Interesting Johnny Tidbit (On Jumps)

[Mathman]

There is more to those jumps than a wrong edge take off. There is an easier position to do 3 air turns with a comfortable landing than if the skater were to execute a proper lutz or flip.

I think that is an excellent and often overlooked point.

Especially on a Lutz attempt, I think we can regard switching over to the inside edge in the same category as pre-rotating. If you hold your outside edge all the way to lift off, you are curving slightly the "wrong way."

I agree that this makes it quite a feat to get in three complete revolutions "the right way" and a smooth landing. A true Lutz has almost a delayed feeling to it when you launch from the correct edge. (Again, that's why the jump looks so spectacular when it is done right.)

On the other hand if you flutz, you have released the counterrotation pre-maturely. Like a pre-rotation you are essentially getting started on your three rotations on the ice instead of in the air.

(I am not so sure how it works for a flip. Maybe for lippers -- especially men -- they get a better "pole vault" out of their pick when threy slip over to the outside edge.)

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

^^^

You got it MM. The Flutz is so much easier than a Lutz regardless of the air turns and landing. It's like any other triple jump which the skater has no problem with.

If we continue to call a flutz a faulty lutz, then we should take off -1 for the wrong take-off, and another -1 becasue the jump is now easier to execute. That's automatic deductions. The GoEs can follow.

 

[Mathman]

If we continue to call a flutz a faulty lutz, then we should take off -1 for the wrong take-off, and another -1 because the jump is now easier to execute. That's automatic deductions. The GoEs can follow.

I think that's a suggestion that the ISU could very well adopt in the future. It would make sense.

When the CoP first came out, things like underrotations and wrong edge take-offs were left to the judges to deal with in GOEs. But every year a little more of the power is taken out of the judges' hands and given to the tecnical panel. Now it is the technical panel that gives out <'s, e's and !'s.

This may be because the judges were letting too many mistakes go unpunished. Or maybe it is part of Cinquanta's master plan completely to replace the judges (who work for the National Federations) with the technical specialists (who work directly for the ISU), eventually.

 

[Tonichelle]

either way, $peedy hath spoken.

 

[antmanb]

^^^

You got it MM. The Flutz is so much easier than a Lutz regardless of the air turns and landing. It's like any other triple jump which the skater has no problem with.

If we continue to call a flutz a faulty lutz, then we should take off -1 for the wrong take-off, and another -1 becasue the jump is now easier to execute. That's automatic deductions. The GoEs can follow.

Joe - can you clarify what the GOE would do though? Would it still be negative because there was a change of edge or could the judges give it positive GOE on the basis of the other attributes of the jump, and the fact that the the deduction has already been made elsewhere? If the former, then people might argue that you then get hit with a double penalty (much like the under-rotation being downgraded and marked negatively in the GOE), if the latter then you are probably punishing the jump less than it is now given that a severe change of edge recieves -2GOE which amounts to 2 points of the score of the element. Potentially in your eg the skater could lose 2 points for flutzing but the judges might give it a +2 for other reasons and the skater ends up with base value for the change edge take off.

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Joe - can you clarify what the GOE would do though? Would it still be negative because there was a change of edge or could the judges give it positive GOE on the basis of the other attributes of the jump, and the fact that the the deduction has already been made elsewhere? If the former, then people might argue that you then get hit with a double penalty (much like the under-rotation being downgraded and marked negatively in the GOE), if the latter then you are probably punishing the jump less than it is now given that a severe change of edge recieves -2GOE which amounts to 2 points of the score of the element. Potentially in your eg the skater could lose 2 points for flutzing but the judges might give it a +2 for other reasons and the skater ends up with base value for the change edge take off.Ant

Ant - I brought the GoEs in because the Tech Panel would take care of the non-lutz and scorekeeper can automatically dededuct the 2 points, so the judges will have something to do They've already been issuing GoEs on wrong-edge-takeoffs as it is so let them continue. I agree with you that a particular judge cold give plus GoEs through ignorance or through favoritiwm.

