Hersch on Johnny

[Tonichelle]

nationals always has inflated scores.

 

[mememe]

Actually, I was surprised to hear Scott say that. He did not give any instances of that "rule" ever coming into play in the selection of the U.S. World team.

Has it ever happened that someone earns an extra spot the year before, then flubs the next years nationals, but was put on the team anyway in gratitude? Or is this "rule" just something that Scott made up on the spur of the moment.

Scott did not mention this rule when he was commenting on Brandon Mroz' or Evan Lysacek's skate. "Well, that was a good skate by Brandon -- too bad he can't go to Worlds because of the spot reserved for Johnny Weir."

Scott says so many things, it just made me wonder.

Scott is wrong.

The rule he's quoting was a rule back in the 1980s (and don't know how long before, but I remember it from the 1980s). However, the rule was wholly different than what there is today.

Back then, it took a podium finish to get three skaters for the next year -- with the caveat that the medalist would be one of those three -- and you got two skaters by having a skater finish in, I think, the top 10 or 12, and one otherwise. Something like that, but a medalist was required for three the next year.

So, when Scott Hamilton won the world championship in 1981, the U.S. got three skaters for worlds in 1982 -- HOWEVER, one of those three HAD to be Scott Hamilton. Otherwise, the U.S. got only two. That third spot was for a "named skater," and that "named skater" was the previous year's medalist. So, in 1984, Scott Hamilton won his final world championship, supposedly earning three spots for the U.S. at the next year's worlds. But, in 1985, the U.S. only sent two skaters to worlds, because Scott had retired, so the "named skater" spot was not used, since he, and only he, could fill that spot. Ditto in 1988, Boitano won the world title, earning a third spot, but HE was the "named skater," and so the next year, when he wasn't competing in "amateur" competition any more, the U.S. could actually send only two skaters -- then, if one finished on the podium, they could send three the next year -- as long as one was that "named skater" (in other words, the previous year's medalist).

The "finishing on the podium is the only way to get you three skaters" was still in force, I THINK, in 1993, since the U.S. could send only two men and two ladies to 1994 Olympics because no U.S. skater in ladies or mens finished on the podium in 1993. Shortly after that, I THINK, is when the change came and they started the adding-up-the-placements-of-X-number-of-a-country's-skaters to determine how many you get. The "named skater" thing may have changed before then -- I seem to remember something about that perhaps happening in the early 90s, so that a country could send three even if the medalist from the previous year wasn't going, but I could be wrong.

But whatever, Scott was WAY behind the times and was just plain wrong to intimate that Johnny should be named to the team because he "earned" it by medaling. That just isn't true. The U.S. got three spots because the combined finish of its top two finishers (it had three entrants last year) equalled 13 or less (in this case, 13, since Johnny finished third and Stephen Carriere 10th, with Jeremy Abbott 11th). Did him stepping up and grabbing that bronze medal help the U.S. get three spots? Sure, it did, because Carriere was 10th. But had he finished fourth and Carriere made that big step-up and finished ninth, the U.S. would still have got three spots, even had Johnny not been on the podium (and Stephen would probably have been the one that "did more" to get the spot -- he may still have been, as I can't remember if he made a move up or down to finish 10th -- if he made a move up from, say, 12th or 13th to finish 10th, he was really as much more more responsible for that third spot than Johnny). Had Johnny finished fifth or sixth, the U.S. could still have had that third spot by Carriere or Abbott finishing sixth or seventh or eighth. Rule 378, which talks about number of entries for each country at rules, does not indicate that medaling means anything at all except that you medal -- it does NOT give you a right to anything the next year.

Bottom line is, the rules today do not designate any one person as earning a spot in next year's championship for him- or herself -- a combined score earns unencumbered spots for your country. (Even if you only have one person, if that person finishes gold or silver, you get three the next year, and if they finish in the top 10 they earn two spot, BUT even in the case of finishing gold or silver to get three spots, or finishing in the top 10 to get two, there is NO designation from the ISU that one of those "extra" spots that the single performer earned the year before be given to that performer the next year. None. So while, technically, Michelle Kwan earned a two spots for the U.S. in 1994 when she was the only U.S. skater at worlds in the ladies event and finished, I think, 10th, she was not entitled to one of those two spots according to the rules.

The idea (at least as I see it) is that, while last year's strength-of-team determines how many spots you get, at least it no longer determines how well someone is skating. The old rule predetermined that whoever medaled last year was going to deserve to go to worlds the following year, and if that person wasn't available or wasn't good enough to make your team, they either should go anyway or nobody else was deserving to go. This one at least says everyone who goes should have to earn their spot in the year that they'll participate in worlds).

