I.AM's Continued Dominance in Ice Dance

[4everchan]

Thanks for the perspective! Good point about Margaglio and coach collaboration in general. I remember Muriel Zazoui used to train a lot of top teams. Marie-France, Patrice and Romain Hagenauer are all her former students, plus Scott Moir brings his own experiences, so I guess IAM can trace their lineage to both sides of the ocean.

I forgot Nick and Penny are actually based in the US

I remember from the time I spent in the UK how difficult it was to even get regular patch ice since hockey took priority... None of the kids were interested in ice dance, it was only us adult skaters doing patterns, so there was no incentive for the club to organise dedicated ice dance time. Bit of a chicken and egg situation...

hockey took priority in the UK ? WOW... Who would have thought?

 

[Flying Feijoa]

hockey took priority in the UK ? WOW... Who would have thought?

It very much depends on the rink. I feel like our (erstwhile) rink management had a tendency to make questionable business choices... Current management is not much better from what I've heard through friends still based there, but this time it's public sessions that take priority.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

It feels like there have been at least 2 or 3 new teams since the last post here, with many girls there looking for partners. Seriousl surprised they are able to manage this many. And even more surprising is that they all end up going to Montreal, when there feels like fewer teams in London. I'm sure the training must be somewhat different, but it feels like a a huge misallocation of resources to have 4 or 7 or 8 (don't know exact number) teams in London and then 25 (don't know the exact number) teams in Montreal.

 

[4everchan]

It feels like there have been at least 2 or 3 new teams since the last post here, with many girls there looking for partners. Seriousl surprised they are able to manage this many. And even more surprising is that they all end up going to Montreal, when there feels like fewer teams in London. I'm sure the training must be somewhat different, but it feels like a a huge misallocation of resources to have 4 or 7 or 8 (don't know exact number) teams in London and then 25 (don't know the exact number) teams in Montreal.

Well... London Ontario is a pretty small city with just about 400K in population... of course, that doesn't mean there are no available resources for the athletes... but Montreal is almost 5 times bigger... I don't know anything about on-ice resources in London, but there are off-ice resources to consider as well, which would definitely be limited compared to Montreal. How many specialized physiotherapists, sports psychologists, dressmakers, ballroom (or any kind of dance) dance coaches would such a smaller city host? If anything, it may be more crowded in some way in London than in Montreal where options can be provided. Even Lane's group is in a better location (Scarborough) and bigger city (600K, near Toronto). Location is also much better in Montreal for traveling by plane... I don't think London airport, though its name says "international" has flights anywhere outside Canada... Considering how often these teams need to travel, even more so teams from Europe, it makes perfect sense to remain in the Montreal location. Also, I am pretty sure that elite athletes would prefer being in a more exciting city, with good schools, and plenty to do on the little time off they have to rest. I am not a skater but I did have to consider these things when moving across the continent for studies... Mentor opportunities was a big deal. Location was another one and that included facilities but also "life". Finally, I am pretty sure that Scott Moir and co are doing a great job, but it's kind of hard to beat years and years of success with the Montreal team.

I am actually pleasantly surprised that the London location is already attracting good teams as quickly as they are.

 

[GoneWithTheWind]

I figured this was probably the best place for most of this interview (although I'm cross-posting in the Italian Figure Skating thread as some of the content is relevant there too).

A new FS Gossips interview with Barbara Fusar Poli about Guignard/Fabbri, Cimlova/Cirisano and trying to compete with I.AM.

https://fs-gossips.com/barbara-fusa...ges-to-surpass-them-you-have-to-be-a-head-an/

A couple of interesting quotes regarding her opinions on I.AM:

It’s not easy for us; like everyone else, we work a lot, and securing a place in the spotlight is a constant battle. Yes, in ice dance, there is no clear leader like in the days of Papadakis-Cizeron or Virtue-Moir. But let’s take the example of the Montreal academy: they have so many duos, so many coaches, so many judges. It’s challenging to compete with them because they are a true powerhouse. To surpass them, you have to be a head and shoulders above. But our sport is subjective; it’s the judges who make the final decisions.

We cannot expect to win if we copy someone else. And besides, European ice dance has always had its own identity, its own style. The Montreal academy is an excellent school that achieves the highest results, and I understand why skaters aspire to be there. But sometimes I feel like I’m fighting against a rock. No, I’m not complaining; I’m fighting and not giving up because I believe that a monopoly is not beneficial for anyone.