Personally, I would give a Flutz a non-jump score of 0. However, if they made it legal, I would give it a much lower base value. I know I could be sent to hell for this kind of thinking.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I believe that line of thinking is far, far overboard.

A flutz is not an "easy" jump. It simplifies the lutz, but it's harder than a toeloop or salchow. The toeloop and salchow are the simplest jumps because the free leg swings your body into the rotation. Doing a flutz still requires you to glide backwards into the jump and to pull harder with the opposing side of the body to achieve rotation.

Changing edge on the entry of the Lutz is a small error, akin to landing on the wrong (inside) edge and causing a bobble on the exit of the jump. The witch-hunt regarding change-of-edge errors in the Lutz and Flip (especially the latter jump) has become so ridiculously overblown. They are not a huge deal.

Brian Joubert had an amazing Flip that should get (and always used to get) a high score, regardless of him taking off on the wrong edge. A "Lip" of his quality with such excellent height, distance, air position, rotation, and secure landing deserves to score higher than a Flip which simply took off from the correct edge but has no exceptional qualities. The entry is one single phase of the jump.

It's sad that Brian completely took the Flip out his programs this season because of the imposition the rules are causing. This is yet another area of CoP which needs a big overhaul. Doing a flutz or lip should be a small deduction from the base value of the jump (imo, 10% off the base value for an obvious Lip or a non-severe Flutz, and 20% off the base value for a severe Flutz). It should have nothing to do with GOE. Let's remember what that term means - Grade. Of. Execution. You can execute a flutz or lip just as well as a lutz or flip in terms of every other aspect of the jump. A +3 GoE on a Lip should be entirely possible.

And, no, this isn't about Brian. He's not a favorite of mine at all. It's the best example for the situation, though. Another example would be Sarah Meier. The whole issue with her Flips getting wrong edge calls has made her totally distraught. That used to be a really secure jump for her. In fact, Dick Button praised her entry into her Flip in his commentary of the 2006 Olympics Short Program, saying "did you notice how straight the entrance was into it, that's the way I think a Triple Flip should always be done, without a curving inside edge."

It's too bad that there isn't as much emphasis placed on difficult jump entries as there currently is on people switching their entry edge on the Lutz and Flip. That would be a much more interesting and rewarding area of skating to discuss and judge. I'll never forget Matt Savoie's Long Program at the 2006 Olympics receiving relatively low marks for "Transitions" when he had very difficult entrances into 4 of his jumping passes and every other competitor had 1 at most.

CoP would be good if the judges and the people who are in charge of writing it could actually grasp how the system should work. Unfortunately, CoP is currently a malformed child with parents who don't seem to understand what should be done in order to help and improve that which they have created.

 

[Mathman]

Doing a flutz or lip should be a small deduction from the base value of the jump (imo, 10% off the base value for an obvious Lip or a non-severe Flutz, and 20% off the base value for a severe Flutz). It should have nothing to do with GOE....

To me, this recommendation does not seem to go with he rest of your post.

If a wrong edge take-off is just another errror, like an inside edge landing, or a hand down or step out, why shouldn't those other errors recieve a 10% reduction in base value, too?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I believe that line of thinking is far, far overboard.

A flutz is not an "easy" jump. It simplifies the lutz, but it's harder than a toeloop or salchow. The toeloop and salchow are the simplest jumps because the free leg swings your body into the rotation. Doing a flutz still requires you to glide backwards into the jump and to pull harder with the opposing side of the body to achieve rotation.

It seem to me that you are implying that the Flutz is a legitimate jump You would have trouble convincing the ISU of that.

btw, do you not see the Flip in the flutz? a jump you already executed or will before the routine is over.

 

[siberia82]

Unfortunately, CoP is currently a malformed child with parents who don't seem to understand what should be done in order to help and improve that which they have created.

I really like your analogy.

As a newbie and a non-figure skater, I'm happy that I can usually identify 4 out of 6 jumps without having to take a 2nd look, but I ALWAYS have problems differentiating a lutz from a flip (or a flutz from a lip).

