Hersch on Johnny

[Tonichelle]

Just to throw in something else. Johnny was not solely responsible for gaining three spots forthis years worlds. The rules are clear - TWO skaters from the country have to achieve a total score of 13 or less in order to qualify three skaters for the next year. Technically then it was Johnny and Stephen Carriere who won the spots. I don't see anyone arguing that Stephen should go.

Also my thoughts are that it was Daiskuke Takahashi adding that extra double toe to one of his final jumps that actually qualified the US for three spots! Maybe he should petition the USFSA for a bye

Ant

I can't tell you how much I love your posts

 

[Mathman]

The rule [Scott Hamilton is] quoting was a rule back in the 1980s (and don't know how long before, but I remember it from the 1980s). However, the rule was wholly different than what there is today.

Back then, it took a podium finish to get three skaters for the next year -- with the caveat that the medalist would be one of those three -- and you got two skaters by having a skater finish in, I think, the top 10 or 12, and one otherwise. Something like that, but a medalist was required for three the next year.

So, when Scott Hamilton won the world championship in 1981, the U.S. got three skaters for worlds in 1982 -- HOWEVER, one of those three HAD to be Scott Hamilton. Otherwise, the U.S. got only two. That third spot was for a "named skater," and that "named skater" was the previous year's medalist....

Actually, the more I think about it, that wasn't a bad system. It gave individual skaters more control over their own destiny, whereas the new system puts more power, relatively, in the hands of the national federations. (No wonder they changed it. )

The new system does, however, have the advantage (assuming this is a good thing?) of giving the strongest federations a chance for three places even when the reigning champ retires.

 

[Tonichelle]

I like the system as it stands now for the very reason that it doesn't pressure a skater to stay in so that their team can have 3. could you imagine how much more torn Jeff Buttle probably would have been?

 

[Mathman]

I don't see how Buttle would heve been under any particular pressure. Under the old system, it would be either Buttle and two other guys, or just the two other guys and Buttle stays home.

There would not be a third skater who would be cut out of the picture depending on Buttle's choice. The same two other guys would get to go no matter what buttle decided.

The only one that would be PO'ed would be Skate Canada -- the skaters would be fine either way.

 

[Dee4707]

And just to clarify, I'm not really specifically addressing the Weir issue here. But I absolutely do think judges "send messages." They may not be personally and individually trying to send a training message or a "you're in favor, you're not in favor" message to each and every skater, but I think the top skaters probably should see their results as critical/corrective feedback or, as the case may be, full support for whatever they've put out there.

No matter what anyone says, the posters here or the judges, Johnny is a great skater. I was so lost in his long program until Scott Hamilton let out one of his squeals and ruined the moment. Johnny has a beautiful long program. When Johnny skates, I get goose bumps.

Dee

 

[Tonichelle]

I don't see how Buttle would heve been under any particular pressure. Under the old system, it would be either Buttle and two other guys, or just the two other guys and Buttle stays home.

but that's what I mean... wouldn't he want to keep it at three? it might have been a deciding factor... especially if there were pressure from Skate Canada to keep the bragging rights of three skaters

 

[vlaurend]

What's cool about that is the symmetry and potential for poetic justice.

Last year, Johnny Weir did so well at Worlds that he secured a third spot for the U.S. As it turned out, that was the very thrid spot that allows Evan Lysacek to go to 2009 Worlds.

This year we hope that Lysacek and his teammates place well enough to secure a third spot for the Olympics. That could turn out to be the very third spot that Johnny Weir can grab at 2010 Nationals, and Johnny's off to Vancouver, thanks to Evan.

To set the record straight, that quote, "What is cool about that?" did not come from me, it came from rallycairn. My reply to your post was in total agreement with your point:

EXACTLY! Thank you! That's why we always need to send the 3 skaters who are skating best NOW, not the ones who skated best last season. Sending our top 3 men from Nationals not only gives the U.S. the best chance of placing well at Worlds and getting another 3 spots next year, but it also makes U.S. Nationals *mean* something. The last thing the USFSA needs is to have people start believing that Nationals doesn't mean anything.

 

[Mathman]

^ Aagh. So sorry. Wow, now I am making enemies of my friends. Next I'll be arguing with my own posts. ("That Mathman, what an idiot.")

 

[Daniel5555]

cosmos
I just provided a link and wrote what he said. I didn't say "it's wrong", it's just that there wasn't serious money.
It's hard to call it "payday" after that, but we can come to the conclusion that Mr. Hersh disliked the whole thing from the start, so it was going to criticize Johny anyway.

