Is GOAT a meaningful concept?

[Mathman]

The question that was asked by the OP was NOT 'who is or is not a or the Greatest of All Time/GOAT', but (speaking as a lexiconophiliac who cares as much about words than the musicians here do about composers, or most of us do about figure skating) if the actual term is a meaningful concept.

Guilty as charged.

I always got a kick out of the way the USFSA handled Michael Kwan hype. They always referred to her as "the most decorated skater in U.S. figure skating history." This is a well-defined statement. It is settled by taking all the medals and trophies that she won over the course of her career and weighing the total mass. If it is greater than anyone else's, then she is the "most decorated."

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Hanyu does have fans in China. What he wouldn't have had in China is the funding to become a great skater. So it all becomes cyclical, especially when I see the idea of how he would have been 'treated better' in China because of his fans being floated around online. He might have been a complete failure in the first place, and ended up having zero fans.

On the same note, Sui/Han and Shen/Zhao are both in the GOAT conversation, but nowhere close to being 'popular' as much as they too would deserve it.

Ooooh right! I forgot that he did have Chinese fans, some of whom showed up to his competitions, e.g. one showed up in Rostelecom Cup 2017 in Seimei cosplay, if I recall correctly?

Good point about the funding - I mentioned Boyang Jin who was incredibly talented and had two World bronzes, and his own country didn't exactly generously score him in home competitions or politic for him with their care/focus directed primarily on Pairs (with S/H and S/Z benefiting from it as you said, and putting themselves in the Pairs GOAT convo in part thanks to bolstering from their home fed).

Shaidorov is a recent example of one of the GOAT jumpers but lacking fed support (even after his OGM win).

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Guilty as charged.

I always got a kick out of the way the USFSA handled Michael Kwan hype. They always referred to her as "the most decorated skater in U.S. figure skating history." This is a well-defined statement. It is settled by taking all the medals and trophies that she won over the course of her career and weighing the total mass. If it is greater than anyone else's, then she is the "most decorated."

I don't think Kwan's lack of an OGM removes her from the GOAT convo, but I think her tech ability wasn't as strong as other GOAT contenders. Artistically though she was superb, and she was very competitive for a LONG time.

And to that point, re: GOAT as a concept... IMO, GOATs doesn't mean flawless or impervious to criticism but it's funny that for some people their GOATs are infallible and any, even objective, scrutiny or criticism of their GOATs is met with scathing words and defensiveness. I guess some people are ride or dies when it comes to their GOATs. One of my friends is a skating diehard and Michelle Kwan is their #1 - no questions asked, you will never change her mind. But when I pointed out that she had a flutz and a rather infrequent/inconsistent 3-3 (and only a 3T+3T at that), man, she got so presssssed, and adamantly said, "No, she had zero technical issues. She was perfect." I mean, Kim is my (current) women's GOAT but I'm not oblivious to the fact that she didn't have a ton of clean competitions (SP+FS), didn't have a 3A/quad, and avoided the loop (even if for her hip) and didn't have a ton of 7 clean triple freeskates while several other skaters have. I guess for some people's GOATs the rose-coloured glasses are just a thing.

 

[yfan1]

I mentioned Boyang Jin who was incredibly talented and had two World bronzes, and his own country didn't exactly generously score him in home competitions or politic for him with their care/focus directed primarily on Pairs (with S/H and S/Z benefiting from it as you said, and putting themselves in the Pairs GOAT convo in part thanks to bolstering from their home fed).

Everyone can see that Jin, Yan, and Zijun were very talented, who either got support too late, or never did. Jin simply lucked out by being a likable character at a home Olympics to get so many fans, it seems. It really feels sad that maybe we missed out some all time talent, if only China could have focused on singles as much as it does on Pairs. (not to whine too much, because China's still a rich country that chooses to do what it does - smaller feds are the greater tragedies in funding's case)

Shaidorov is a recent example of one of the GOAT jumpers but lacking fed support (even after his OGM win).

I have ranted enough about this skater I don't feel he is a GOAT jumper. He has nice air positions and flow on the jumps and some difficult transitions, but the jumps lack height and distance and the take offs aren't great.

Seeing how we're already speaking about them in the post, Boyang Jin is a GOAT jumper. Han Yan too, with his massive 3A, that was accompanied by some other massive jumps.

 

[4everchan]

Everyone can see that Jin, Yan, and Zijun were very talented, who either got support too late, or never did. Jin simply lucked out by being a likable character at a home Olympics to get so many fans, it seems. It really feels sad that maybe we missed out some all time talent, if only China could have focused on singles as much as it does on Pairs. (not to whine too much, because China's still a rich country that chooses to do what it does - smaller feds are the greater tragedies in funding's case)


I have ranted enough about this skater I don't feel he is a GOAT jumper. He has nice air positions and flow on the jumps and some difficult transitions, but the jumps lack height and distance and the take offs aren't great.

Seeing how we're already speaking about them in the post, Boyang Jin is a GOAT jumper. Han Yan too, with his massive 3A, that was accompanied by some other massive jumps.

