be GP.
Some people can travel, some can't. I'm just not good at it... but, quite fortunately, I get to compete in some terrific shows quite close to home.
Linny
I was only away from GS for three days and, man, have you'all been posting. This is a long thread.
Guess that quote goes back 5 pages, huh?
I was away for three days because I packed my equipment, my horse's equipment, and my horse and drove a mere 2 hours to study with a famous riding instructor. Not a competition, no airports, not World class stuff here from me or from my horse.
But I got away from my regular eating habits, from my own comfy bed, didn't have my wonderful husband to curl up next to... and arrived home exhausted. Which means I'll have to take a day or two off from training. BTW, when you are tired (or your horse is tired), injuries occur.
I agree with Mathman. Let the skaters who want to do GP do GP and let the skaters who don't opt out. Imagine a situation where the GP was required for Worlds, but not for Nationals. We could have someone win their Nationals but not be eligible for Worlds. How silly would that be? We already have a World Competition where the best skaters aren't skating against the best skaters because each country can only send 1, 2 or 3 skaters and in some countries, the 9th best skater is actually better than the best skater from another place in the world... so doing anything that would make this situation worse would be detrimental to the sport. Let Worlds be Worlds and GP be GP.
Some people can travel, some can't. I'm just not good at it... but, quite fortunately, I get to compete in some terrific shows quite close to home.
Linny
Mathman said:
Doggygirl, I do not see the cheesefests as "fracturing" figure skating, any more than arena football fractures the sport of football in the United States. The more figure skating the merrier. The marketplace will decide, between the cheesefests and the grand Prix, which one turns out to be the NFL and one turns out to be arena football. That's truth, justice and the American way (or at least, that's the entrepreneurial spirit, just like leaving the corporate world and starting your own business :agree: ). Let everybody play the game and the devil take the hindmost.
For my entertainment dollar, these pro-am specials have it all over the Grand Prix. I have been to 3 of them. In the first one, it was an exciting contest between Irina and Michelle for first, and Irina won. In the second, it was a close contest between Michelle and Shizuka (this was in the fall of 2003, and little did we guess that we were seeing a preview of the world championship perfornmance!) Michelle won a nail-biter, by a vote of 3 first place ordinals to 2. (IIRC the U.S. judge and the Japanese judge both went the opposite way, that is, against the skater from their own country). The crowd was cheering for both skaters.
In the third one that I saw, Irina clearly outskated Michelle and won first place unanimously, so maybe that wasn't so interesting from the competitive standpoint. Still, it was very exciting for the fans because this was right at the beginning of Irina's great 2004-2005 comeback year.
For the men, Yagudin won in the first year and Plushenko won the other two. Even though first place was pretty automatic in those particular contests, the race for the other podium spots was top notch. Lysacek, skating first, held off challenge after challenge for second. This was the first time many of us got to see this up-and-comer. Joubert edged Weir for third, although both skaters made mistakes.
Anyway, the point is, we can have both the cheesefests and the Grand Prix. Eventually the paying customers will decide which is the more poplular format. And, yes, wouldn't it be great if other countries decided to have their own, instead of depending so much on the U.S.?
Mathman
I must disagree with you. The marketplace will decide only insomuch as whatever the corporations decide to put the most money behind in advertising etc. will be the most successful. This will not necessarily be the high level competitions that the skating fans want to see. The so-called science of economics spoon-fed to us in which competition and quality decide what products etc. succeed is a myth that has never existed anywhere on this planet. And it will not suddenly start to exist to decide the future of figure skating. Such a laissez faire approach will lead only to a lowest common denominator - not what any sport should aspire to.
I also notice that when you describe how much you enjoyed the pro-ams, there is no mention at all of pairs or dance. And of course there isn't. There is no pairs or dance at these events. Chalk a point up to the Grand Prix. There are lots of fans of these events (though I know that in the States they aren't as popular - the American national psyche is so totally tuned to the idea of a single hero that these events, outside of serious skating fans, don't appeal.) I like seeing all four disciplines.
That said, I would love it if the cheesefests and the Grand Prix could exist side-by-side. More skating, of course, is always better from the fan perspective. But if I had to make a choice between the two, I would definitely choose the Grand Prix.