My feeling on Johnny? He didn't earn a spot this year, he hasn't taken care of himself very well and hasn't made good decisions. (At least, from reading his journal, it appears he doesn't eat very healthy and doesn't make very good decisions about taking care of himself -- this has nothing to do with him getting sick at a bad time -- that can happen to anyone -- but he certainly didn't give himself good odds to be healthy and/or get over illnesses he's been fighting all year.Frankly, I don't see how he expects himself to be in good shape for worlds -- and don't blame the committee for perhaps taking that into consideration, too). He skated at nationals, didn't do well, asked to be put on the team over others who skated better, the committee discussed it and denied the request -- he ought to go home, look at his decisions this year and where they led him, work hard on developing better eating habits, decide what he really wants to accomplish this next year and talk to some mature adults about how to achieve those goals, and then try to go all-out to reach those goals next year. This isn't the most important year, anyway. Let those who earned their way to worlds face the pressure of trying to make sure the U.S. gets three spots next year and take that time to get himself prepared to earn the top spot from the U.S. next year so he doesn't have to depend on how many spots there are for the Olympic team. That way, he has time to REALLY get over all this illness and be strong and better prepared for next year.

 

[Tonichelle]

thanks for the history lesson, mememe! sounds like Scott really does need to bone up on the rulebooks

before working for NBC has he ever been a commentator at nationals? I would assume it's been Dick Button from the start?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Johnny put the meaning of the C in the K&C. He knew he didn't do well, and I believe he understands the consequences.

What if Mroz folds up next year, should we send him to the next Worlds regardless? I believe many fans who support the present decision of the USFS would say no.

We know the winner of Nats automatically goes to Worlds, but Is there any written rule about silver and bronze results for choosing the Team?

If Johnny were to go instead of Lyacek, the pressure on Johnny would be tremendous. After all, Evan is a Worlds bronze medalist, too.

 

[luvsasha]

Johnny partly got third at Worlds because the two skaters behind him screwed up (Daisuke and Stephane). He was very lucky to get third. Is it ok to say that? Sure, kudos for him to steping up to the plate, but it's not like he had this brillant skate, and blew off the roof.

I think the USFSA was being incredibly fair and for once, unbiased: Jeremy 1, Brandon 2, Evan 3 go to worlds. That's how it's always been, except for those who withdraw and petition (yes, that is how Belbin and Agosto got their spot, but i don't get why people are so fed up with a couple who has done so much for US dance and who have represented the US very well)
Johnny thought he was ready and he wasn't. If he withdrew from Nationals, he would have a ticket to LA right now.

I know many people are disappointed because they like Johnny, but isn't it good that there wasn't favortism?

 

[sillylionlove]

After looking at the men's skate....honestly in my opinion the only person that deserves to go to world's is Jeremy. He is the only one that skated well this season and a Grand Prix Final champion is pretty good in my book. Evan was subpar this season as was Johnny!! Neither skated up to the standard that they could have and actually have done in the past.

I remember at the beginnig of the season there was a thread on here that was with the topic of is Johnny washed up or something like that. I don't think that he is washed up but he really needs to decide if he wants to compete or just skate for the fans (ala his appearance in Korea at a show). It seems to me from reading his journals that he really appreciates skating for the fans...maybe this is the road he should take, it's up for him to decide. He has a few months to think this over now that his season is done.

I bet come August or September we will be having this same conversation if not about Johnny, then about Evan or someone else.

 

[Mathman]

Meme, Wow, thanks for the post. (I can't believe I read the Whole Thing! )

In that case, though, I think I am willing to cut Scott a little slack. He may have been trying to say, "back in the day a skater used to be able to earn his own spot, maybe the USFSA should take the spirit of the old rule into account in their deliberations."

The cool thing is, Lysacek, Abbott and Mroz will now try to reach the podium and secure a spot next year -- for Johnny Weir.

 

[ManyCairns]

I guess I am just naive. I don't think the USFSA judges are in the business of sending messages. What i think is, Abbott skated the best, Mroz the second best, and Lysacek the third best.

Yes, and Lysacek was the best last year , and your government is always looking out for your best interests, and there's lovely waterfront land in AZ I've got to sell you. This particular result seemed fair, but to think the judges don't ever send messages or play favorites does seem naive, actually.

The cool thing is, Lysacek, Abbott and Mroz will now try to reach the podium and secure a spot next year -- for Johnny Weir.

What is cool about that? I tend to think there's something to letting a former medalist have an automatic slot. It's pretty comparable to skaters with certain results being able to skip sectionals and so on and go straight to nationals. Yes, it may give them one year of an extra advantage, but if they didn't consistently perform, they'd be right back to having to earn a spot the next year.

But the USFSA is always full of bs contradictions. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it.