 

[Tonichelle]

I have been a fan for 20 years (well... in Jan it'll be 20!) and the Lutz and Flip confuse me to... mainly because of the flutz and the lip... because of the edge going back and forth you don't really know what the heck the jump is supposed to be.

I'm all for nailing a wrong edge. Essentially you can have 4 flips or 4 lutzes (which ever is the more natural jump for that particular skater) in a program and that's 2 too many... which is a clear violation of the Zayak rule!

 

[Bennett]

I have been a fan for 20 years (well... in Jan it'll be 20!) and the Lutz and Flip confuse me to... mainly because of the flutz and the lip... because of the edge going back and forth you don't really know what the heck the jump is supposed to be.

Really? But isn't it much easier to see the entrance than the takeoff edge? The former would show you what the skater was at least trying to do whereas the takeoff happens in less than a second so that I often need slowmo to confirm.

 

[Mathman]

I'm all for nailing a wrong edge. Essentially you can have 4 flips or 4 lutzes (which ever is the more natural jump for that particular skater) in a program and that's 2 too many... which is a clear violation of the Zayak rule!

It seems like the difference of opinion comes down to whether a person thinks that the whole definition and description of a Lutz jump is three words long -- "bacK outside edge" -- or whether you think there are other aspects of the jump that also distinguish it from a flip.

If there are, say, four different characteristics of a Lutz that are different from a flip, and you do three out of four, then it seems OK to me to call it a Lutz and penalyze it 25% ( = -1.5 in GOE).

 

[Tonichelle]

I dunno, it seems to me that their entrances are so much the same, too... Sals, loops, axels and toes are so much easier lol

I'm also at the mercy of camera angles... and Dick Button calling the jump several different names before the other expert comes in and declares what it actually is (yeah, I've never gotten over him calling a toe loop an axel!)

 

[Mathman]

Toni, try this experiment. In the following picture, cover up the skater's feet and see if you can tell what jump she is doing (she is going backward).

Sometimes it's hard to tell in real time, and yes the camera angle is important. But I can tell what this jump is going to be without looking at the edge that she is on.

http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_recog/images/lutz_dbl_js_s.jpg

 

[Bennett]

I dunno, it seems to me that their entrances are so much the same, too...

But I am pretty sure that you would be familar with the conventional preparation/entrance going into the lutz. Especially, if you see that specific pathway in the arena, you can't miss it. The ones immediately after steps may be more difficult to see. Still, the skaters would be on the back outside edge long enough to see before the takeoff.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

As MM says, the 3 words are what make the Lutz a Lutz. Back Outside Edge!!! I would add, and counter rotate. Any other take off is not a Lutz, and if it doesn't counter rotate, it is more of an error;. Without the counter taek-off, it becomes a conventional triiple air turn - not the lutz air turn.The jump must take off from a back outside edge and counter rotate in the aire. Why should it not? The eagle eyes of the Tech Panel will call the jump whether anyone sees it or not. The judges use slomo if they don't believe the Tech Panel. The spectator may get slo mo days later.

It's a difficult but beautiful jump by definition and we should want to keep it that way.

 

[Mathman]

I would add, and counter rotate. Any other take off is not a Lutz, and if it doesn't counter rotate, it is more of an error,...

Actually, I think the two go hand in hand. The outside edge (curving clockwise on the ice for a counterclockwise jumoper) is where the counterrotation comes from.

GKelly explained it to me well by saying thqt when you switch over to the inside edge you "release the counterroation pre-maturely." That is, on the ice instead of in the air.

A beautiful jump indeed. Lots of men can do it, but only a few ladies (going along with Johnny Weir's thesis, LOL.) I would be just as happy if the ladies left it out -- but they can't, because of the points.

 

[Blades of Passion]

To me, this recommendation does not seem to go with he rest of your post.

If a wrong edge take-off is just another errror, like an inside edge landing, or a hand down or step out, why shouldn't those other errors recieve a 10% reduction in base value, too?