Look at ice dance in Europe: we don’t have many strong schools left. Even our European duos are moving to Canada, which wasn’t the case before. Currently, duos from Ukraine, France, Estonia, and Azerbaijan train in Montreal. But the absence of proper competition kills the sport, and that greatly concerns me.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

I figured this was probably the best place for most of this interview (although I'm cross-posting in the Italian Figure Skating thread as some of the content is relevant there too).

A new FS Gossips interview with Barbara Fusar Poli about Guignard/Fabbri, Cimlova/Cirisano and trying to compete with I.AM.

https://fs-gossips.com/barbara-fusa...ges-to-surpass-them-you-have-to-be-a-head-an/

A couple of interesting quotes regarding her opinions on I.AM:

Great interview! Barbara comes across as sincere both in her competitive spirit and respect for other coaching schools.

 

[4everchan]

Well... there is competition in the USA, and the Russian ice dance will come back at some point. I believe Barbara is a tad short-sighted here, which is completely understandable because she has a team in the mix.

What IAM will be doing and this is from my crystal ball, and it's been right before but also wrong too so whatever

Many of the skaters coming from other countries, for instance Asia or smaller European nations without a very strong ice dance tradition, may go back to their homeland after they retire and coach with their knowledge... This is exactly what has happened with Marie-France and Patrice. There wasn't such a strong ice dance tradition in Montreal. They went and trained in Lyon. They took all they learned there and brought it back and adapted it. Then, some of their skaters from the first generations (Hubbell, Diaz, Moir) opened up a branch in London. Sure, this branch is associated with IAM. They could open up another branch somewhere else, or other skaters could get their own school set up in their own hub.

Actually my crystal ball is not pure magic. It's just a reflection of the history of the sport. Ice dance was pretty much Russian and French for the longest time. When the Soviet Union opened up, a bunch of coaches came to Canada/USA.
Davis and White as well as Virtue and Moir trained with Zoueva. Detroit was the hub back then. Now, Belbin and White have their own school, and Scott his. Right now, Guillaume is still in Montreal but he could definitely start his school in France... etc etc...

Some skaters will want to teach. Others have other interests. For instance, Tessa or the Shibs. In any case, If one removes the concept of winning.. but focuses on the development of the sport in general, IAM has contributed to raise the level of ice dance in MANY parts of the world.

If Babs doesn't see this, well, it's because she is looking at her own skaters only. Unfortunately, a narrow perspective isn't going to help her students. Now, that's not the crystal ball speaking, but just my opinion.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Well... there is competition in the USA, and the Russian ice dance will come back at some point. I believe Barbara is a tad short-sighted here, which is completely understandable because she has a team in the mix.

What IAM will be doing and this is from my crystal ball, and it's been right before but also wrong too so whatever

Many of the skaters coming from other countries, for instance Asia or smaller European nations without a very strong ice dance tradition, may go back to their homeland after they retire and coach with their knowledge... This is exactly what has happened with Marie-France and Patrice. There wasn't such a strong ice dance tradition in Montreal. They went and trained in Lyon. They took all they learned there and brought it back and adapted it. Then, some of their skaters from the first generations (Hubbell, Diaz, Moir) opened up a branch in London. Sure, this branch is associated with IAM. They could open up another branch somewhere else, or other skaters could get their own school set up in their own hub.

Actually my crystal ball is not pure magic. It's just a reflection of the history of the sport. Ice dance was pretty much Russian and French for the longest time. When the Soviet Union opened up, a bunch of coaches came to Canada/USA.
Davis and White as well as Virtue and Moir trained with Zoueva. Detroit was the hub back then. Now, Belbin and White have their own school, and Scott his. Right now, Guillaume is still in Montreal but he could definitely start his school in France... etc etc...

Some skaters will want to teach. Others have other interests. For instance, Tessa or the Shibs. In any case, If one removes the concept of winning.. but focuses on the development of the sport in general, IAM has contributed to raise the level of ice dance in MANY parts of the world.

If Babs doesn't see this, well, it's because she is looking at her own skaters only. Unfortunately, a narrow perspective isn't going to help her students. Now, that's not the crystal ball speaking, but just my opinion.

Right now, what they are doing is setting up different "ice academy of montreal" campuses, charging the same unaffordably high prices, and then linking the dancers to main montreal campus (where many of the top ones will be eventually sent if they want to/have the space). The main IAM campus won't die with the retirement of the "big 4" coaches there. They have an unlimited supply of top techicians/coaches to replace them, who have coached alongside them for a while.

