GPF Men FP, Sat. 12/10 at 4:55 pm EST

[Mathman]

I analyzed jump GOE in SP , and calculated standard deviation to see dispersion...

Wow, thanks for all the effort, Bighut. Welcome to Golden Skate. Post often, post long!

I think the large standard deviation for Chan's 4T+3T is easy to explain. Falls usually carry and automatic -3 GOE, and four of the judges went along with that convention.

But the element itself was one of the grandest 4T+3T combos of al time, great height, amazing horizontal distance (too much, in fact ), excellent speed going in, good body position in the air, complete rotations, It was a thing of beauty. Without the fall he probably would have got +2 Goes across the board, with a couple of +3's.

So the majority of judges took that into account in their total GOE for the element, which is quite correct according to the rules.,

 

[Violet Bliss]

Wow, thanks for all the effort, Bighut. Welcome to Golden Skate. Post often, post long!

I think the large standard deviation for Chan's 4T+3T is easy to explain. Falls usually carry and automatic -3 GOE, and four of the judges went along with that convention.

But the element itself was one of the grandest 4T+3T combos of al time, great height, amazing horizontal distance (too much, in fact ), excellent speed going in, good body position in the air, complete rotations, It was a thing of beauty. Without the fall he probably would have got +2 Goes across the board, with a couple of +3's.

So the majority of judges took that into account in their total GOE for the element, which is quite correct according to the rules.,

 

[Mathman]

I want to calculate standard deviation in PCS later (but I have been exhausted today) .

Just glancing at the numbers without doing any calculations, it looks like Takahashi's scores produced the most evident split in the judges' opinions. Three judges gave Takahashi marks straight down the page that were noticeably lower than the averages.

Two judges gave him straight pluses against the average and one judge gave four pluses and one zero. This kind of split, pro and con, was no so apparent in Chan's scores.

 

[Spun Silver]

Neither am I interested in poring over old posts, which is why I requested you do it since you were the accuser. I've done my work to bring the facts about the perpetuated myths, like Chan always wins with falls and always wins in Canada, usually expressed in much more colourful language. So it's a crime or a shame for me to back up my assertions and Chan defense with facts? Whenever I challenge someone to substantiate their allegations with facts, it's met with silence or evasive baseless personal attacks. Fail.

You're getting a little carried away. I haven't "accused" you of a "crime or a shame." I didn't say Chan "always" wins with falls and didn't even allude to him "always" winning in Canada.

My point is that an unusual number of his gold medals come in spite of falls and big jump errors, and further, that Canadians seem to have a hard time accepting that other people find this problematic. The more melodramatic you get with language about crime, accusations, and challenges, the more you make my point.

The irony is that I was crazy about Chan at first. First for his grace and skill, then for how he mastered the quad. Now, he seems to be skating in place, so to speak, and there are a lot of other wonderful skaters who aren't constantly drawing attention to themselves for the wrong reasons. I still like him a lot, but he's not in a class by himself. IMO.

 

[Violet Bliss]

to Bighut. That was the coolest first post!


eta: To Spun Silver, I was reacting to and addressing the many anti Chan posts and posters who sometimes turn personal against me for defending him. Your "accusation" was that I was being nationalistic which I then challenged you to demonstrate. I admit I've been pissed this last few days with the attitude against Patrick and against me as well, with unsubstantiable allegations, often personal. I don't shirk from intimidation and challenges. But I use facts, not personal attacks, in rightful debates.

 

[jettasian]

Let's get the details then:

This season so far, in 7 events there have been four Men winners with falls: Chan, Takahashi, Abbott, and Hanyu.

Last season, let me refer to my compilation before Worlds. I adjusted the stats to include the Worlds' result:

Total Falls - Chan 8/5 comp, Oda 8/5, Takahashi 7/6, and Kozuka 3/6.

Total Wins - Chan 4/5 comp, Kozuka 3/6, Takahashi 3/6.