Sadly, not everyone. People seem to want to think in black and white terms, such as, if you suggest that perhaps there might be a lack of motivation behind Kimmie's decision not to compete at nationals, that's tantamount to calling her a liar. Hardly. She's not going to come out and say, "I'm not up to it this year because of all the emotional hard knocks and struggles" but if she has a borderline injury, in a great year she might decide to go for it, whereas in a really, really bad year she might decide to capitalize on the injury (as in, not ignore it or try to skate through it) and latch on to it as a reason not to put one more bad result out there in front of the world. That's NOT saying Kimmie is "lying" about her injury. It's saying that circumstances and people and life struggles are complicated, and it's reasonable to wonder, just question or consider, if there may be more going on than what is on the surface. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. But many times it's more.

Similarly, I don't think all the judges get together and decide a final result 1,2,3 and on down the line. Though even that has probably happened in the past, at least according to claims by former competitors! But with judges and officials attending practices, having lunches and buffets and receptions, you better believe that, unless it is completely UNLIKE every other group/social human endeavor, talk goes around and the judges probably have a pretty good sense of who the federation would just love to see have a good result -- but only if they skate well and deserve it, of course [cough, cough]. Meaning, the judges can't go too far out of line and make obviously outrageous results happen, but they can nudge their marks one way or another. They probably don't always do that, they probably don't do that even very much of the time. But consciously or unconsciously, I'd be very surprised if skating judges aren't influenced by social factors like the expectations and hopes of their federations, who's popular, skating order, etc., etc. They'd have to be superhuman not to be.

All pigs are equal, but some are more equal than others. Come on, folks, that really is how the world works. We try to make things as fair as we can, but in real life, that doesn't happen nearly as often as we would wish.

And just to clarify, I'm not really specifically addressing the Weir issue here. But I absolutely do think judges "send messages." They may not be personally and individually trying to send a training message or a "you're in favor, you're not in favor" message to each and every skater, but I think the top skaters probably should see their results as critical/corrective feedback or, as the case may be, full support for whatever they've put out there.

As much as Abbott is great skater, i think his FS at the national doesn't deserve 154+ score. Both his TES and PCs score are inflated. His skating is no where near the caliber he deliver at the GPF. All of his jumps are tight, some stumble and his last combo 2A+3T is clearly underrotated. But the performance of the night is mroz. hope he can improve and keep his quad.

I wonder if these things you've pointed out about his technique contribute to some of the inconsistent results he's had in the past? Has he gotten UR calls a lot in the past?

Oh, and it just occurred to me, I think that inflated score was a "message" to Abbott that he's now considered a top U.S. man. Just as I think Wagner's score for her LP was a bit of a gift, and sort of one way she could receive the feedback that, despite her messing up in the SP, the second she puts it all together, the scores come right back up again.

 

[yelyoh]

Johnny's program have gotten thinner in terms of jump content and and his PSC scores have been slipping a bit in international comps. As I've said before he seems to be skating not to lose rather than to win. I think he needs time to rethink about how to be competitive.
He also needs to start eating better and taking better care of himself.
He is still a beautful skater.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

and your government is always looking out for your best interests, and there's lovely waterfront land in AZ I've got to sell you.

The USA Government has never cared about figure skating or any sport for that matter. However, the gold medal skaters at the Olympics will receive an invitaton to a luncheon at the White House along with other gold medal winners in those Olympic competitions. I'm not at all concerned that there will be no White House luncheon for the figure skaters.
We have to keep Bode Miller from going out at night and gamboling. ;[/QUOTE]

 

[Enero]

If Johnny hadn't been responsible for the extra spot on the world team, I would have never even considered for a minute that he should be on it this year based on his Nats results. But the fact is he did earn that third spot, so regardless of his performance, he should have been named to the team.

I get that you love Johnny and want him to succeed, but what I don't get is this sense of entitlement to a Worlds spot. Yeah he won the bronze last year which earned the US men an extra spot but so what. That's his job as a skater for the US skating team, team being the operative word here. Yes the skaters want to be successful in their own right, but when they skate at Worlds IMO they are also skating for the US Figure Skating team. Meaning, if they decide to retire the following year or have a bomb Nationals (ala Johnny) this year, then they've done their job for the team (and the USFA) by giving the US more chances to succeed at an international competition which will only help the USFA, an organization which they have no doubt benefited from skating under during their career.

If Johnny winning the bronze last year automatically secures him a spot for this year's Worlds then he shouldn't of even bothered to show up. The USFA could've announced that Johnny Weir has already secured a spot at Worlds (due to is bronze win last year), so every one else competing will be duking it out for 2 spots. Now how fair would that have been?

 

[Tonichelle]

that's true... Jeff Buttle did the job and landed three spots for Worlds for Canada... he's not going to be there... sometimes that's just how it is. Yes, it was by his choice - but Johnny chose to take his chance and skate and not just submit a bye

 

[vlaurend]

The cool thing is, Lysacek, Abbott and Mroz will now try to reach the podium and secure a spot next year -- for Johnny Weir.