Yes IAM has has amazing contributions to ice dance as a sport. But they charge a ridiculously high fee (no higher than schpilbands extreme fees to be fair), and right now to get good political power for most skaters in most feds its their only chance for success (especially if they are competing against other IAM skaters). When you have such a monopoly, it's bad for the sport. I'm not saying IAM is a bad school, the opposite. They are fantastic, and fantastic for ice dance. But now almost every couple has the same style of skating, the same style of hold, the same choreography philosophy (different choreo styles of course with totally different performnace, but similar structure). And that'd because IAM has about 20 couples (+ 10 ontario). And the other styles of ice dance are getting lost/unfavoured by judges.

I will add though that I don't think this will last forever, and that's because of coaches like Barbara continuing to push through. And matteo. And maurizio. And Charlie white. And the others. Eventually politically different coaches become more or less favoured (you can see Zanni skaters starting to get favour).

if you read the interview, Barbara states that she is pushing her skaters to be better than Montreal skaters. And doing something different with them. I don't think she is just thinking narrow, and she is doing what is best for her students. She even let one of her couples go try IAM for a few weeks.

 

[4everchan]

Right now, what they are doing is setting up different "ice academy of montreal" campuses, charging the same unaffordably high prices, and then linking the dancers to main montreal campus (where many of the top ones will be eventually sent if they want to/have the space). The main IAM campus won't die with the retirement of the "big 4" coaches there. They have an unlimited supply of top techicians/coaches to replace them, who have coached alongside them for a while.

Yes IAM has has amazing contributions to ice dance as a sport. But they charge a ridiculously high fee (no higher than schpilbands extreme fees to be fair), and right now to get good political power for most skaters in most feds its their only chance for success (especially if they are competing against other IAM skaters). When you have such a monopoly, it's bad for the sport. I'm not saying IAM is a bad school, the opposite. They are fantastic, and fantastic for ice dance. But now almost every couple has the same style of skating, the same style of hold, the same choreography philosophy (different choreo styles of course with totally different performnace, but similar structure). And that'd because IAM has about 20 couples (+ 10 ontario). And the other styles of ice dance are getting lost/unfavoured by judges.

I will add though that I don't think this will last forever, and that's because of coaches like Barbara continuing to push through. And matteo. And maurizio. And Charlie white. And the others. Eventually politically different coaches become more or less favoured (you can see Zanni skaters starting to get favour).

if you read the interview, Barbara states that she is pushing her skaters to be better than Montreal skaters. And doing something different with them. I don't think she is just thinking narrow, and she is doing what is best for her students. She even let one of her couples go try IAM for a few weeks.

1) I don't think they will set up more IAM schools. London already had a good ice dance tradition with the Moirs... they just formalized the association.
2) I don't think it's necessary so easy for IAM teams to shine... Look at FBS. they got shafted this year. And, as a matter of fact, they do have a different style versus the other two teams from IAM who passed them.
3) Money? It's expensive everywhere... fine, there are cheaper options... but really? I don't think that's really a relevant point.
4) Great. Babs can push her teams in the direction she believes is best for them and the sport. She is not the only one doing so. The French teams have very interesting and diverse styles too.
5) Judges. I find this talk about judges a bit funny. I heard it before elsewhere... by taking teams from different country, IAM would be swaying judges their way... Honestly, judges (except perhaps for the Canadian ones who like to score badly Canadian skaters) often just put their own skaters ahead... does it matter where they train??? For instance, does one really think that the British judge will help IAM Canadian skaters because F/G train at IAM... or that the USA judges will do the same? Ask FBS if, yes... i mention them again, but I could mention H/B, if being at IAM is giving them more points....
6) Finally, IAM is not that old... and Babs admitted that the last two cycles were dominated anyway by exceptional skaters who most likely would have won wherever they skated. So for me, the sample is very not yet relevant to make such bold statements.