Total Clean Wins - Chan 3/4, Kozuka 2/3, Takahashi 0/3

Total Wins with Falls - Takahashi 3/3, Kozuka, 1/3, Chan 1/4

Total Falls Pre GPF - Chan 8, Takahashi 2, Oda 2, Kozuka 0

Total Falls GPF and after - Oda 6/3 comp, Takahashi 5/4, Kozuka 3/4, Chan 0/3

Total Medals - Chan 5/5 comp, Kozuka 5/6, Oda 4/5, Takahashi 4/6



Takahashi was the only one without a single clean win last season. This season is not over yet, but Chan is not the only winner with falls. Now why is Patrick Chan the poster boy for winning with falls and blamed for the failure of COP as well as the demise of popularity of figure skating?

The people who always whine and mourn about COP's only work for Chan. Don't they realize that if it's not for COP, Dai had NO CHANCE of winning at all at his GF since he was in 5th in SP?

All I have to say is that these people are bitter because the skaters they love didn't win, and then the finger will always point at Chan, and no matter what, will refuse to accept the truth, and will try to bend the truth, and make up garbage to justify their bitterness and hatred.

 

[jettasian]

It's so easy to see this as it is and not with bias. 5 exceedingly good skaters who do not stand our in any system of Judgement. 6.0 or CoP.....just top skaters looking for a win. They all skated in their style, in their tricks, in their speed, in their arm movements, even in their body movements - a good show in any sport. I kind of ignore the SP and judge a skater's tricksT included in the LP.

Gold:Takahashi is not a favorite of mine, but in the contest we are talking about, his style and tricks were the best.
Silver:Fernandez surprised everyone and in his time, he will be a big winner.
Bronze: Brezina did not have a good routine, but who did? He managed to come through, despite his shortness of breath,
Pewter: Chan seemed to be in dreamland. At times he showed us his beautiful stroking, but oh, those Falls.
?????? Abbott: Best blade to ice skater, but he needs consistency.

LOL, sure, what's the point for having a SP right?

 

[Bighut]

Where the discretion of judges comes from?

Thank you for your welcome.
I am happy to post many times if I could write in englihsh fluently ^^;
I am sorry if I write something rude due to my lack of writing skill.

>great height, amazing horizontal distance (too much, in fact ), excellent speed going in, good body position in the air, complete rotations,

>So the majority of judges took that into account in their total GOE for the element, which is quite correct according to the rules.

Do you know how to count combo GOE? Although I read page14 Communication No. 1611,I cant find the sentence about judge's discretion for GOE. Could you tell me the page of the rule?
+GOE comes from difficult jump of combination? I see BREZINA has also quite height,full rotated 4s but fall and got -3 automatically. If +GOE was considered according to the rule,why SD become 0.83?
It is big dispersion and too subjective... It seems fall is determined by fact on the other hand +GOE determined by feeling.
I think +GOE by feeling (I know some point of +GOE determination,but they dont measure the height,distance, speed etc in detail) cause such big dispersion especially 3A despite of the rule .

In case of artistic gymnastic, it is also discussing though, execution got only reduction from 10.0 by how many fall facts one has. It is not smaller objective than give +GOE by feeling.

The Standard deviation shows the dispersion of judges.

 

[genki]

I came back from Quebec yesterday. Boy it was so exciting. I had a luck to ran into Dai again and again till he started to greet me. What a luck!
I became so euphoric that I lost my mind to see programs with cool head.
Dai was just so sensual on the ice that he made some women fainted during his FS!!

Nadine, you are right. He is Elvis on the ice, Nick Slater said so too. Unbelievable charisma and sexuality that even affected the male audience in the arena.

No wonder there are so many Japanese fans following him all over the world. He is just that attractive.
I am not happy with Chan winning free with so many mistakes, but I am still in the afterglow of this fantastic experience, so it does not matter to me right now.

I will see his blues again and again tonight till I go to sleep.
Good night guys.

 

[bekalc]

The people who always whine and mourn about COP's only work for Chan. Don't they realize that if it's not for COP, Dai had NO CHANCE of winning at all at his GF since he was in 5th in SP?

All I have to say is that these people are bitter because the skaters they love didn't win, and then the finger will always point at Chan, and no matter what, will refuse to accept the truth, and will try to bend the truth, and make up garbage to justify their bitterness and hatred.

