Is Grand Prix series ready to downsize to 5 events? | Page 13 | Golden Skate

Is Grand Prix series ready to downsize to 5 events?

Probably it depends heavily on the attendance and TV viewership as TV/streaming rights often form a substantial part of the budgetary considerations. And it may vary from event to event, and from year to year.
Helsinki GP in 2018 generated 1 million euro for the Finnish Skating Association, according to their own annual report, although it is not clear if the amount is net or gross. Plus 7.7 million euro for the local economy from tourism. The report states further that the event was watched by 10 million people in Japan alone, I guess Japanese TV paid a nice amount for the rights. The report stresses Yuzuru was competing there.


Skate Canada in Kelowna in 2019 generated 5.3 million Canadian dollars for British Columbia local economy, 4.5 million of which in Kelowna area alone, again in tourism. Here they do not provide the amounts for federation. This report also points to Yuzuru Hanyu competing there.

Several Japanese papers reported on the sinking viewership of FS and waning interest in the sport over this very weekend, on the occasion of Finland Trophy GP. I guess they decided they cannot leave these rows of empty seats without any comment any more. Here's a translation of one of these articles, quoting the Executive Director of the Finnish Skating Association who does not speak about money, only about attendance, but from their tone you can guess the finances were not great. And although this article does not state it, we know from other sources, namely, ISU's own audit reports, that TV viewership diminished in Japan, too. This would probably affect the money they were willing to pay for broadcast rights.



You would think you were watching a completely different venue in Helsinki 2018. But Johnny Weir made it clear, the venue is packed with people who traveled there from Japan just to see Yuzu.
 
May God, bless Hanyu.

ISU needs to make the long program more "free" -- one less jump element, one less leveled spin, and delete the levelled footwork sequence. Strongly encourage creativity and musicality. The short program is fine as is, although I would prefer to increase deductions to make it more "do or die".
 
In one recent season (last year? the year before?), during the slow-mo the distance, height, trajectory of jumps and throws were being shown diagrammed over the skaters. I found it annoying myself, but conceded it might be informative for new viewers. However, that idea seems to have been abandoned. And it didn't show all the other nuances of skating. Maybe there could be a series of little documentaries on turns, edges, spin positions, twizzle variations, etc, shown during the ice surfacing breaks?
if you dig, you can find quite a few videos on ISU channel that show different elements. But you have to dig heally deep. I came across them because I searched for videos showing particular elements to upgrade my own skating :) but most of casual viewers won't do it.

Some of the videos were made by Michael Huth, so it's delight to watch ;)
 
May God, bless Hanyu.

ISU needs to make the long program more "free" -- one less jump element, one less leveled spin, and delete the levelled footwork sequence. Strongly encourage creativity and musicality. The short program is fine as is, although I would prefer to increase deductions to make it more "do or die".
I think this take is funny because figure skating programs used to have variable amounts of spins. Tara Lipinski had 4 in her long program in 1998, for example. I think the problem lies more in all spins having to be leveled.
 
ISU needs to make the long program more "free" -- one less jump element, one less leveled spin, and delete the levelled footwork sequence. Strongly encourage creativity and musicality. The short program is fine as is, although I would prefer to increase deductions to make it more "do or die".
This was actually proposed at the 2024 ISU Congress. Not sure about the footwork sequence, but definitely about removing a jump element and replacing one of the leveled spins with a choreo spin.

It didn't pass to go into effect for this season because many skaters already had their programs choreographed by June when the Congress took place.

But it's highly likely to take effect beginning 2026-27.
 
This was actually quite common before IJS. Especially 1990s-early 2000s, post-figures and when jump content became much more important.
I guess I'm too young to remember but recently someone found a video of Masakazu Kagiyama from Albertville, yeah, lots of crossovers and choreo was mostly turns, but I put some blame on fact that is was a Stravinski program, so not much storytelling to be done. But on the other hand, skaters like Elvis Stojko had lots of choreo and storytelling, significantly less crossovers and different use of upper body. And again - skaters like Elvis medaled, skaters like Kagiyama older had good places, but no medals.
 
That GP Finland comparison is actually something I think about... IMO some GP organizers are showing signs that they never learned how to market the competition tickets, the figure skating competition, to local people or sports fans who may be interested in watching a competition of a new sport. It's possible that they are used to the competition being held and dedicated overseas fans buying tickets automatically, and therefore never really felt the need to work to get "normal" people to come and watch. I remember Finland organizers complaining about this multiple times- even starting from when they invited Rika Kihira and Mai Mihara (so 2022 GP?) they were already grumbling that those Japanese skaters don't have enough fans who want to pay expensive plane tickets and travel and then pay expensive tickets to watch them. I can think of some other organizers who are not used to this and are struggling.