Do I believe that Chock and Bates are the best ice dancers in the world? I don't. At the same time, in this year's competition, they did what they needed to do to win it all. Is it because they were at IAM : yes it is. Because they have improved tremendously from being in a good school.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

1) I don't think they will set up more IAM schools. London already had a good ice dance tradition with the Moirs... they just formalized the association.
2) I don't think it's necessary so easy for IAM teams to shine... Look at FBS. they got shafted this year. And, as a matter of fact, they do have a different style versus the other two teams from IAM who passed them.
3) Money? It's expensive everywhere... fine, there are cheaper options... but really? I don't think that's really a relevant point.
4) Great. Babs can push her teams in the direction she believes is best for them and the sport. She is not the only one doing so. The French teams have very interesting and diverse styles too.
5) Judges. I find this talk about judges a bit funny. I heard it before elsewhere... by taking teams from different country, IAM would be swaying judges their way... Honestly, judges (except perhaps for the Canadian ones who like to score badly Canadian skaters) often just put their own skaters ahead... does it matter where they train??? For instance, does one really think that the British judge will help IAM Canadian skaters because F/G train at IAM... or that the USA judges will do the same? Ask FBS if, yes... i mention them again, but I could mention H/B, if being at IAM is giving them more points....
6) Finally, IAM is not that old... and Babs admitted that the last two cycles were dominated anyway by exceptional skaters who most likely would have won wherever they skated. So for me, the sample is very not yet relevant to make such bold statements.


Do I believe that Chock and Bates are the best ice dancers in the world? I don't. At the same time, in this year's competition, they did what they needed to do to win it all. Is it because they were at IAM : yes it is. Because they have improved tremendously from being in a good school.

I'll address each point using numbers that equate to your points.
1) they were planning on setting up one in Spain as well initially. They haven't clearly done that yet, but it's in the cards.
2) I wouldn't say shafted. They had very good results, that they wouldn't have in a different team. But also IAM politically support teams that are there for a long time. Teams kind of wait their turn for political support in this aspect.
3) it's totally relevant. It's become a support for the super rich, at least where IAM is concerned. $10,000 CAD per month per skater isn't really affordable., and if you want to win and get necessarily political backing, you don't have other options really. That's why what the Italian coaches doing what they are doing is so important.
4) not sure what the point here is. Did you read the interview? Barbara has a lot of respect for IAM. She is simply stating that it's difficult to fight against them.
5) yes. I have a lot of information specifically if you want me to DM you?
6) I agree. That's why what MiDA, Barbara, Matteo, Maurizio, etc are so important. And that's the context of the interview. They are fighting for success, and not giving up as underdogs. I hope MIDA has an impact in the US Fed (they are seeming to do so), and there becomes a more equal distribution of teams in the future.

And lastly. I don't think chock/bates won worlds because of improvement. I think they won because the other top teams retired, and they inherited the political backing. They waited their turn in this aspect. Yes Madis edges are improved, yes they were given a great program. But their skating itself, for me, whilst offering great entertainment isn't world champion standard. Although this is a better discussion for a different thread if you want, because I don't think it's too relevant to this thread.

 

[4everchan]

I'll address each point using numbers that equate to your points.
1) they were planning on setting up one in Spain as well initially. They haven't clearly done that yet, but it's in the cards.
2) I wouldn't say shafted. They had very good results, that they wouldn't have in a different team. But also IAM politically support teams that are there for a long time. Teams kind of wait their turn for political support in this aspect.
3) it's totally relevant. It's become a support for the super rich, at least where IAM is concerned. $10,000 CAD per month per skater isn't really affordable., and if you want to win and get necessarily political backing, you don't have other options really. That's why what the Italian coaches doing what they are doing is so important.
4) not sure what the point here is. Did you read the interview? Barbara has a lot of respect for IAM. She is simply stating that it's difficult to fight against them.
5) yes. I have a lot of information specifically if you want me to DM you?
6) I agree. That's why what MiDA, Barbara, Matteo, Maurizio, etc are so important. And that's the context of the interview. They are fighting for success, and not giving up as underdogs. I hope MIDA has an impact in the US Fed (they are seeming to do so), and there becomes a more equal distribution of teams in the future.

And lastly. I don't think chock/bates won worlds because of improvement. I think they won because the other top teams retired, and they inherited the political backing. They waited their turn in this aspect. Yes Madis edges are improved, yes they were given a great program. But their skating itself, for me, whilst offering great entertainment isn't world champion standard. Although this is a better discussion for a different thread if you want, because I don't think it's too relevant to this thread.

