Gracie Gold's Triple-Triple-Triple

[macy]

And apparently, Gracie wants to do a Triple Axel someday. She practiced one on a harness a few days ago. (this is from her sister's YT channel):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-0sYGrI6Lk&feature=channel_video_title

i saw this the other day, it's HUGE. i'd love to see how it looks off the harness. i'm assuming pretty close.

 

[prettykeys]

^ Wow, that looks nice! But since I don't have first-hand experience with harnesses, I guess the question in my mind is, do they help pull up a skater a little and give them some support they wouldn't get without? Either way, I hope she is successful one day. It sails horizontally through the air...those are my favourite kind of 3A's.

 

[gkelly]

But since I don't have first-hand experience with harnesses, I guess the question in my mind is, do they help pull up a skater a little and give them some support they wouldn't get without?

Yes.

At the least, the harness will slow the skater's fall, for less risk of damage.

It can give a little extra air time.

With very tiny skaters, sometimes the coach can hold them in midair for much longer than an unassisted jump could remain airborne.

 

[Mathman]

Yep, she could do...
3Z/3T/3R
3F/3T
3S/3R
2A
2A
2Z (lol)

So really that combo just gives her an opportunity to add a 2Z as the next best point getting jump. Doesn't seem worth it when you think how winded she would be at the end of a program with that content.

And that's only six jumping passes, so for the seventh she would have to do another 2Lz (or for variety a 3F).

The judging system is just not designed to encourage a triple-triple-triple.

Actually, I don't mind that. IMHO jump combinations do not always add anything of value to a program and just look awkward. Like the skater is saying, OK the rules say i somehow have to muscle up a sloppy 2T at the end of my beautiful 3A, so here goes.

 

[MoonlightSkater]

And that's only six jumping passes, so for the seventh she would have to do another 2Lz (or for variety a 3F).

The judging system is just not designed to encourage a triple-triple-triple.

Actually, I don't mind that. IMHO jump combinations do not always add anything of value to a program and just look awkward. Like the skater is saying, OK the rules say i somehow have to muscle up a sloppy 2T at the end of my beautiful 3A, so here goes.

Combos often look awkward, but I think placed well in a program they can really be a highlight.

It wasn't a hard combo, but I remember Brian Boitano did a 3-2 combo in the holiday show that aired a couple of weeks ago, and it was well-timed, well-executed, and really punctuated the music. I remember thinking "that's how a combo should be integrated."

Of course, with the rules the way they are, the skaters have to put in combos whether or not they'll look good. But my point is that they can look good.

 

[gkelly]

And that's only six jumping passes, so for the seventh she would have to do another 2Lz (or for variety a 3F).

Nope, can't do a 3F -- that list already includes two 3T, two 3Lo (3R), and one 3F, so that would be repeating a third triple, not allowed.

The judging system is just not designed to encourage a triple-triple-triple.

True -- it doesn't allow for earning enough extra points to be commensurate with the difficulty of such an element.

Actually, I don't mind that. IMHO jump combinations do not always add anything of value to a program and just look awkward. Like the skater is saying, OK the rules say i somehow have to muscle up a sloppy 2T at the end of my beautiful 3A, so here goes.

Well, short program rules have always required a jump combination. How many men before 1998-99 had to put a 2T (or in 1998 a 2Lo) on the end of a beautiful 3A just to fill the SP requirements? (Because the solo axel had to be double and it was harder to do 3A immediately preceded by steps etc. than to put another jump on the landing.)

In long programs, they had to put some kind of jump on the end of one of two 3A (or any other repeated triples) to get them both to count. On rare occasions when the 3A landing was really bad, even a dinky 1T could serve that purpose.

And there must be at least one jump combination or sequence of some kind somewhere in the long program, also a rule of much longer standing than the IJS.