We are talking about two different things. I like that IJS allows skaters to move up. I don't really want to go back to 6.0. But you are failing to recognize that what people are upset about is more that Chan won the free skate than that Chan won the competition. If Patrick had won overall but Daisuke had won the free, there would have been very little complaining. What people are upset about is Patrick ending up on top in the free.

 

[Bluebonnet]

We are talking about two different things. I like that IJS allows skaters to move up. I don't really want to go back to 6.0. But you are failing to recognize that what people are upset about is more that Chan won the free skate than that Chan won the competition. If Patrick had won overall but Daisuke had won the free, there would have been very little complaining. What people are upset about is Patrick ending up on top in the free.

You think this way but not all people think like you do. Some people put Patrick in the fifth or even sixth place. Some people clearly stated Takahashi should have won gold despite of the missing combo and over 10 points deficit in SP. That was absolutely irrational and unreasonable.

 

[bekalc]

You think this way but not all people think like you do. Some people put Patrick in the fifth or even sixth place. Some people clearly stated Takahashi should have won gold despite of the missing combo and over 10 points deficit in SP. That was absolutely irrational and unreasonable.

Well I think Patrick was overscored in the short for what Patrick did. Its not like Patrick was absolutely fabulous in the short program. I thought 86 points for what he did on the ice was ridiculous. But I would have put him ahead of Dai in the short. Once again could have lived with Patrick winning over all but his wining the free was ridculous. And I'm tired of hearing base value, base value base value. From where I see it Patrick was rewarded "base value" for elements not correctly completed.

In gymnastics there have been controversies about flawed performances winning All Around. But in those types of cases, well Jordyn Wieber didn't win the AA this year because of her bars "base value" She won because she did an Amanar ( beautifully) and two other well executed routines. (not sure I agree but can live with that). She won inspite of her flaws.

If Patrick had actually completed his two quads and then was messy on some of the other jumps, I actually could have lived with him perhaps wining the free. Okay yes he had those errors but he did two quads, and that gives him value over the others. But thats not what happened. This great and fabulous system hands out points like candy to big time flawed hard elements.

And whats unfair about it is, that it means that people who actually truly completed the big hard elements, don't even get fully rewarded for it. Javier, Hanyu etc, deserved more of advantage for their beautifully done quads vs Chan and Daisuke than they got.

I'm sorry to me but falling/ completely messing up an element no more shows you can do a quad, than not attempting a quad does.

 

[Bluebonnet]

Well I think Patrick was overscored in the short for what Patrick did. Its not like Patrick was absolutely fabulous in the short program. I thought 86 points for what he did on the ice was ridiculous. But I would have put him ahead of Dai.

That's your personal opinion. My opinion is Patrick deserved his SP score fair and square. And the judges, by the way they were not Canadians, thought so too.

 

[bekalc]

That's your personal opinion. My opinion is Patrick deserved his SP score fair and square. And the judges, by the way they were not Canadians, thought so too.

The judges think Patrick can wipe the floor 3 times in one program and still deserve 8/9's for a mark that has the words execution. Not in this competition but in other competitions. I'm meh about the judges scores for Patrick.

 

[Bluebonnet]

The judges think Patrick can wipe the floor 3 times in one program and still deserve 8/9's for a mark that has the words execution. Not in this competition but in other competitions. I'm meh about the judges scores for Patrick.

Yeah, a perfect mark for execution is 10. Do you know that? There is a lot of room for improvement.

 

[hybfc]

I would be ok with it if daisuke got 9.5+

Yeah, a perfect mark for execution is 10. Do you know that? There is a lot of room for improvement.

 

[skatinginbc]

My opinion is Patrick deserved his SP score fair and square.

That's my opinion as well.

If Patrick had won overall but Daisuke had won the free, there would have been very little complaining. What people are upset about is Patrick ending up on top in the free.

That's my opinion as well.

 

[stickle]

I agree. Javier has strong jumps! But after doing 2 quads the poor guy always lacks stamina in the latter half. He’s only 20 y.o. and hasn’t reached his prime yet. Do you think with aging he’ll accumulate more stamina?

What so many people seem to forget is that Patrick is only 20 y.o. too and hasn't reached his prime either. He's going to be truly amazing when he does.