EXACTLY! Thank you! That's why we always need to send the 3 skaters who are skating best NOW, not the ones who skated best last season. Sending our top 3 men from Nationals not only gives the U.S. the best chance of placing well at Worlds and getting another 3 spots next year, but it also makes U.S. Nationals *mean* something. The last thing the USFSA needs is to have people start believing that Nationals doesn't mean anything.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Johnny partly got third at Worlds because the two skaters behind him screwed up (Daisuke and Stephane). He was very lucky to get third. Is it ok to say that? Sure, kudos for him to steping up to the plate, but it's not like he had this brillant skate, and blew off the roof.

(snip)

II know many people are disappointed because they like Johnny, but isn't it good that there wasn't favortism?

That's so true, and Dai and Stephane had to face up to the fact that they skated poorly. I think Johnny did too as one could see in the K&C. It is his ardent fans who will not accept the ways of the Sport. Well, that's the way the cookie crumbles.

Indeed, there was no favoritism in the Sport but his overscored LP was there to help him rise to the occasion. He didn't. But Mroz did, and he was not a favorite.

 

[Daniel5555]

skateaug

It was a charity show but Johnny got paid for it. Hersh asked about it during icenetwork conference call.

Oh, really?

What Hersh asked was actually a rude question by itself. Johny answered that he came to that show because of the promise that he made to Yuna, and that he didn't get any big money from this. After that he said, that generally the figure skating is not a profession where most people earn a lot, so figure skaters have to catch every opportunity they can, but that was unrelated at all to that show.

The fact that after this answer Hersh wrote about a "payday" is just a proof that he is a perfect *******.

I'm sorry for writing this, but that's just the truth.

Here is the link where you can listen the whole conference: http://web.servicebureau.net/conf/meta?i=1113080163&c=15586&m=was&u=/w2.xsl

The interesting part starts at 10:25.

 

[Hsuhs]

I'm sorry for writing this, but that's just the truth.

Me too sorry! Reg you writing the truth.

 

[Mathman]

The cool thing is, Lysacek, Abbott and Mroz will now try to reach the podium and secure a spot next year -- for Johnny Weir.

What is cool about that?

What's cool about that is the symmetry and potential for poetic justice.

Last year, Johnny Weir did so well at Worlds that he secured a third spot for the U.S. As it turned out, that was the very thrid spot that allows Evan Lysacek to go to 2009 Worlds.

This year we hope that Lysacek and his teammates place well enough to secure a third spot for the Olympics. That could turn out to be the very third spot that Johnny Weir can grab at 2010 Nationals, and Johnny's off to Vancouver, thanks to Evan.

 

[cosmos]

skateaug

Oh, really?

What Hersh asked was actually a rude question by itself. Johny answered that he came to that show because of the promise that he made to Yuna, and that he didn't get any big money from this. After that he said, that generally the figure skating is not a profession where most people earn a lot, so figure skaters have to catch every opportunity they can, but that was unrelated at all to that show.

The fact that after this answer Hersh wrote about a "payday" is just a proof that he is a perfect *******.

I'm sorry for writing this, but that's just the truth.

Here is the link where you can listen the whole conference: http://web.servicebureau.net/conf/meta?i=1113080163&c=15586&m=was&u=/w2.xsl

The interesting part starts at 10:25.

It is hardly imaginable for YuNa not to pay a top skater who flied so long to Seoul on Chirstmas. Although it was a charity show, he deserved some reward, I believe. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[antmanb]

Just to throw in something else. Johnny was not solely responsible for gaining three spots forthis years worlds. The rules are clear - TWO skaters from the country have to achieve a total score of 13 or less in order to qualify three skaters for the next year. Technically then it was Johnny and Stephen Carriere who won the spots. I don't see anyone arguing that Stephen should go.

Also my thoughts are that it was Daiskuke Takahashi adding that extra double toe to one of his final jumps that actually qualified the US for three spots! Maybe he should petition the USFSA for a bye

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Last year, Johnny Weir did so well at Worlds that he secured a third spot for the U.S. As it turned out, that was the very thrid spot that allows Evan Lysacek to go to 2009 Worlds.

This year we hope that Lysacek and his teammates place well enough to secure a third spot for the Olympics. That could turn out to be the very third spot that Johnny Weir can grab at 2010 Nationals, and Johnny's off to Vancouver, thanks to Evan.

It's not unusual for a competitor to podium at a competition, and allow one or two more national competitors for the following year. I am sure there are many examples. The only one I can think of is Sasha allowing Kimmie to skate in 2006. But I am sure there are many more.

I, for one, do not believe the present team will podium but I do think between the 3of them, that they will earn 13 points for 2010, The 2010 Nationals will give Johnny another chance to podium at Nats and go on to the Olys and if he wants, the Worlds.

FANS OF JOHNNY; IT'S NOT THE END OF THE WORLD.