Well well

I think we have established and continue to prove that GOAT is really a in the eye of the beholder concept because if I agree with you (thus disagree with one of my GOAT GS members @CanadianSkaterGuy) about Misha's jumps which are not top notch for me at all (it doesn't help that I saw him compete when he wasn't yet matured at Montreal Worlds and it wasn't very nice at all) I cannot agree about Boyang's jumps because of one major flaw, the neck bent backwards when he jumps gives me the creeps. Such a bad posture. This is also why I cannot like Hanyu's jumps : every time I saw him perform, his toe assisted jumps were tilted in the air. Gorgeous triple axel. Great salchow (most of the times and loops) but the lutz and toe were rarely well positioned in the air. He had this ability to land those off-axis jumps but with little flow.
Patrick had gorgeous air position and technique on all jumps until he lost confidence on the triple axel which became a big problem for him. I wouldn't call him a jumping goat anyways... but just showing that I can see flaws even in my favourite . At Montreal Worlds, Malinin was impeccable in the LP. I would have given him that title until this year. So who is left ? I guess my favourite jumper would be Nathan Chen.

Han Yan's jumps were a thing of beauty and his skating skills were good too. If I had to pick my favourite man skater ever from China, that would definitely be Han Yan, despite his lack of world podiums... and let's talk about someone whose career was "altered" by the Chinese Federation while we are at it.

 

[yfan1]

Hanyu in general does tilt on his Lutz. Apart from that, I think the tilt used to appear with transitions. It is what it is, I think I'd only call the Lutz flawed though.

Jin does that head thing on only some jumps, not all, isn't it? It's not flawed technique, but granted aesthetic preference is what it is. To me it's actually that his edge jumps used to be noticeably smaller than the toe jumps, even if not "small" per se. I suppose that's not all that different from the other toe-dominant jumpers.

Han Yan definitely had talent. But on the note of talking about flaws, I felt him not using his knee action properly in time with his landings became pretty chronic as his career progressed. I'm sure it was mostly nerves, but it resulted in little flow with him on many of his jump attempts.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I have ranted enough about this skater I don't feel he is a GOAT jumper. He has nice air positions and flow on the jumps and some difficult transitions, but the jumps lack height and distance and the take offs aren't great.

Seeing how we're already speaking about them in the post, Boyang Jin is a GOAT jumper. Han Yan too, with his massive 3A, that was accompanied by some other massive jumps.

We can agree to disagree. But IMO Shaidorov belongs in the top list, as he has landed the hardest jump elements of any skater other than Malinin's 4A — including the only ever 3A+Eu+4S and 3A+4T in competition. You don't get fully rotated quads as the latter jump in a combination if your jumps lack amplitude! Of course, Shaidorov's overall skating leaves a lot to be desired and he's early in his career, but when I think jumping GOAT, Shaidorov is definitely top 5 for the sheer difficulty he's been able to execute.

Malinin, Chen, Hanyu, Shaidorov, Uno might be my top 5 fave/GOAT men's jumpers under IJS, in that order. Rounding out my top 10 might be Zhou, Kagiyama, Chan, Fa, and though I don't really like him or his skating, and he only ever managed a 4T, Plushenko for his amplitude and consistency and pushing the envelope (3A+Eu+3F, 4T+3T+3L).

Gummenik also displayed a lot of jumping talent at the Olympics but a small sample size before he hits my top 10. Quality also matters too - which is why even though he's landed tough elements I wouldn't put someone like Grassl on my jump GOAT list.

Jin's 4Z and Yan's 3A are textbook examples of those elements when hit, but they did struggle on other elements.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Hanyu in general does tilt on his Lutz. Apart from that, I think the tilt used to appear with transitions. It is what it is, I think I'd only call the Lutz flawed though.

Jin does that head thing on only some jumps, not all, isn't it? It's not flawed technique, but granted aesthetic preference is what it is. To me it's actually that his edge jumps used to be noticeably smaller than the toe jumps, even if not "small" per se. I suppose that's not all that different from the other toe-dominant jumpers.

Han Yan definitely had talent. But on the note of talking about flaws, I felt him not using his knee action properly in time with his landings became pretty chronic as his career progressed. I'm sure it was mostly nerves, but it resulted in little flow with him on many of his jump attempts.

Hanyu's flip sometimes had edge calls (though he corrected it later), but never competed or managed a 4F, and he didn't land or compete the 4Z often - as you said he often had a tilt on it. The salchow also occasionally had timing issues but when he mastered it was very nice. Also one of the best 4Ts, and of course, textbook 3As (best 3A jumper of all time I'd say). First to land the quad loop, but I do think there were better loop jumpers (Uno's entry into his 4L was crazy hard, and Chen, Ignatov, and Malinin had nice ones). Overall though, very clean jumping, often with transitions, and strong technique and entry/exit flow which is why he's for sure a top 3 jumper for me.

Was gonna say too that Jin is more of a toe jumper/vaulter and was a bit more reserved on his edge jumps. I think he did have one of the best quad lutzes in the game though and wish he still had it in order to remain more competitive. Still think though other skaters were better/more consistent jumpers overall.