Of course the intention is for skaters to plan LP combinations that show off their best skills and enhance the program as a whole, e.g., by showing a variety of skills. But some skaters don't really care about the aesthetics as much as the athletic content. Others do care but can't always deliver their program as intended. Difficult content and beautiful execution rarely go together -- which is what makes it such a special occasion when they do.

 

[Mathman]

Nope, can't do a 3F -- that list already includes two 3T, two 3Lo (3R), and one 3F, so that would be repeating a third triple, not allowed.

Oops -- I meant a 2F.

For some reason I don't mind the combo requirement in the short program.

In the long program, I guess the idea is that every element should demonstrate a different skill, and you should not get full credit for doing the same thing twice, a la the original Elaine Zayak.

Still, I wouldn't mind if the LP rules were relaxed a little in this regard. Those three-jump combos that end in +2T+2Lo or +2T+2T do not look good because the skater usually comes to a complete stop before the combination is done; the last jump rarely has any outflow. A powerful 4T+3T or 3A+3T is great -- give 'em the old one-two punch! But when there is a scratchy landing on the first jump with a wimpy anticlimactic afterthought of a 2T -- they should be allowed to just say, "aw, forget it."

 

[gkelly]

In the long program, I guess the idea is that every element should demonstrate a different skill, and you should not get full credit for doing the same thing twice, a la the original Elaine Zayak.

Yeah.

Still, I wouldn't mind if the LP rules were relaxed a little in this regard. Those three-jump combos that end in +2T+2Lo or +2T+2T do not look good because the skater usually comes to a complete stop before the combination is done; the last jump rarely has any outflow. A powerful 4T+3T or 3A+3T is great -- give 'em the old one-two punch! But when there is a scratchy landing on the first jump with a wimpy anticlimactic afterthought of a 2T -- they should be allowed to just say, "aw, forget it."

They are allowed to just say "aw, forget it." And many of them do.

Not all skaters plan a three-jump combination. Of those who do plan one, they don't all execute it in every performance of the program.

Not all skaters plan three combinations or sequences. Of those who do, not all execute all three in every performance of the program.

Failing to execute planned combinations is usually because of flaws or failures of what would have been the first jump in the combo, so points are lost to negative GOE (and sometimes fall deductions) as well as to leaving out planned jumps. Even more points will be lost if leaving out a combo results in the second of two repeated jumps getting the 0.8 sequence multiplier. (Under 6.0, in theory the second repeated jump without combo would have been ignored and a deduction applied, but who knows exactly how any of the judges reflected that error in the scoring.)

Sometimes it's a result of choosing to play it safe in hopes of a cleaner performance overall.

Failing to plan a three-jump combo or to plan three combos/sequences can be seen as "not being COP savvy" and leaving points on the table. Or it can be a wise decision based on knowledge that the skater has a better chance of landing a solo jump cleanly than of landing a combo successfully. Better to plan the simpler jump pass and aim for positive GOE than to plan more jumps and risk losing points to negative GOE.

They have to decide how to balance the risks and rewards of trying harder elements that they can't count on landing perfectly every time. And each skater has to work with the skills that he or she actually has, not the skills of the best jumper in the world who sets the standard.

For skaters who can't do 3-3 combinations or three-jump combinations with flow, I'd like to see rules be more flexible to allow other ways to maximize their own skills to earn points. Reward good quality and/or difficult entries better with positive GOE. Allow skaters who don't have all the triples to leave out a jumping pass if they can earn more base points by replacing it with an extra spin or other non-jump element. Maybe consider allowing repeat triples combined not with another jump but with another kind of skating move -- e.g., specify difficult entries that skaters may use once in a program to fulfill the "repeated in combination" requirement.

But you're still going to get skaters who are able to do triple jumps but are not able to combine them with anything other than a 2T at the end. Do you really want to say that those skaters should not be allowed to repeat triples because the only way they can avoid simply doing the same thing twice is something you find boring or anticlimactic?

