Hersh on Plushenko/Russian Natls Scoring

[janetfan]

Here are comments from Hersh about Russian Natls and Plushenko's scores:

"Just what a joke the new scoring system in figure skating has become was apparent in the scores that judges gave 2006 Olympic champion Evgeny Plushenko at the recent Russian Championships.

Plushenko got 100.09 points in the short program -- nearly 10 points more than the best ``official'' score in history -- despite a performance he called ``far from perfect,'' with a flawed landing on a triple lutz and his usual weak, lugubriously slow spins. Then he got 171.50 -- which would be No. 2 on the all-time list -- for a free skate with five clean triple jumps (and a quad), more poor spins (he risks being arrested for loitering on the combination spin) and a lot of posing.

It makes no difference that scores at national events are not considered for the all-time lists. Making a mockery of them creates a mess where other national judges feel compelled to boost their skaters by giving equally ludicrous scores.

In his comeback after a three-year absence, Plushenko has skated only in Russia (two domestic, one international event) and received over-inflated marks every time. It will be interesting to see what kind of scores he gets at the European Championships later this month in Talinn, Estonia."
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This is from his recent Olympic preview blog.
He had nothing to say about Sasha......and whether she will show up at Natls.

 

[museksk8r]

:sheesh: Well, if Hersh was scoring Cohen, her marks would have eclipsed Plushenko's, so what? Inflated Nationals scoring in every country has very little to do with reality. What big deal is it and who is it hurting if Plushenko is overscored at his National Championships? As long as he performed better than everyone else in that event and got those scores, then I don't see what the problem is. Now, it would be totally different if he were held up with inflated scoring like that at an international event like Europeans or Olympics when other very competent skaters performed similarly to him; however, I don't see that happening, particularly a score in the 100s or even in the 90s. Now it's not like it was in 2006 and the leadup to the Olympics when Evgeni was the clearly dominant skater in the mens' discipline on the international scene. The judges would clearly have some explaining to do if this were to happen at the Vancouver Olympics.

 

[Hsuhs]

Nats scores inflation is not what bothers me, what bothers me is the rumor I read on the Russian fso that Igor BICH

http://news.goldskate.ru/SEG021OF.HTM

will be serving as tech again in the Olys mens events. I smell skandal.

 

[i love to skate]

Here is Beverley Smith's take on it:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/blog...udging-questions-than-answers/article1413419/

 

[Medusa]

Here is Beverley Smith's take on it:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/blog...udging-questions-than-answers/article1413419/

Wait, Takahashi is the son of a hair-stylist?

That was by far the most interesting part of the entire article.

This is a ridiculous piece of writing, across the pond they are setting themselves up for the scandal and drama that will ensue if European skaters will win among dance, men and also possibly pairs. The author is also manipulating some facts there. She should have mentioned the enormous amounts of choreography Takahashi has in the first minute of his freeskate and the very creative jump layout.

Am I angered by the manipulation of scores that is possible, especially at Nationals? Of course. Do I think that it was excessive at Russian Nationals? Yep. Do I think it's Armageddon? Nope.

 

[evangeline]

Wait, Takahashi is the son of a hair-stylist?

Explains a lot; Daisuke has amazing hair



As for the over-scoring at Russian Nationals, Plushenko's scores were ludicrous but it's not like this is anything new or that Plushenko is the only dubiously-marked skater at Nationals. For instance: see the fat marks Stephane Lambiel got at Swiss Nationals this year with his watered-down jump content, or US tech callers ignoring Ashley Wagner's flutz at past Nationals

 

[Blades of Passion]

I think we should stop linking Phil Hersh articles (at least in their own thread). His writing is either useless or a repeat of things we are already talking about on the forum.

 

[schiele]

Nats scores inflation is not what bothers me, what bothers me is the rumor I read on the Russian fso that Igor BICH

http://news.goldskate.ru/SEG021OF.HTM

will be serving as tech again in the Olys mens events. I smell skandal.

OMG, mistakenly I added a T to his surname there while reading the post and thought that's what you were calling him..
You smell scandal cos he will undoubtedly penalize Evan's 3A or what? Here come pre-olympic conspiracy theories..