let's follow the point form

1) i believe it will be trickier to set IAM hubs in other countries... even outside of Ontario and Quebec
2) FBS have been there longer than the Brits. And they are better skaters.
3) Money and sport... it's the same in a lot of sports... more money, better training facilities, better coaches, better everything...Consider tennis, or worse bobsleigh or car racing... or even equestrians... It is the same thing with education too. That's a society problem... not a IAM problem really.
4) yes i read it but i took it with a grain of salt... on the one hand she says competition is great... and on the other hand, she complains that their main competitors are super powerful She also contradicts herself saying Daria is from her group but then saying she wasn't yet the team's coach... it's Babs... she is fiery and fun... she loves drama... camps happen quite often this time of the year, people work with other coaches, people get choreo from, etc... i suspect that she is a bit exaggerating the possibility they may not return... Also, I can imagine that MF may not want to take on Babs' students They don't take just everyone who wants to train there. Weaver and Poje were rejected.
5) not needed but thanks. Seen some of that elsewhere... and heard some other coaches mention it too... even some figure skater commentators on the air.
6) the sport clearly goes into cycles... Detroit was everything a while back... now it's Montreal.. and in ten years, it will be some other place.


Yes... retirements of course helped. At the beginning of the year, I thought Piper and Paul had a shot. But we know what happened.
Some years, we have great champions, some years, we do not At the same time, take anyone on the podium, and nobody clearly makes unanimity. If the Italians had won, a lot of people may not have like that. As many say on this forum " they do nothing for me but I appreciate how great they are" ... If Piper and Paul had won, a lot of people would have complained too. Babs is right in this interview : it's not a Virtue-Moir or a P/C year/cycle

 

[Flying Feijoa]

I didn't sense any drama in the interview, am I just a babe in the woods...

There are many reasons why a promising young ice dance team might be unable to or prefer not to go to Montreal - maybe they aren't accepted there, don't have the money, personal/family situation makes it hard to relocate etc. Or maybe they are uncomfortable working with close competitors (I know it's a very friendly atmosphere but still might not suit everyone). It's good for the sport as a whole to have more high-quality training options, so these teams aren't disadvantaged from the start.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

I didn't sense any drama in the interview, am I just a babe in the woods...

There are many reasons why a promising young ice dance team might be unable to or prefer not to go to Montreal - maybe they aren't accepted there, don't have the money, personal/family situation makes it hard to relocate etc. Or maybe they are uncomfortable working with close competitors (I know it's a very friendly atmosphere but still might not suit everyone). It's good for the sport as a whole to have more high-quality training options, so these teams aren't disadvantaged from the start.

Barbara has a negative reputation as an athlete, and definitely deserved it at some point. But her staring days are far behind her - from what I've heard she seems a very supportive coach, and all her students seem to enjoy working with her. I think some people will naturally look for the drama that isn't there (out of habit rather than fault). Barbara also states things matter-of-factly, but often in a way thats easy to misinterpret. Yes I'm biased as I love Guignard/Fabbris skating skills more than any top couple right now, but Barbara has clearly given them great technique (And they had to to make the height advantage work). Yes they arent as engaging as the other top couples, but they just bring magical skating - pure and simple. I wish we had an all round couple like Tessa/Scott around, but every top team is lacking something (every top team having different strengths and weakness).

I don't blame IAM for being a political powerhouse or offering training couples, I blame the stupid ice dance politics which makes it different to achieve at less favourable schools. The "Itallian coaches" have managed to break through, but when competing against a school with 20 couples it'll always be a political disadvantage. None of the other places have facilities (or coaches) to support that many top senior couples, so none of them can replace IAM. the only way for it to become politically balanced is if ISU find better ways to reduce judging bias.

Theoretically, a very good coach should ideally be able to produce one really successful top couple, but unfortunately it's become a numbers game. And because of that, the top schools can influence the style that international judges look for (in this case very spacious holds used sparsely, lots of hand in hand hold, lots of crossovers entering every single element.). I appreciate the style though, lots of fantastic couples produce fantastic skating with it. I just wish other styles were judged favourably as well.

 

[theblade]

Igor, Marina, and to a lesser degree MIDA all charge in US dollars. Something to consider vis-a-vis IAM's fees. Less lesson rationing (meaning that all told, IAM might be the cheaper option depending on your team's needs).

It's been great seeing what Barbara, Matteo and Maurizio's teams have been doing. As well as the teams based in France. Love the different sensibilities.

 

[4everchan]

I admit that when I see Barbara, I have a hard time separating the histrionics of the past or even of the current day, with the stop watch for instance I don't think it's negative, I see it as a fun thing... But sure, maybe without this context, the article would read better for me...

let's not forget too that this was done for a Russian interview, so already there are several layers of translation in there + my own as I am not a native English speaker... so wow ! What I read may be perceived differently by someone else.