Great Edges

[emma]

I love this thread! Where would you rank Yuka Sato especially vis-a-vis Kwan or Gordeeva or Arawkawa (I get that Kostner and Irina both have different kinds of amazing skating feet...just trying to open up the discussion more, so you could compare to either of them too). And, what about kween Yuna? Her ice coverage and speed seem to be top tier for me, and I think so too with changing direction - but what about edge depth? really just curious and really love this thread!

 

[FlattFan]

Sorry but you actually picked Irina's worst spirals, not her peak. She couldn't control her edges well when she did Biellman spirals. Carolina wouldn't either if she attempted to do a true Biellman spiral. All she can is a sloppy catchfoot with her foot being held barely over her had. There is a difference between a simple catchfoot spiral and true Biellman spiral. Biellman is just way more difficult therefore it's harder to control the edge. Look at the example of Irina's spirals and footwork I gave and then compare. Irina had FANTASTIC edges, just as Kostner has. The footwork you chose isn't anywhere near her peak. While doing it, she was overwhelmed by emotions after delivering a technical content Carolina can't even dream of.

Her peak in term of dominance. She was the strongest skater during the 2005-2006 time frame.
She couldn't control her edges well and yet she did the Biellman spirals for 2 seasons. Either Irina is stupid, or the system rewarded the B spiral more. In either case, she sacrificed ease and effortless and edge control for harder spiral, and for what she put out, she's far inferior to Carolina's. Don't tell me what she "can" do. That's the problem with CoP. Everything is graded based on what a skater "can" do, and not what they did.

She was overwhelmed by emotions for 2 seasons? Every single competitions?

Show me one footwork sequence Irina had that was anywhere near as complex as Caro's.

Btw, Carolina had 2 3x3 in her LP. Landed more 3x3 in competitions. Landed fully rotated 3x3s all the time. Irina at her best barely cracked a 3x3. And under the current rule, would be 3x3<. How did she deliver a technical content Carolina can't even dream of? Seriously?
If anyone who had a technical content that Carolina can't even dream of, it would be Mao's if she had both the 3x3 and the 3A. Or miki with both 4S and 3x3.

 

[Spun Silver]

Those answers are illuminating-- thanks, guys. Watching on TV one hears very little of the skaters' blade sounds, just occasional aural closeups that seem kind of random to me.

 

[Mathman]

I once saw a television special where the announcer (I think it was Verne Lundquist) said about a skater, "It sounds so nice to hear the swish of the skates across the ice."

Commentator Peggy Fleming chimed in with, "The next skater is Yuka Sato. You won't hear that."

 

[Tonichelle]

I once saw a television special where the announcer (I think it was Verne Lundquist) said about a skater, "It sounds so nice to hear the swish of the skates across the ice."

Commentator Peggy Fleming chimed in with, "The next skater is Yuka Sato. You won't hear that."

I don't think Peggy worked for CBS?

 

[ivy]

I'm not a particular fan of Irina's or Carolina's - though I respect elements of both of their skating. Who's SS are better - can't say

Irina is an interesting case to me in this discussion. I think of her as a fast and powerful skater, but her speed coming from strength rather then precise, clean stroking. I associate her with her using her upper body to help accelerate. I do think she actually worked on this and got better over time. (disclaimer - this is from my memory, not research in videos).

I wonder how many elite level skaters improve their basic stroking and edges over their time as Sr or even Jr competitors. I'm sure the temptation is to work on your spins, jumps and other judged elements rather then making sure every connecting step and stroke is giving the most it can.

 

[Dragonlady]

Her peak in term of dominance. She was the strongest skater during the 2005-2006 time frame.
She couldn't control her edges well and yet she did the Biellman spirals for 2 seasons. Either Irina is stupid, or the system rewarded the B spiral more. In either case, she sacrificed ease and effortless and edge control for harder spiral, and for what she put out, she's far inferior to Carolina's. Don't tell me what she "can" do. That's the problem with CoP. Everything is graded based on what a skater "can" do, and not what they did.

You really cherry-picked the worst of Irina's skating when you linked to those clips, using only clips from 2005 and 2006 when she was affected by her illness. Yes she was dominant but only because the rest of the field was so weak. What is much more impressive is her early career where she racked up numerous medals skating in what could arguably be considered the strongest women's fields in figure skating history.

You ignored all of her Irina's great skating from 1996 to 2003, during which time she was at the peak of her abilities. She routinely turned in 7-triple programs, far more than Kostner has ever completed and Irina was first woman to land a 3Z/3L combination. She defeated Michelle Kwan at numerous events over the years, more than any other skater, in fact. Over the course of her career, Irina won 6 medals at Worlds, including 2 World Championships, 7 European Championships, two Olympic medals and 4 Grand Prix Finals, a record Carolina can only dream of matching. Irina accomplished this amazing record while competing against Michelle Kwan, Lu Chen, Maria Butraskya, Tara Lipinski, Sarah Hughes and Sasha Cohen.