 

[Buttercup]

I agree. Javier has strong jumps! But after doing 2 quads the poor guy always lacks stamina in the latter half. He’s only 20 y.o. and hasn’t reached his prime yet. Do you think with aging he’ll accumulate more stamina?

What so many people seem to forget is that Patrick is only 20 y.o. too and hasn't reached his prime either. He's going to be truly amazing when he does.

I think only time will tell who has reached his prime and who hasn't, and I'm not sure this is something that can be foreseen ahead of time. Many skaters develop the presentation side of their skating as their careers progress, but for all we know, the technical side might begin to suffer sooner rather than later when it come to some of the skaters mentioned in this thread. If you look at the older/previous generation of skaters, quite a few of them seem to have been at their peak physically when they were in their early twenties (e.g. Yags, Plush, Lambiel, Joubert, Verner, Takahashi- though in his case this is attributable to some degree to the ACL injury).

 

[stickle]

I would agree there should be more education on TV, online, and basically wherever fans or the public might come across skating as to what is measured and how in both the TES and PCS scores. Canadian TV does a fairly good job of this from time to time. There needs to be much more education. The system is really not that hard to understand. My 10 year old can figure it out really well. I'm a very casual fan of tennis, and there are all sorts of crazy rules in that game around who gets to serve when, how the scores add up, what's in or out, and it doesn't always look logical to me. But I can easily find out the rules if I care to. I don't need people to "dumb down" the sport for me so that I, a very casual fan, might not have to do anything to understand the sport. Same goes for skating. And the commentators can help a great deal by explaining results and performances. It's not that hard. I like to think most people are a little more sophisticated and intelligent to not just look at jumps or whether anyone falls. I think the casual fan will have much more faith and trust in the COP system than the old system. I don't think the loss of interest in skating has anything to do with COP. I think it has to do with the actual judging scandal that only reinforced what people basically already thought was going on, and the amount of money, time and effort involved to participate at an elite level. In Canada, people just go play hockey - boys and girls. Or soccer...It's WAY cheaper. If we want to be treated like a sport, we need to behave like one, with measurable, scorable, verifiable data on performances. COP does that. And I think the inclusion of PCS is important to provide balance to the quality/artistic side of skating. Do we need to define PCS a little more clearly (ie. what constitutes a 7 vs 8 vs 9)? I think so. Do we need transparency in judging? Absolutely. But those things would not change the marks or the placements today.

That being said, it is exceedingly difficult to comprehend the system if one is still kicking and screaming for the "good old days" of 6.0. Or perhaps when people are annoyed that their favourites don't win and it's easier to blame the system and the judges than look at the reality of the marks. That's the great thing about COP. We actually get to see why one skater was marked higher than another skater.

I highly recommend people read a post by Dorispulaski on the ice dance results, and a technical breakdown. It's fabulous. There is no question why the marks are what they are after the SD. I may be a Virtue/Moir uber and think they are the best team, and I may feel that Weaver/Poje are consistently robbed, but the marks, element for element, really do tell the tale for the SD yesterday. Davis/White deserved their placement, even if we feel their PCS was a little high. The great thing about COP is that placements are not predetermined. It's what you do on the day.

This is from a while ago but I just wanted to say what a fabulous post it is. Kudos. :thumbsup:

I so agree that commentators, especially on tv, should be doing a much better job of educating the viewing audience, especially during the actual skate. They should be pointing out the details that make one skater so much better than the other and what is earning points in the scoring system. For instance, just saying that Patrick has the best step sequence is not enough, they should be teaching the viewers what the judges are looking for and why he is racking up the points that give him the win. Conversely, as much as they probably don't want to say anything negative about any of the skaters, they should be pointing out what the lower ranked skaters are doing wrong or at least what specifically they could be doing differently to get more points. Falls or stumbles are obvious but there are so many subtle intricacies to the sport which most of the audience are unaware of. If they don't want to do it during the performance, they should have a sufficiently detailed intro to the competition explaining what the viewer should be looking for. Putting two skaters up side by side on the screen and pointing out the difference between how they're each performing an element would be very educational.