I must respond to the poster who characterized the U.S. cheesefests as biased to international competitors. The U.S. federation CHOOSES to sponsor the cheesefest type of events and is allowed by ISU rules to set the rules for participation. International competitors are invited to most of those events. Occasionally, the events will be for U.S. competitors only. Other federations also have the right and/or ability to sponsor similar events but for whatever reason(s) CHOOSE not to do so. If you will recall, when the cheesefest/pro-am events first began, in addition to the U.S. events, there were also the Canadian Open and the Japan Open. For whatever reason, both the Canadian federation and the Japanese federation have CHOSEN not to continue to sponsor those events, at least not on an international level (they may still sponsor events for their own competitors). That is hardly the fault of the U.S. federation and it should not be criticized for not including international competitors in an occasional event, when it is the only federation which chooses to include international competitors in the majority of its events.
You know, instead of eliminating the Grand Prix, or making it mandatory, stuff could be done to improve it and make it less stressful/more desirable to participate. My suggestions (and they are interlaced so either implement ALL of them or leave it alone):
1) Allow skaters to skate only one event if they want to. Making them skate two or even three makes it more undesirable. Keep the point system so that skaters who do two events are favored over those who do only one.
2) Make it regional. North American skaters can do Skate America and/or Skate Canada, Europeans can have their choice of Trophee Eric Bompard or Cup of Russia, and Asians can do NHK Trophy and/or Cup of China. Take the top two (or three) point-getters from each region and they can skate the GPF for the championship. This eliminates the stress of traveling long distances.
3) Also allow skaters to do no more than two events, I.E. NA skaters can't skate in events other than SA and SC, etc.
4) Throw in an incentive. I.E. Those who make it to the GPF (or the top three in that comp, or whatever) can skip the Qualifying Round at Worlds, and therefore get well-needed rest.
5) There might be one or two I may forget, and I may edit this post if necessary.
JMO, of course. Your mileage may vary.
1) Allow skaters to skate only one event if they want to. Making them skate two or even three makes it more undesirable. Keep the point system so that skaters who do two events are favored over those who do only one.
2) Make it regional. North American skaters can do Skate America and/or Skate Canada, Europeans can have their choice of Trophee Eric Bompard or Cup of Russia, and Asians can do NHK Trophy and/or Cup of China. Take the top two (or three) point-getters from each region and they can skate the GPF for the championship. This eliminates the stress of traveling long distances.
3) Also allow skaters to do no more than two events, I.E. NA skaters can't skate in events other than SA and SC, etc.
4) Throw in an incentive. I.E. Those who make it to the GPF (or the top three in that comp, or whatever) can skip the Qualifying Round at Worlds, and therefore get well-needed rest.
5) There might be one or two I may forget, and I may edit this post if necessary.
JMO, of course. Your mileage may vary.
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2003
I like it Red Dog! How do you suggest they determine who skates in final group of the SP at worlds since you would have those who did best in their QR AND those who skip QR because of GP? Also, they would have to carry over a percentage of the GP scores to make up for the points lost by not skating the QR. Of course there would be the issue of judging panels being different for QR and GP. I would suggest that the QR be just that.... used to determine who gets to move on to the SP with the scores thrown out and everyone starting over with the SP. I guess you could rank the skaters for SP groups by either their QR or GPF points.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Hi, Ragsy, welcome to the discussion. Post often, post long, LOL.
Rain, actually I agree with what you said in your last post. We cannot count on the corporate sponsors always to give us what we want. Still, advertisers do respond to public opinion (it profits them to do so!), perhaps more so than the ISU does.
About pairs, the best place to see pairs skating right now is Stars on Ice. Berezhnaya and Sikharudlidze, Sale and Pelletier, Ina and Zimmerman -- it's pairs fan heaven. And you get Katia Gordeeva as a bonus.
Or you can go to Champions on Ice and catch Pang and Tong, Totmianina and Marinin, and usually (barring injury) Shen and Zhou. Also Belbin and Agosto.
I do not see any way in the world that these shows do any harm to viewers who want to see pairs and ice dancing competitions. If aything, it whets the appetite for more. Why wouldn't we expect audience members to say, "Wow, that was great, I'm going to catch the Grand Prix and see some more."
(They might be disappointed, however, if they expect to see staters of the calibre of B&S and S&P on the Grand Prix roster -- but that's OK, the GP events have their own special charm.)