 

[i love to skate]

Wait, Takahashi is the son of a hair-stylist?

That was by far the most interesting part of the entire article.

This is a ridiculous piece of writing, across the pond they are setting themselves up for the scandal and drama that will ensue if European skaters will win among dance, men and also possibly pairs. The author is also manipulating some facts there. She should have mentioned the enormous amounts of choreography Takahashi has in the first minute of his freeskate and the very creative jump layout.

Am I angered by the manipulation of scores that is possible, especially at Nationals? Of course. Do I think that it was excessive at Russian Nationals? Yep. Do I think it's Armageddon? Nope.

Why is it a ridiculous piece of writing? What exactly was wrong in this article? It seems to me everything was pretty accurate. Her main point is that this type of marking better not happen at the Olympics because the sport will not recover. Is that not a good point to make? Also, you seem to think there is a conspiracy against European skaters here in Canada....why is that?

 

[chuckm]

Bich will be one of two technical specialists. What will be more interesting is who will be the technical Controller. If there's a dispute between the two TSs, the TC breaks the tie.

According to the rules, the TSs and the TC must be from three different countries. Bich is Russian, so the TC can't be Russian---but the TC could be from a former SSR.....

 

[Medusa]

Why is it a ridiculous piece of writing? What exactly was wrong in this article? It seems to me everything was pretty accurate. Her main point is that this type of marking better not happen at the Olympics because the sport will not recover. Is that not a good point to make? Also, you seem to think there is a conspiracy against European skaters here in Canada....why is that?

This article is definitely an opinion piece and written like that. Mrs. Smith didn't want to write an informative, critical article about something - she just wanted to get her point across.

You can see that in the way she utilises Takahashi and Plushenko; mostly pointing out Takahashi's strong points and Plushenko's weak points. She criticises Plushenko's spins, but leaves out Takahashi's spins when she talks about him - and there is a very good reason for that; these days Takahashi's spins are shaky at best and not really that much superior to Plushenko's. She omits facts like Dai's lack of transitions in the beginning of the program, while at the same time emphasising Plushenko's lack of transitions. Plushenko landed a Triple Axel towards the end of his program, something rarely done these days - that is also not mentioned.

But what I most hate about this article is that it sounds like a threat. She is threatening the judges, the ISU and I don't know who else - that if the Olympics are not marked how she wants them to be marked and how she thinks the fans / TV population want them to be marked - it is going to be the end of the sport. And yeah, I find that ridiculous.

 

[seniorita]

lol, maybe it is not the right time to mention it, but after all the articles you had posted of hersh, from his writing all this time somehow i thought he is a woman journalist

 

[i love to skate]

This article is definitely an opinion piece and written like that. Mrs. Smith didn't want to write an informative, critical article about something - she just wanted to get her point across.

You can see that in the way she utilises Takahashi and Plushenko; mostly pointing out Takahashi's strong points and Plushenko's weak points. She criticises Plushenko's spins, but leaves out Takahashi's spins when she talks about him - and there is a very good reason for that; these days Takahashi's spins are shaky at best and not really that much superior to Plushenko's. She omits facts like Dai's lack of transitions in the beginning of the program, while at the same time emphasising Plushenko's lack of transitions. Plushenko landed a Triple Axel towards the end of his program, something rarely done these days - that is also not mentioned.

But what I most hate about this article is that it sounds like a threat. She is threatening the judges, the ISU and I don't know who else - that if the Olympics are not marked how she wants them to be marked and how she thinks the fans / TV population want them to be marked - it is going to be the end of the sport. And yeah, I find that ridiculous.

Well of course it's an opinion peice - it's her blog! She is saying that she hopes that the Olympics do not show elevated marking and that biases are kept to a minumum. Don't you want the Olympics to be judged this way? How is that a threat? That's how judges are supposed to judge!

 

[Medusa]

Well of course it's an opinion peice - it's her blog! She is saying that she hopes that the Olympics do not show elevated marking and that biases are kept to a minumum. Don't you want the Olympics to be judged this way? How is that a threat? That's how judges are supposed to judge!