Last but certainly not least, the only time Kostner ever finished ahead of Slutskaya in any of their head to head meetings was at 2004 Worlds, where Irina was completing for the first time after being stricken by the vascular disease that nearly ended her career. Irina Sluskaya and Michelle Kwan were two of the greatest women skaters to ever lace on skates. Kostner has yet to win a World Championship.

So don't try to tell me that Carolina is a better skater than Slutskaya because that dog won't hunt.

 

[jenaj]

Last but certainly not least, the only time Kostner ever finished ahead of Slutskaya in any of their head to head meetings was at 2004 Worlds, where Irina was completing for the first time after being stricken by the vascular disease that nearly ended her career. Irina Sluskaya and Michelle Kwan were two of the greatest women skaters to ever lace on skates. Kostner has yet to win a World Championship.

So don't try to tell me that Carolina is a better skater than Slutskaya because that dog won't hunt.

Agree, DL. Irina also had a presence on the ice that Carolina will never have.

 

[Vash01]

Skaters with great edging (in addition to those mentioned earlier):

Berezhnaya-Sikharulidze: Magnificent edging; quiet speed and power across the ice

Gordeeva-Grinkov: Quiet speed & power (like B&S), very efficient movement

Klimova-Ponomarenko: Deep edges, great speed and great control

Grishchuk-Platov: Amazing speed and deep edges

Alexander Abt: Wonderful edge quality (his problem was inconsistent jumps)

Robin Cousins

Yuka Sato

 

[Vash01]

"Irina couldn't control her edge most of the time. She always bobbled."

Flattfan, you could not be further from the truth........."Irina always bobbled"? Irina was not the most flexible skater in a spiral position, but she had excellent control over the edge and her edge was deep- in footwork, spiral, and in basic stroking. Your links mean nothing because I have watched Irina skate since she was 16. I have also watched Carolina since she was 15, which means many many competitions, not just a few select links.

Carolina has a lot of speed, but that does not always translate into better edges. Irina had excellent basic skating skills- speed, power, edges.

Carolina has improved a lot in the last two years as a competitor, but quite honestly she cannot hold a candle to Irina. She may have more speed, but that's about it, and Irina was never a slow skater, nor did she lack control over the edge. The only times i have seen her struggle was in 2004 when she was very ill (most skaters would have quit the sport at that point), and earlier around 1999 when she was struggling with her jumps (not edges) and missed making the Russian world team. She came back stronger than ever in 2000 though, with two 3-3 combinations.

 

[Vash01]

There's been some talk about skaters with great edges; those that glide silently across the ice and effortlessly generate speed. Chan, Kozuka, Kwan, Gordeeva have been mentioned.

Does anyone have insight on where this ability comes from? Is it early correct training, an internal sense of balance and rhythm, just a gift they're born with, a willingness to spend hours perfect crossovers and other basic strokes? At one time the Russian Pairs program seems to have focused strongly and successfully on this, so it does seem to be something that can be taught.

Since it has served Patrick so well, we see more skaters focus on this?

The Russian/USSR skaters used to spend years perfecting the basics, so no doubt many of the skaters with great speed, power, ability to control the edge are their characteristics. However, not all are equal, as everyone is different. Some have a unique gift of silent blades. The position of the blade is always perfect for these skaters. I believe it is a gift, because not everyone that works hard on it to the same extent has the same edge quality. The US skaters get into doing tricks too soon, and neglect the basics, so we don't always see those quiet blades.

 

[skateluvr]

Katia's edges are said to be silent. She is fast, balletic and her positions were perfect. It is a shame we could not watch this pair for years more. I have always felt that B&S were second to them, only because of Anton's little mistakes, their height difference and lack of connection(love) that made G&G so incredible to watch. Katia looked to Sergei all the time. It was beautiful. Katia was born to be this perfect, beautiful skater. Mao-Chan is like that, ethereal yet strong. Katia had it all. She still does. Lucky girl.

 

[Vash01]

Katia's edges are said to be silent. She is fast, balletic and her positions were perfect. It is a shame we could not watch this pair for years more. I have always felt that B&S were second to them, only because of Anton's little mistakes, their height difference and lack of connection(love) that made G&G so incredible to watch. Katia looked to Sergei all the time. It was beautiful. Katia was born to be this perfect, beautiful skater. Mao-Chan is like that, ethereal yet strong. Katia had it all. She still does. Lucky girl.

Elena made a lot more mistakes than Anton did, during their career. B&S were the fastest pair I have seen (Rodnina-Zaitsev were known to be very fast also, but I never saw them skate live). Elena-Anton, if you see them skate live, were absolutely beautiful. I saw them skate live around 10 times. At times I was in the 1st or 2nd row and it was beautiful to watch them just float over the ice, with beautiful lines and postures. They had more difficult moves in their programs (since they came after G&G), and more creativity which I liked. They did have very good connection. I don't think it's necessary for a pair to be in love to be great, and the height difference was same as G&G's. I have also seen G&G and Katia (solo) skate live and they too were great. I can't really choose between B&S and G&G. Both pairs (all 4 skaters) were magnificent skaters. Sadly B&S never got the respect they deserved. Your post just proves that for the millionth time.

