How do you see the future for the quad?

[louisa05]

That sounds like broken hips, bones, and ligaments.

Yeah.

There is a limit to what the human body can handle. If quads were easy, we would have seen them in quantity by now. They seem to be pushing up against that limit. Even the most consistent jumpers miss the quads more than any other element. And then there is Goebel--perhaps exhibit A in why we haven't seen too many men doing programs with multiple quads over a long period.

 

[gkelly]

What I would hope as the sport advances and more skaters are able to execute at least one quad fairly consistently is that quads will become more integrated into the choreography and flow of the program rather than standing out as "This is the time when I set up my really difficult jump."

I also wouldn't mind if there were a separate competition or separate competition phase designed to allow skaters to show off cutting-edge jump content that's too difficult, too risky, to include in a complex program. Some of the skaters would then move from having elements they can only do in the jump contest to becoming confident enough with those elements to include them in the programs as well.

 

[Mathman]

That sounds like broken hips, bones, and ligaments.

No doubt. But that will not stop young guns from doing it anyway.

Would be nice to see at least 4T+4T+SEQ...

But the BV is only 16,48... I think it is too low for taking the risk.

It's not so clear that this sequence would be any easier than the combo. The problem in both cases would be to maintain enough speed on the landing of the first jump. A 4T+4T combination is worth 20.6 base value.

By the way, I just looked it up and a quad flutz is worth 9.5.

 

[noskates]

What I would hope as the sport advances and more skaters are able to execute at least one quad fairly consistently is that quads will become more integrated into the choreography and flow of the program rather than standing out as "This is the time when I set up my really difficult jump."

I also wouldn't mind if there were a separate competition or separate competition phase designed to allow skaters to show off cutting-edge jump content that's too difficult, too risky, to include in a complex program. Some of the skaters would then move from having elements they can only do in the jump contest to becoming confident enough with those elements to include them in the programs as well.

I still think too much emphasis is put on this jump. Agree that it should be integrated into the choreography and not the focal point. I see nothing but young skaters ruining their knees, their hips, their backs, and limiting the length of their career because of injuries from the repeated attempts at landing these difficult jumps. I think there are skaters that seem to throw them at will - Javi, Voronov, Kovtun, etc. and then there are those that struggle with them repeatedly and ruin otherwise perfectly nice programs.

 

[gkelly]

I agree that number of rotations in the air is not the only thing that makes for difficult programs. I do think it is important to make it clear to the public how much more difficult it is to skate a complex program than a program with simple stroking in basic patterns, that sometimes programs without quads are more difficult overall than those with.

While acknowledging that quads are indeed very difficult as jumps go.

We shouldn't expect everyone to do quads any more than we should expect everyone to do spread eagles or Biellmann spins. Some bodies just aren't built for it and it's not worth skaters ruining their bodies trying to force constantly train skills that they're never going to master. But they won't always know that it will be impossible to learn a given skill until they give it a good try.

Different skaters with different strengths will build their difficulty in different ways and be rewarded in different parts of the scoring. That doesn't make one way better than another.

How to appropriately reward failed attempts at high-difficulty high-risk moves is a whole other debate that we've had here quite often.

 

[QMATTERS]

Here is my take about the quad. Is it worth it? I know there is a long list of notable men who got their bodies wrecked practicing and competing with this jump -- Yagudin, Plushenko, Stojko, Goebel and Browning -- are a few I can name right now. I don't want to lose Jason Brown for that. He has been a skater I have been looking for. He has quality skating and a great attitude. When I see the attempted quad, and it is not done well, I lose interest in the program because I know that there will be other mistakes coming. The skater is human. I prefer a program that flows and to admire. I hope you understand what I am saying.

 

[Mathman]

Here is my take about the quad. Is it worth it? I know there is a long list of notable men who got their bodies wrecked practicing and competing with this jump -- Yagudin, Plushenko, Stojko, Goebel and Browning -- are a few I can name right now. I don't want to lose Jason Brown for that. He has been a skater I have been looking for. He has quality skating and a great attitude. When I see the attempted quad, and it is not done well, I lose interest in the program because I know that there will be other mistakes coming. The skater is human. I prefer a program that flows and to admire. I hope you understand what I am saying.

Welcome, QMATTERS. Thanks for posting

 

[cl2]

What I would hope as the sport advances and more skaters are able to execute at least one quad fairly consistently is that quads will become more integrated into the choreography and flow of the program rather than standing out as "This is the time when I set up my really difficult jump."

I also wouldn't mind if there were a separate competition or separate competition phase designed to allow skaters to show off cutting-edge jump content that's too difficult, too risky, to include in a complex program. Some of the skaters would then move from having elements they can only do in the jump contest to becoming confident enough with those elements to include them in the programs as well.