The question to me is how does she define bias? Is it biased judging when Joubert or Plushenko win the SP with a clean program and Quad over an artiste like Abbott or a technician with exceptional fine motor skills like Chan - without Quads but also clean programs?

 

[chuckm]

Smith sees Plushenko as a threat to Canada's Patrick Chan and she's implying that if Plushenko wins, it will be a huge scandal.

Anyway, the Canadian skaters will be on home ice and there's a benefit there. Look at Rochette's FS score at Skate Canada: she got PCS scores in the 8s for a performance with lots of mistakes and doubled jumps. Chan got the highest PCS score at SC for a SP marred by a fall and two botched spins.

We haven't seen the Nationals marks for Chan and Rochette yet, but you can be sure they will be very, very high even if one or both doesn't skate his/her best.

Please. Let's see the Olympic skates and scores before declaring that the sky is falling.

 

[Hsuhs]

Wait, Takahashi is the son of a hair-stylist?

That is a common knowledge, Medusa! Daisuke's mom is indeed a hair-stylist, been one for years.

You smell scandal cos he will undoubtedly penalize Evan's 3A or what?

Nope, it's not how I smell it. It worries me that they are trusting something as important as mens to that person's impaired (IMO) judgement.

You can see that in the way she utilises Takahashi and Plushenko; mostly pointing out Takahashi's strong points and Plushenko's weak points.

Hah! I'm growing to like Bev! She's Dai's uber, just like me, yay!

 

[i love to skate]

The question to me is how does she define bias? Is it biased judging when Joubert or Plushenko win the SP with a clean program and Quad over an artiste like Abbott or a technician with exceptional fine motor skills like Chan - without Quads but also clean programs?

I think she is talking about overwhelming biases or "scandals". It is human nature to have biases towards skaters, some we love, some we hate, etc. It is the same for judges. However, the marks Plushenko received were way too high - I think everyone can agree on that - even he said it.

If the scenerios you describe listed above happen, the results would be debated and you could make a case for it either way. I think the overwhelming biases comes in when you get Plushenko breaking a world record by over 7 points (?)with a mistake on a jump and when he received 9s for transitions with a program filled with crosscuts.

ETA:

Smith sees Plushenko as a threat to Canada's Patrick Chan and she's implying that if Plushenko wins, it will be a huge scandal.

Funny, I don't see Chan's name mentioned in the article at all so I don't see how this is about Patrick. Also, Dai is a very serious threat for a medal in Vancouver as well - so if she is knocking down Plushenko because he is a threat, why wouldn't she be knocking down Dai too?

 

[seniorita]

Well of course it's an opinion peice - it's her blog! She is saying that she hopes that the Olympics do not show elevated marking and that biases are kept to a minumum. Don't you want the Olympics to be judged this way? How is that a threat? That's how judges are supposed to judge!

my thought is that she singled out a skater to build around him a point, it would have been better to refer to the incident of overmarking at russian nationals and expand her point regardless of a skater, because it looks like all the bias in Olys might happen to favor him, which is funny because I dont think everybody is eager to give him a medal, I would say the opposite.

I wonder if she would have written the same article has plushenko not competed there...cause as far as I remember the overscoring of RN was also last year for example but nobody worried about champion voronov being overscored internationally and I didnt see articles jumping out like rabbits. And this year Voronov skated better in sp than Plush, why she doesnt thing his 95 points will be a threat?

Too much fuss in my opinion cause everybody knows these marks were ridiculous and skaters wont get them internationally, plus these articles look like it is a brand new info in the skating world or they just discovered america.

 

[chuckm]

Of course Smith isn't going to mention Chan, because Chan's one appearance this season (at SC) was a disaster because of his injury.

She used Takahashi as a comparison with Plushenko because Russian and Japanese Nationals occurred in the same week. Both men were overscored. But their scores mean nothing because they were Nationals. Most people get that. Smith doesn't.

 

[oxade21]

It's more than a month to the actual competition and NA media is already screaming "wuzrobbed". God help us in February.

I suggest we should just hold two separate World events- one exclusively for NAs and one for European and Asian athletes.

What a bunch of whinys.