Those errors are on a sliding value between however many judges are judging, rather than edge and underrotation calls which are simply called as a set thing by the tech panel.

So, if you keep that balance of power between the judges and the tech panel, an edge mistake should be taken off the base value because of the fact that falling on a Flutz should (IMO) be worth less than falling on a Lutz. Currently, there is no difference. The Flutz deduction is simply part of the already maxed-out negative GoE given for the fall.

It seem to me that you are implying that the Flutz is a legitimate jump You would have trouble convincing the ISU of that.

Is a double-footed Lutz, or any other double-footed jump, a "legitimate" jump? Why is it that such a thing is not given 0 points, as you think should be given to a flutz?

A Flutz is simply a deviation of technique, not an illegal move. It makes the jump relatively easier...and that's it. The difference is this particular error has been given a notable nickname.

A Flutz or a Lip can still be a beautiful and challenging move. For those who aren't blinded by simple hate/bias, I would say to look at Mao Asada's Flutz. She does intricate footwork into it, gets very good height and distance, has a good air position, and lands with good flow coming out. I prefer her Flutz to a Lutz from many other skaters. Similarly, I'll take Joubert's Lip over a Flip from most anyone else.

What this argument really comes down to is the following line of thinking: "a Flutz is a Flip, and a Lip is a Lutz".

That statement simply doesn't hold validity in my mind. It's joke to me for someone to say they are the same movement. If such a thing were true, I'd love to know why they feel much different when skating. Why is it that they don't gain momentum in the same manner?

No, a "Flutz" is a Lutz and a "Lip" is a Flip. The entrance remains the same regardless of the blade shifting over. A Lutz with a hand down on the landing is still a Lutz too. But, you give something a name and it takes on a larger importance. If only I had a name for "crappy spin position" that rolled off the tongue like "flutz" and "lip". Maybe then those issues would be cracked down on. I love how ISU's remedy to all the horrible spins we are seeing was to cut the number of them allowed from 4 to 3 in the Long Program.

I've never had a problem distinguishing a "Flutz" from a Lutz or a "Lip" from a Flip when watching the skater go into the move. Did they enter from a back-glide/counter-turn/walley (Lutz) or did they enter from a 3-turn/mohawk/half-loop (Flip)? The edge of the blade on takeoff doesn't determine those movements and if anyone is able to do at least a double of each of these jumps then they should know how different it feels.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Actually, I think the two go hand in hand. The outside edge (curving clockwise on the ice for a counterclockwise jumoper) is where the counterrotation comes from.

GKelly explained it to me well by saying thqt when you switch over to the inside edge you "release the counterroation pre-maturely." That is, on the ice instead of in the air.

A beautiful jump indeed. Lots of men can do it, but only a few ladies (going along with Johnny Weir's thesis, LOL.) I would be just as happy if the ladies left it out -- but they can't, because of the points.

nice post but I do not understand when you switch over to the inside edge you "release the counterroation pre-maturely." That is, on the ice instead of in the air.

Where in the definition does one switch over to an inside edge? If one is doing a lutz, it takes off from a back outside edge and unlike the toe loop, one counter rotates in the air whereas in the toe loop one rotates quite naturally and easily. If one switches from back outside to back inside edges on the ice,one is now in a position to jump naturally and easily. It follows the definition of a Flip which is not a counterrotation jump. If you are impressed by the Flip airturns as opposed to the Lutz airturns, so be it, but for me I want to see a Lutz and not two Flips in a routine.

After much discussion on this Lutz topic, I've changed my mind and now believe now that it should be done the old fashioned way with a long back outside edge before take off so as to show the take off more clearly. The new fandangled way of executing the lutz nowadays (probably by the Ladies) is to hide the take off with a little mintsy crossover. Of course, the CoP demands connecting steps to everything and practically excludes beautiful stroking. That's the way it is in Skateland.

btw. I think all Russian Ladies have perfect Lutzes and they come in all sizes so I don't think its difficulty lies with body type. Volchova had a beaut!!