 

[FlattFan]

You really cherry-picked the worst of Irina's skating when you linked to those clips, using only clips from 2005 and 2006 when she was affected by her illness. Yes she was dominant but only because the rest of the field was so weak. What is much more impressive is her early career where she racked up numerous medals skating in what could arguably be considered the strongest women's fields in figure skating history.

Again, show me when she did better footsteps, spirals than Carolina's.
I didn't cherry pick anything. I wasn't comparing her 2005-2006 to Carolina's bests. Carolina didn't get level 4 in any of the programs I linked.

You ignored all of her Irina's great skating from 1996 to 2003, during which time she was at the peak of her abilities. She routinely turned in 7-triple programs, far more than Kostner has ever completed and Irina was first woman to land a 3Z/3L combination. She defeated Michelle Kwan at numerous events over the years, more than any other skater, in fact. Over the course of her career, Irina won 6 medals at Worlds, including 2 World Championships, 7 European Championships, two Olympic medals and 4 Grand Prix Finals, a record Carolina can only dream of matching. Irina accomplished this amazing record while competing against Michelle Kwan, Lu Chen, Maria Butraskya, Tara Lipinski, Sarah Hughes and Sasha Cohen.

I did not. From 1996 to 2000, Irina was basically a second tier skater, vying for bronze. When she first started out, she was nothing like Carolina. She was what Alena Leonova is right now, which is tacky and gross. From 2001 to 2002, she got much better. But in term of dominance, 2005-2006 was her best years. She did not routinely turn in 7-triple programs. How many 7-triple programs did she do at worlds? 2? How many 7-triple at the Olympics? 0. Most of her 3x3 were URed anyway.

Last but certainly not least, the only time Kostner ever finished ahead of Slutskaya in any of their head to head meetings was at 2004 Worlds, where Irina was completing for the first time after being stricken by the vascular disease that nearly ended her career. Irina Sluskaya and Michelle Kwan were two of the greatest women skaters to ever lace on skates. Kostner has yet to win a World Championship.

I didn't say Carolina is a better skater. Read the thread again and maybe comprehend what others are saying first before going into a tirade. I said Carolina has better SS. That's all.

So don't try to tell me that Carolina is a better skater than Slutskaya because that dog won't hunt.

Don't tell me what I said.

 

[cosmos]

I love this thread! Where would you rank Yuka Sato especially vis-a-vis Kwan or Gordeeva or Arawkawa (I get that Kostner and Irina both have different kinds of amazing skating feet...just trying to open up the discussion more, so you could compare to either of them too). And, what about kween Yuna? Her ice coverage and speed seem to be top tier for me, and I think so too with changing direction - but what about edge depth? really just curious and really love this thread!

Yes, she shows great edge.

 

[Olympia]

Certainly Yuka Sato was always praised for her blade control and footwork. I don't know enough about YuNa in terms of quiet blades, but her speed always seemed good.

 

[skateluvr]

Don't get me wrong Vash01, B&S are my second fave Russian Pair with Rodnina Zaitsev third. B&S are one of the best of all time, imo. I loved Elena. Her story is amazing. You simply can't compare any pair to G&G. Not about his death, and her widow thing, as I know she moved on quickly to live and enjoy her life, but no one skated like them. Anton skated with such expression, but Elena often looked blank, frightened. There was a disconnect there. I used to think the head trauma affected her emotionally. I wish I knew all you do about these skaters.

 

[krenseby]

AI did not. From 1996 to 2000, Irina was basically a second tier skater, vying for bronze.

Just because a skater didn't dominate in a certain period doesn't mean that their skills in a certain area, like edging, were worse in that period.

Should Yuka Sato's great basics only count for when she was able to medal? Should Lucinda Ruh's spins only be taken into consideration based on how she was ranked at a given competition?

 

[Redstone]

I did not. From 1996 to 2000, Irina was basically a second tier skater, vying for bronze. When she first started out, she was nothing like Carolina. She was what Alena Leonova is right now, which is tacky and gross.

Uh-huh. Between the 96 and 00 Ira had three European golds, two World silvers and the GPF's gold and silver. That's not a second tier. For instance, in the first five seasons Carolina had one Worlds silver medal and two European golds - that's a second tier. As to programs, Carolina's neither were masterpieces, for the most time they were not masterpieces as well.
And calling Alena and Irina gross is not just unnecessary and rude but also strange coming from a Flatt's fan (Rachael is not gross or anything but she's not above criticism and gets to be called some hurtful names).

 

[sidwich]

I haven't seen either live in quite some time, I always thought both Brians (Boitano and Orser) had beautiful, deep edges and great speed. Those were great days for men's skating.