 

[Raatkirani]

If Johnny winning the bronze last year automatically secures him a spot for this year's Worlds then he shouldn't of even bothered to show up. The USFA could've announced that Johnny Weir has already secured a spot at Worlds (due to is bronze win last year), so every one else competing will be duking it out for 2 spots. Now how fair would that have been?

Based on the posts of those more knowledgable than me, that is precisely what he should have done. Sat it out (like Belbin and Agosto did, like many other skaters have done in the past), and then petition for a waiver, which more like than not, would have been approved. It would have been fascinating to see what the USFSA would have done had Weir skipped nationals. They probably would have given him the bye. Abbott would have definitely been named to the team, but I suspect that Brandon Mroz would have been left behind in favor of Lysacek. That would have reeked. I'm not a Lysacek fan--something about his lack of grace and his flailing arms really bother me, even though he is a good athlete--and I don't understand the love affair USFSA has with him. I would have loved the team to be Abbott, Mroz and Weir.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

^^^
He definitely should have done that in hindsight. I do think he wanted his title back and that's why he showed up. I think Evan, too, wanted to win to show that he could also have 3 gold nats. In effecdt, Jeremy was a spoiler all around.

It's a lot of work waiting for next year, but I am sure he will and skate fantastically.

 

[antmanb]

Based on the posts of those more knowledgable than me, that is precisely what he should have done. Sat it out (like Belbin and Agosto did, like many other skaters have done in the past), and then petition for a waiver, which more like than not, would have been approved. It would have been fascinating to see what the USFSA would have done had Weir skipped nationals. They probably would have given him the bye. Abbott would have definitely been named to the team, but I suspect that Brandon Mroz would have been left behind in favor of Lysacek. That would have reeked. I'm not a Lysacek fan--something about his lack of grace and his flailing arms really bother me, even though he is a good athlete--and I don't understand the love affair USFSA has with him. I would have loved the team to be Abbott, Mroz and Weir.

So to clarify - if it is Johnny's spot in jeopardy - the rules should be bent to accomodate him and if it's Evan's spot in jeopardy - the rules should be followed excluding him from a chance at worlds? Is that a fair summary of your proposition?

Ant

 

[MissIzzy]

So to clarify - if it is Johnny's spot in jeopardy - the rules should be bent to accomodate him and if it's Evan's spot in jeopardy - the rules should be followed excluding him from a chance at worlds? Is that a fair summary of your proposition?

Ant

When the world is unfair in one person's favor, you can't help but wish it would sometimes be unfair in the other person's favor, methinks.

 

[Jaana]

When the world is unfair in one person's favor, you can't help but wish it would sometimes be unfair in the other person's favor, methinks.

Well, generally speaking, perhaps the blinded fans of any skater and not liking somebody else, are perhaps not the best judges of what is fair and what isn´t, methinks.

 

[antmanb]

Well, generally speaking, perhaps the blinded fans of any skater and not liking somebody else, are perhaps not the best judges of what is fair and what isn´t, methinks.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I'm not a Lysacek fan--something about his lack of grace and his flailing arms really bother me, even though he is a good athlete--and I don't understand the love affair USFSA has with him. I would have loved the team to be Abbott, Mroz and Weir.

That's an opinion, and I respect opinions but I think one has a right disagree with opinions too.

I've always been a fan of Johnny since 2002 Nats when everyone was talking about Todd, Timmy and Michael. In my opinion, Johnny should have won that Nats for the sheer magic of his skating. However, 2009 Nats is a different story for me. How the decision to omit him is an accepted method by the USFS, not unlike Mark Mitchell in a previous decision. Mao should have gone to the 2006 Olys but the decision makers would not let her go. The Rules rule.

 

[Tonichelle]

Mao's situation doesn't really jive with what we have here, though...

there's no rule that says Johnny can't be named to the team. Tradition dictates he stay at home because he's not on the podium, not a rulebook.

 

[soogar]

As Scott Hamilton put it, there was always this rule that if you medaled in the worlds, that third spot was yours no matter what. Johnny Weir earned that third spot for himself.
He did well throughout the season and his previous results should have cemented his status.

.

That's bs. Usually the previous year's medalists are held up enough to be in the top 3 at Nationals and secure another trip to Worlds, however there have been skaters who have not returned to Worlds despite medals - Holly Cook is one of them. COP is not as easily manipulated as the old system. The other guys skated better than Weir.

The past few years Johnny has been skating on autopilot. He's had good performances but he hasn't really "grown" as an athlete or competitor. At the Olympic practices in 2002 he was practicing beautiful quad-triples and if memory serves me right I think he did a 4-3-3 that looked effortless. Years later he is still doing the same jump content, same spins and his skating seems as if it has lost some spark.

I think not making the national team will either serve to light a fire under him or be the straw that breaks the camel's back.