And it's interesting because Finland /has/ an ice dance team that's been quite prominent in recent years, similar to Lithuania, and look at what Lithuania did with Europeans last year. And Europeans had no "big" stars!
100 % this. Marketing was very low outside their social media and not much even there either. Tickets prices were reasonable this time. Those who live near the venue liked the Sunday events. But we saw it was not good idea, because Sunday was less sold. Finland is a long country by figure and many people must be at work on Monday. So people who come from north need one extra day and I guess many think two events it not worth it. First I saw there will be events on Sunday I was disappointed but as prices were not bad I decided to go. I could come home at Sunday evening as there were trains to my town still after the competition, but would have been here too late so I booked an extra night at hotel and arranged free from job. I would not have done it, if the tickets weren't so cheap this time.

I already write to competition board that at lobby if the hotel I stayed was on the lobby an announcement board "what is happening in the town". There was announcements about football games etc. but nothing about FS. The receptionist asked what there is happening on the ice hall when I checked from her the best route to walk there, only 15 minutes walk. So she had no idea what was going on. If I did not follow thus forum and local fed's social media, I would have known nothing about the event. There was article about Janna in one media and one about Nella in another. But the event was just mentioned on one sentence, not in the title. The main problem is that media is not interested and local fed does not understand that social media is not enough to tell about events. They need help in marketing. When NHL hockey game was played in Tampere some weeks ago, media was full of it in advantage. Not just the game but what players did and said. I already write to competition's chat thread that one local and very used web-TV schedule had first put this "figure skating nationals" on their schedule, in Finnish. I gave feedback and then they had changed it worlds. I gave feedback again but nothing happened until just the day before the first event it was fixed to be the Grand Prix. I think that tells a lot. Today I got to my FB an article where the director of the fed complained that even skaters themselves did not come to watch. It was behind paywall but I could read a bit from the beginning. It was clear they were waiting more people.

Also what I noticed, though national TV, YLE, had rights to show Finlandia Trophy on their channel, but somebody else was responsible about the cameras at the arena. When YLE is present, it is very visible but this time I saw none of their trucks and people who made the camera work did not had YLE's clothes. I had two big events, one sport and one religious one near my home last summer. This is a smalla town. It was very visible that YLE was broadcasting both.

Some people say host spots should be removed. I would not go so far, because home skaters sell some tickets. But I think two would be enough, if there are not three eligible skaters who has the spots anyway, and the minimum scores could be a little higher. Finland had only Emmi and Viveca 2018 as the others were so much behind them in skills or were injured. In other disciplines there are no more to send, all the other age eligible in seniors national team men skated at JGP this season. There is now third ID pair in seniors, but not yet good enough to send to GP. I think Finland's fed demand to get A GP spot has been the same as it is to make it national team, 155 in women and 185 in men. - in pairs and ID they demand Euro's TES but it is a not problem as both ID pairs and only pairs pair has worlds TES already. But they accept also national results and unofficial ISU results. These are in any way the scores they demand to get a spot bigger competitions. Our only pair, I think, and ID pairs would have had two spots anyway.

What I think, because of the absence of audience, not just Finland but in small competitions, we will see a day when SP is removed and skaters have only FS. I don't say I wish it, but I guess this is the future. The qualification scores will be higher than today. The patterns were removed from ID, figures were removed from others, so removing things and make competitions shorter can be a solution. It is not a solution to make the FS only a sport for a small group of fans who are arrogant towards those who do not understand enough about the levels and difficulty. The sport needs people who just come watch and enjoy, buys tickets and off-ice stuff without big understanding of the scoring system or technique.
 
100 % this. Marketing was very low outside their social media and not much even there either. Tickets prices were reasonable this time. Those who live near the venue liked the Sunday events. But we saw it was not good idea, because Sunday was less sold. Finland is a long country by figure and many people must be at work on Monday. So people who come from north need one extra day and I guess many think two events it not worth it. First I saw there will be events on Sunday I was disappointed but as prices were not bad I decided to go. I could come home at Sunday evening as there were trains to my town still after the competition, but would have been here too late so I booked an extra night at hotel and arranged free from job. I would not have done it, if the tickets weren't so cheap this time.

I already write to competition board that at lobby if the hotel I stayed was on the lobby an announcement board "what is happening in the town". There was announcements about football games etc. but nothing about FS. The receptionist asked what there is happening on the ice hall when I checked from her the best route to walk there, only 15 minutes walk. So she had no idea what was going on. If I did not follow thus forum and local fed's social media, I would have known nothing about the event. There was article about Janna in one media and one about Nella in another. But the event was just mentioned on one sentence, not in the title. The main problem is that media is not interested and local fed does not understand that social media is not enough to tell about events. They need help in marketing. When NHL hockey game was played in Tampere some weeks ago, media was full of it in advantage. Not just the game but what players did and said. I already write to competition's chat thread that one local and very used web-TV schedule had first put this "figure skating nationals" on their schedule, in Finnish. I gave feedback and then they had changed it worlds. I gave feedback again but nothing happened until just the day before the first event it was fixed to be the Grand Prix. I think that tells a lot. Today I got to my FB an article where the director of the fed complained that even skaters themselves did not come to watch. It was behind paywall but I could read a bit from the beginning. It was clear they were waiting more people.