I like that idea. Similar to how in gymnastics there are individual events for each apparatus, and then there's the all-around event. There can be a jump event, or a spin event, which is separate from the SP/LP event. Judging can still use the same IJS criteria. It would hone skaters with different individual strengths, and allow competitors during individual events to focus on the technical aspects without having to simultaneously think about a dozen other steps/artistry/choreography. I dare say, that will push the boundaries of the sport. As a spectator, even though my personal favs are the skaters with great artistry, sometimes it's also exciting to just pit technical elements against technical elements!

 

[Blades of Passion]

A skater with no Quad would have deserved to win 2015 Worlds if they skated two completely brilliant programs.

Jason Brown could have potentially, with masterpiece programs and nailing the second 3A in the LP that he wasn't able to do. Really wish we could have seen that. Even aside from purely choreographic/interpretative improvements (his SP was simply underwhelming this season and his LP had a few areas that needed more powerful movement), there is still more his team could do to maximize his technical points. He should have been doing his jump combination in the SP in the second half of the program. Makes no sense at all why they threw those points away. Some of the spin position choices take away from his spinning ability as well. There are better spins he is capable of doing, that would all be Level 4 and get minimum of +2 GOE each.

Just for the sake of theory, look at how a SP with no Quad could score:

3A, +2 GOE = 10.5
CSSp4, +2 GOE = 4.0
FCSp4, +2.5 GOE = 4.45
----(halfway bonus)
3F+3T, +2 GOE = 11.74
3Lz, +2 GOE = 8.0
StSq4, +2.5 GOE = 5.65
CCoSp4, +2.5 GOE = 4.75

Tech Total = 49.09
PCS = 46.0

95 points for a SP with no Quad.

You could potentially even hit 100 for a SP with no Quad, if the skating is good enough to endear Davis/White level PCS from judges and you're able to get even more GOE on the jumps and do a 3Flip+3Loop as your jump combo. I'd love to see someone skate a SP like that.

 

[peg]

I like that idea. Similar to how in gymnastics there are individual events for each apparatus, and then there's the all-around event. There can be a jump event, or a spin event, which is separate from the SP/LP event. Judging can still use the same IJS criteria. It would hone skaters with different individual strengths, and allow competitors during individual events to focus on the technical aspects without having to simultaneously think about a dozen other steps/artistry/choreography. I dare say, that will push the boundaries of the sport. As a spectator, even though my personal favs are the skaters with great artistry, sometimes it's also exciting to just pit technical elements against technical elements!

I see it more as tumbling vs. gymnastics events that are done as a routine, where you really just focus on one type of skill. Elite tumbling is insane! It makes what gymnasts d in AG look like child's play.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNs36fQag3E

It's like a jump-off

 

[gmyers]

Here is my take about the quad. Is it worth it? I know there is a long list of notable men who got their bodies wrecked practicing and competing with this jump -- Yagudin, Plushenko, Stojko, Goebel and Browning -- are a few I can name right now. I don't want to lose Jason Brown for that. He has been a skater I have been looking for. He has quality skating and a great attitude. When I see the attempted quad, and it is not done well, I lose interest in the program because I know that there will be other mistakes coming. The skater is human. I prefer a program that flows and to admire. I hope you understand what I am saying.

Plushenko competed into his 30's. Browning stojko goebel had long careers. Only yagudin was really cut short. if jason brown never did a quad being an Athlete in an extremely physicslly demanding sport may cause injuries! I have seen falls on quads and nothing else.

 

[MaxSwagg]

This will maybe be an unpopular opinion but I think at some point (maybe now) the ISU needs to put a limit on the number of quads per program (a max of 1 in the short and 2 in the free) to slow-down the ever increasing difficulty, like the FIG is trying to do. I don't like restrictions, particularly in the not-so-free skate, but at least to me this is reasonable.

 

[andromache]

This will maybe be an unpopular opinion but I think at some point (maybe now) the ISU needs to put a limit on the number of quads per program (a max of 1 in the short and 2 in the free) to slow-down the ever increasing difficulty, like the FIG is trying to do. I don't like restrictions, particularly in the not-so-free skate, but at least to me this is reasonable.

I think this sort of rule will lead to too many criticisms of the ISU trying to limit the athleticism of the sport, which will ultimately just make figure skating look bad to mainstream viewers. I think increasing the penalties for falls is a better option because it will make the skaters limit the quads themselves and result in cleaner programs which will make the sport more palatable to the 6.0 viewers whom the sport has lost. Right now, I think the reward for quads is appropriate, but the risk/penalty if the skater falls is not enough.