The (senior and junior) LP rules are that
-repeated triples or quads must be in combination or sequence at least one of the times they're executed
-maximum of 7 (ladies) or 8 (men) jump passes
-maximum of 3 combos or sequences
-combos can have two jumps, although one combo may have three jumps
-sequences can have unlimited number of jumps but earn only 80% of the point value of the two highest-value jumps

Given the Zayak rule (first bullet point above, true under 6.0 as well as IJS), if a skater wants to repeat a difficult jump, s/he must do it in combination at least one of those times. So the plan, under either judging system, would always be to include one good solo jump and one good combination (or two good combinations) of the repeated jump. But in practice it doesn't always work out that way, because competitors are challenging themselves to include program content at the limits of their ability, on a slippery surface. It's a rare and magical moment when they actually succeed.

If you want to see clean programs all the time, you want to see skaters with top-level skills performing programs with mid-level difficulty.

Or else let them all try their hardest stuff and wait to watch highlight reels of the competition after it's all over and the networks have kindly edited out all the performances that wouldn't meet your standards -- which in many competitions would end up being all of them.

As for the wimpy 2T tacked on after a so-so landing, sometimes it does happen as an afterthought because the combo was supposed to happen the first time the skater performed that jump, the first landing was not strong enough so the skater did say "aw forget it," and then when it came time to repeat the jump later in the program the landing was not much stronger or even weaker but the skater knew/eventually remembered he'd get no credit for it without that wimpy 2T.
E.g., http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyMrZOXhrtU
Also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH7eJ9eDQ0U but I can't get the latter part of the video to play through for me.

 

[dwiggin3]

i say let her develop emotionally at her own pace. Let her enjoy the process without strapping her with pressure and expectations. Apparently she didnt start skating till age 8. This is a marathon not a race. Hate to see skaters burnt out and overly criticised by the tender age of 18.

amen!!!!

 

[dwiggin3]

Hopefully training something this difficult won't lead to any injuries because, like gkelly said, it really won't allow her to do anymore triples and there isn't any combination bonus. It really is incredible to see but it scares me to think how practicing this combo will affect her body 5 years from now.

In this video, she does appear to have plenty of speed and distance but in video's that I've seen on the internet, I don't find her to have that much speed edge control. It may simply be an issue that her speed does not translate well to video. I know when I was practicing jumping passes, it was much easier to gain a lot of speed and distance but when I actually put them into a program, I slowed down significantly. Perhaps that was just me.

This lutz appears to have the correct edge but several that I've seen on utube look like she flutz's. I'd like to see both the take-off and the landing of the 3L up close to see if they're clean.

Despite my own tendencies to look at up-and-coming-skaters with a "glass half empty" view point, she does appear to have some talent. I hope she is allowed to develop at her own pace rather than being put on the "fast track" to disappointment.

 

[mskater93]

Dwiggin3: I DO skate with her. Her speed doesn't translate well on video, but even in program run throughs, she is FAST and has very good edging. She doesn't slow down significantly on jumps in her program. Go watch the IN videos from Mids. You can gauge the difference in speed between her and the rest of the girls in the event.

Her Lutz is off the correct edge. At worst, it's off the flat, you must have seen some video with an odd angle. She DID get hit for a lip a couple times, but that's been corrected as well. Her one coach, if you cannot attribute anything else to him, is an excellent Lutz technician. I leave the emoticon because when he gets a talented skater before puberty, he somehow teaches them to have big jumps which help them weather the puberty storm. Almost every one of his talented ladies who either quit due to injury/burn out or moved on that he taught before they started to grow have had BIG jumps.

 

[Mathman]

Do you really want to say that those skaters should not be allowed to repeat triples because the only way they can avoid simply doing the same thing twice is something you find boring or anticlimactic?

What I had in mind was that the rules could be changed to allow skaters to repeat one or two solo jumps, not in combination, and get full credit.