Red Dog, I have no objection to your plan to save the Grand Prix, but I don't really think it needs saving. Put on the Grand Prix, by all means. The prize money has been reduced, but it is still enough to attract lots of good skaters. Plus, some skaters will go just because, well, I'm a figure skater, this is what I do.
If other skaters choose not to participate, well, its a free world.
Piel, as I mentioned on the another thread, maybe Michelle would be glad to do the Grand Prix if that would get her out of that darn qualifying round, LOL.
Mathman
Rain, actually I agree with what you said in your last post. We cannot count on the corporate sponsors always to give us what we want. Still, advertisers do respond to public opinion (it profits them to do so!), perhaps more so than the ISU does.
ITA. Put them both out there, you go to the one you like best, I'll go to the one I like best. Twice as much interest in and revenue for the sport.
About pairs, the best place to see pairs skating right now is Stars on Ice. Berezhnaya and Sikharudlidze, Sale and Pelletier, Ina and Zimmerman -- it's pairs fan heaven. And you get Katia Gordeeva as a bonus.
Or you can go to Champions on Ice and catch Pang and Tong, Totmianina and Marinin, and usually (barring injury) Shen and Zhou. Also Belbin and Agosto.
I do not see any way in the world that these shows do any harm to viewers who want to see pairs and ice dancing competitions. If aything, it whets the appetite for more. Why wouldn't we expect audience members to say, "Wow, that was great, I'm going to catch the Grand Prix and see some more."
(They might be disappointed, however, if they expect to see staters of the calibre of B&S and S&P on the Grand Prix roster -- but that's OK, the GP events have their own special charm.)
Red Dog, I have no objection to your plan to save the Grand Prix, but I don't really think it needs saving. Put on the Grand Prix, by all means. The prize money has been reduced, but it is still enough to attract lots of good skaters. Plus, some skaters will go just because, well, I'm a figure skater, this is what I do.
If other skaters choose not to participate, well, its a free world.
Piel, as I mentioned on the another thread, maybe Michelle would be glad to do the Grand Prix if that would get her out of that darn qualifying round, LOL.
Mathman
Piel said:
I thought of this as well. They would then obviously need to make changes to the way the QR is done at worlds. This can be done one of many ways:
1) Scrap it altogether, and just have an SP and an LP;
2) Throw away scores from the QR, and have only the top 20 (or top 15) move on to the SP. Only the SP and LP scores will count towards the total; however, do some kind of "point system" for placement (2nd place gets -.25 points, 3rd place gets -.5 points,etc.) Those who get a pass will get no points taken away;
3) Have the points from the GPF LP (multiplied by .25) and have that be the factoring QR score (however I don't like that idea since it would put added pressure on the favorites and it would be a little unfair IMO);
4) or have the SP score multiplied by 1.25
I don't know; there could be a million things that can be done. But I think either Idea 1 or 2 is the way to go in this case.
Last edited:
Here's a more radical suggestion:
Have only 3 GP events per year, with the GPF every other year (but not in an Olympic year). Each year, there would be one NA event, one European event and one Asian event, with a two-week gap between events. The semiannual GPF would be rotated among the regions, and would be scheduled on the first week of December.
Increase the maximum number of singles skaters to 25, Ice Dancers to 16 and Pairs to 14 . Each skater/team would be obligated to do just one event each year. Skaters would have to compete at events in at least two different regions over the two-year period. Skaters would be allowed to express their location preference for a non-home country event, although this would not be guaranteed. Skaters could do a maximum of 3 events over two years; the two highest scores would be counted towards the GPF.
I think if the GP were set up this way, you'd have more exciting events with happier skaters, because the prize money would be twice what it is now.
Have only 3 GP events per year, with the GPF every other year (but not in an Olympic year). Each year, there would be one NA event, one European event and one Asian event, with a two-week gap between events. The semiannual GPF would be rotated among the regions, and would be scheduled on the first week of December.
Increase the maximum number of singles skaters to 25, Ice Dancers to 16 and Pairs to 14 . Each skater/team would be obligated to do just one event each year. Skaters would have to compete at events in at least two different regions over the two-year period. Skaters would be allowed to express their location preference for a non-home country event, although this would not be guaranteed. Skaters could do a maximum of 3 events over two years; the two highest scores would be counted towards the GPF.