 

[karne]

This will maybe be an unpopular opinion but I think at some point (maybe now) the ISU needs to put a limit on the number of quads per program (a max of 1 in the short and 2 in the free) to slow-down the ever increasing difficulty, like the FIG is trying to do. I don't like restrictions, particularly in the not-so-free skate, but at least to me this is reasonable.

This is quite possibly one of the most ridiculous suggestions I've ever seen.

At the end of the day, this is a SPORT. Skaters SHOULD be encouraged to push the limits.

I love seeing Jason skipping and dancing around the rink. I love bawling my eyes out watching Joshua haunt us all with tragedy. And I also love seeing Max racing at full speed across the rink and then hurling himself into the air. There should be room for all types in figure skating - and the Maxes of the world should not be unfairly disadvantaged just because they can do jumps others can't.

 

[HanDomi]

There shouldn't be limit for number of quads. If someone can jump 4,5 in FP, why he should not be allowed to do it.

 

[moriel]

This is quite possibly one of the most ridiculous suggestions I've ever seen.

At the end of the day, this is a SPORT. Skaters SHOULD be encouraged to push the limits.

I love seeing Jason skipping and dancing around the rink. I love bawling my eyes out watching Joshua haunt us all with tragedy. And I also love seeing Max racing at full speed across the rink and then hurling himself into the air. There should be room for all types in figure skating - and the Maxes of the world should not be unfairly disadvantaged just because they can do jumps others can't.

I am not sure if i agree or disagree... Kinda tired of watching the spaltfest that it is - skaters planning 2 quads and then either failing the quads or getting too tired and failing everything else.
Probably rather than limit quads, a good thing would be to punish the falls harder, so skaters actually do what they can do in a stable way. If one can jump 7 quads, great, but if one can just land them 50-50, maybe its better to stick to triples and work on artistry instead.

Admit, was majorly grumpy about Jason Brown not planning quads, because omg its sport, not pretty dance, but his amazing performance on worlds made me reconsider.

 

[moriel]

I am not sure if i agree or disagree... Kinda tired of watching the spaltfest that it is - skaters planning 2 quads and then either failing the quads or getting too tired and failing everything else.
Probably rather than limit quads, a good thing would be to punish the falls harder, so skaters actually do what they can do in a stable way. If one can jump 7 quads, great, but if one can just land them 50-50, maybe its better to stick to triples and work on artistry instead.

Admit, was majorly grumpy about Jason Brown not planning quads, because omg its sport, not pretty dance, but his amazing performance on worlds made me reconsider.

 

[Globetrotter]

I am not sure if i agree or disagree... Kinda tired of watching the spaltfest that it is - skaters planning 2 quads and then either failing the quads or getting too tired and failing everything else.
Probably rather than limit quads, a good thing would be to punish the falls harder, so skaters actually do what they can do in a stable way. If one can jump 7 quads, great, but if one can just land them 50-50, maybe its better to stick to triples and work on artistry instead.

Andromache had a good proposal. Increase the penalty for falls. I can think of say a mandatory -3 GOE for all falls. -1 for first, then -2.5 for second, -4 for third and so for. Skaters will thus decide if they want to risk it. So, the Olympic motto of stronger, faster and higher will still remain but the penalty for a splat fest means only those who can truly execute the quad under pressure of competition will do so.

 

[StitchMonkey]

There shouldn't be limit for number of quads. If someone can jump 4,5 in FP, why he should not be allowed to do it.

The problem is that they can't do that, but try anyway. There is way too much of a "just try it and see if you get lucky" attitude going on. If we actually had many skaters globally that could land 3 quad longs and have them look good, and not let the rest of the program suffer, that would be one thing. But that is not the case, we have skaters who try to land them and maybe get lucky sometimes.

I loath the idea of limiting quads, but at the same time a part of me feels like if the skaters are going to be stubborn and stupid about how they plan their programs, maybe they need to be babysat more. I would rather no restrictions and have more coaches say "NO!" to skaters. A part of me thinks the threat of limiting it should be there in in the hopes of getting skaters to be a bit more cautious. I want them to have freedom, but I want them to appear responsible enough to make good decisions with that freedom.



Overall I think we should keep the fall deductions as is, but also have a 1 point off base value of the jump. Effectively meaning a fall on a jump is -2 and a fall on something else due to tripping on your own feet would remain a -1. That might give it a little more balance.

 

[Mafke]

At the end of the day, this is a SPORT. Skaters SHOULD be encouraged to push the limits.

If that were the case there would be no jump limits at all and jumps would just be counted by rotation and the judges would have speed guns.

Considering how often quads become black holes into which anything like choreography or transitions disappear for some time before (and sometimes for a while after) I think a 1 / 2 rule is very reasonable. When enough guys can do that then maybe up the allowed number.