I do not have a strong opinion about that, though.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I am really excited to see her grow, and it's great that her coach and family support her in taking her time emerging into Seniors. Watching some more of her videos I noticed that:
1) She has relatively narrow hips. I imagine this helps tremendously when rotating triple jumps, and if she has already gone through her growth spurt she should be in good shape keeping her marvelous jumps.
2) Her speed and edge control look good to me. I think what sets her apart from the best senior ladies is keeping her upper body steady during stroking. That is something I see improving in the near future.
3) She interprets music well and takes her time executing moves, although she may telegraph her jumps a tad too much.

 

[Mrs. P]

So mskater93, have you seen Gracie do a 3A without the harness? How far along do you think she is with that jump?

 

[mskater93]

Mrs. P: Have not seen it, I suspect she's "dabbling" with it right now - mostly see her beating the programs into submission to be ready for Nationals. If the video is relatively recent and she was on the harness, it's relatively new with the coach I see her with a lot as he isn't a big proponent of working on the harness in general and typically does it ONLY when first introducing a concept. I suspect after Nationals (and hopefully JWs), they'll put a lot of time into it for Seniors. Her 2A technique is pretty sound (fall at Mids notwithstanding) and her height on all her jumps is good, so once she gets over the mental hurdle (omg, a 3A!!) it will likely come to her.

 

[koatcue]

Let's see if she participates in JW and if she does - where will she place among all these russian girls

 

[macy]

Let's see if she participates in JW and if she does - where will she place among all these russian girls

I think if she skates a clean short and long shell definitely give them a run for their money.

 

[Nadine]

She'll need that triple axel by the time Sochi comes round. I've already seen Elizaveta's, without the harness, and it was fabulous. Correct technique, no underrotation, no wrong edge take off, the right way, the russian way per usual for them.

That said, if things continue to go well with Gracie Gold over the next two years, I can see her being held up as the poster girl for doing it the Right Way. Which means taking your time, not rushing it, going from one level to the next at your own pace so that one gets the technique down pat, and isn't trying to be the "youngest ever" to do such & such, and then later on paying for it by being dinged for incorrect take off, edge, underrotation, et al.

We shall see...

 

[mskater93]

But where is Elizaveta's 3A in competition (which by the way, there is no such thing as a wrong edge take off on an Axel jump, just pre-rotated/under-rotated)? A lot of skaters can do things in practice or work on things in practice that never see the light of day competitively. I saw a former Junior National Ladies Champion working on quads in practice that were fully rotated. She never competed with them (and they were pretty consistent outside of her program). She practiced them in her programs fairly consistently and it was clear when she competed it wasn't going in. It would have helped her make a big splash in Seniors, landed or not. I've seen the practice video of Elizaveta, but I'll buy into it's consistency when it goes in the program and gets called more than 50% of the time, until then, it's a nice practice jump.

There is no such thing as "the Right Way". Each skater has his/her own path, timing, strengths, weaknesses and technical foibles. It takes a good coach and a skater who can take an honest inventory of themselves to be able to work with and through those things. Maybe Alissa and Carolina K will be held up as the poster children of someone who stuck with it through the hard times and made decisions that best suited her skating when the time came so she could be successful.

If Gracie is clean or near clean at Nationals, she's 99% likely to go to JWs. I keep saying "if" in posts because, while most of us at the rink expect she's going to go, it's not a complete given until she delivers in California. I think there's a very good chance she can hold her own (especially with how her scores matched up with no international experience - one of the top Junior scores this year and the only score that was better was from someone's SECOND event) and if clean could stand on the top step.

 

[jatale]

Also, let's not forget that Liza is only 14 years old and she has a tiny body, she is less than 5 feet tall!! If she still has some growth spurts coming that will change everything for her. Gracie is all grown up, so her body is not going to be playing games with her going forward. Liza also hasn't faced the emotional upheavals that young adulthood will bring her way, the adolescent brain changes a lot from 14 to 16 (Gracie's age) let alone to 18 when "adulthood" is just starting.