I think if the GP were set up this way, you'd have more exciting events with happier skaters, because the prize money would be twice what it is now.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Mathman said:
For my entertainment dollar, these pro-am specials have it all over the Grand Prix. I have been to 3 of them. In the first one, it was an exciting contest between Irina and Michelle for first, and Irina won. In the second, it was a close contest between Michelle and Shizuka (this was in the fall of 2003, and little did we guess that we were seeing a preview of the world championship perfornmance!) Michelle won a nail-biter, by a vote of 3 first place ordinals to 2. (IIRC the U.S. judge and the Japanese judge both went the opposite way, that is, against the skater from their own country). The crowd was cheering for both skaters.
Mathman
Your key word is entertainment. Nothing wrong with that but it is not sport. SOI and COI specialize in that and they are a combination of Pro and Am.
If one has a favorite skater who is in these cheesfests, do you really feel badly when your favorite skater is not the best that night?
Campbells does give a glimpse of the music, costume and choreography of what's to be worked on. for the upcoming season. Given these three factors, does the skater care about this dress rehearsal for the Worlds.? I think so, because the object of the season is gold at the Worlds (or Olys). However, we are limited to only 6 skaters and mostly American. So is it really a harbinger for the Worlds results? Think Slutskaya and Lambiel.
As for the Americans all I could get was Sasha ok another Tschaikowsky I just my sleep though it; and Michelle, you do not have a chance with that monotonous music.
So, for me, I will agree that they can be entertaining but they are not in any way a a serious contest.
Btw, what purpose does this After Season Marchalls serve?
Joe
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2003
Joesitz said:
Hi Joe. I recent years, has there been a Campbell's / Marshall's type event right after Worlds? If so I don't recall it, so I was wondering about this same question myself since I heard about it however many weeks/months ago. Just curious if this has been common and I just wasn't paying attention, or if it's something new. Since I fall on the side of enjoying the competition side of things more than the entertainment side of things, it's very possible I wasn't paying attention.
And I realize Marshall's was a competition. It just "seems" more entertainment in it's nature to me since it was right after Worlds, and US skaters only. That is in no way meant to diss the opinions of others - this is IMO only.
DG
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2003
There's always been some type of cheesefest after Worlds. The format for said competition has varied over the years though. I think its been a team format a few times, a solo competition format, and now its not even the pairs or dancers, it just the ladies and men. I KNOW there's always been on after Worlds though because it usually aired on TV around Mother's Day and they always did something extra cheesy for that. 
I remember one year they had a team format where it was teams of two (skaters or teams as in pairs and dance) and everyone did either an exhibition or long program style number. I remember that Michelle was teamed up with Matt Savoie and they ended up winning. I think it was right after 2001 Worlds. They maybe aren't the biggest or best competitions but they sure were fun to watch because everyone was in good spirits and you could tell they were all having fun too.
I remember one year they had a team format where it was teams of two (skaters or teams as in pairs and dance) and everyone did either an exhibition or long program style number. I remember that Michelle was teamed up with Matt Savoie and they ended up winning. I think it was right after 2001 Worlds. They maybe aren't the biggest or best competitions but they sure were fun to watch because everyone was in good spirits and you could tell they were all having fun too.
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2003
Thanks Heather!!
Thanks for confirming that I dozed off after World's in previous years. My exposure to competitive skating dramatically increased after discovering this board during the 2003/2004 season. So at least now I know more about what is going on!!
I will look forward to seeing this on the tube anyway. And if the skaters are having fun, then more power to them! I hate that pairs (and dancers too, even though that's not my forte) aren't really included except for a couple exhibitions or whatever.
DG
Thanks for confirming that I dozed off after World's in previous years. My exposure to competitive skating dramatically increased after discovering this board during the 2003/2004 season. So at least now I know more about what is going on!!
I will look forward to seeing this on the tube anyway. And if the skaters are having fun, then more power to them! I hate that pairs (and dancers too, even though that's not my forte) aren't really included except for a couple exhibitions or whatever.
DG
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2003
Glad to help out and here's something even scarier about those things. In the past for this last cheesefest after Worlds, I think they've actually shown ALL the skaters!! Can you imagine?!?! LOL 
Similar threads