Also what I noticed, though national TV, YLE, had rights to show Finlandia Trophy on their channel, but somebody else was responsible about the cameras at the arena. When YLE is present, it is very visible but this time I saw none of their trucks and people who made the camera work did not had YLE's clothes. I had two big events, one sport and one religious one near my home last summer. This is a smalla town. It was very visible that YLE was broadcasting both.

Some people say host spots should be removed. I would not go so far, because home skaters sell some tickets. But I think two would be enough, if there are not three eligible skaters who has the spots anyway, and the minimum scores could be a little higher. Finland had only Emmi and Viveca 2018 as the others were so much behind them in skills or were injured. In other disciplines there are no more to send, all the other age eligible in seniors national team men skated at JGP this season. There is now third ID pair in seniors, but not yet good enough to send to GP. I think Finland's fed demand to get A GP spot has been the same as it is to make it national team, 155 in women and 185 in men. - in pairs and ID they demand Euro's TES but it is a not problem as both ID pairs and only pairs pair has worlds TES already. But they accept also national results and unofficial ISU results. These are in any way the scores they demand to get a spot bigger competitions. Our only pair, I think, and ID pairs would have had two spots anyway.

What I think, because of the absence of audience, not just Finland but in small competitions, we will see a day when SP is removed and skaters have only FS. I don't say I wish it, but I guess this is the future. The qualification scores will be higher than today. The patterns were removed from ID, figures were removed from others, so removing things and make competitions shorter can be a solution. It is not a solution to make the FS only a sport for a small group of fans who are arrogant towards those who do not understand enough about the levels and difficulty. The sport needs people who just come watch and enjoy, buys tickets and off-ice stuff without big understanding of the scoring system or technique.
I'm curious to know if there is more advance competition publicity and media coverage for synchro, given Finland's success in that discipline?
 
I'm curious to know if there is more advance competition publicity and media coverage for synchro, given Finland's success in that discipline?
Quite a little. When they medal or win there can be some small article but usually other sport take more coverage, like nordic skeeing nationals or national league hockey games. If any hockey game had so small audience as GP had on Sunday, the hosting teams start to think what to do because there was so few people. Last time synchro worlds was sold out in a couple of hours, but when I last time checked, there was still tickets on sale for the next 2025. I think it is other synchro skaters who go to watch it, because here is about 200 hundred teams at different levels. I think when they talk own members even did not come to watch GP, maybe it is mostly synchro members.
 
Creativity and musicality is achieved through the step sequence. It will never get "deleted."
In addition, the leveled step sequence is the element where actual skating ability can best be demonstrated, although there can be different rules to emphasize specific skating skills along with emphasizing creativity and musicality. E.g., see the differences between different step sequences and step sequence-like requirements in the rhythm dance and free dance.

I would not want to see the element that best measures skating skill deleted unless there were one or more other skating-skill-based element(s) added to replace it.

I could also write the sentence above replacing the words "skating skill" with "creativity and musicality."

Currently the choreographic sequence does encourage those, but with less emphasis on skating skill than the leveled sequence. And it seems that many skaters tend to use the choreo sequence for more of a rest break without getting creative at all.
 
It is not a solution to make the FS only a sport for a small group of fans who are arrogant towards those who do not understand enough about the levels and difficulty. The sport needs people who just come watch and enjoy, buys tickets and off-ice stuff without big understanding of the scoring system or technique.
Thinking about this as well. Even just efforts to make competitions more physically comfortable to watch go a long way, whether by adjusting the schedule or even making some innovations with the seating.

I wonder if GP Finland will be better served with how NHK Trophy scheduled their competition next time, just blitzing through all disciplines in Friday and Saturday (put Ice Dance at the end of course so Pirihara and TV can finish the whole event strong for everyone) finish late, and then nothing in Sunday. So if the ticket prices are reasonable they can even sell hotel rooms for that Saturday night and people can go back to their towns on Sunday.

I deleted my original comment but I still think about it. I don't think anything needs to be removed from skating (but removing 1 jumping pass in the FS and adding 1 more stsq would be nice... more skating) but I think efforts must be made to make normal people want to watch them. Especially with the economic situation now, there are other entertainment or sports that are more accessible that figure skating is competing with to get the attention from those normal people.

It always falls on skaters and skaters families and skating fans to sell, sell and sell those tickets. Even for overseas skating fans who are very dedicated, going to Finland is a once in a lifetime trip, because they are normal people. It's very expensive and there's just a lot more things to prioritize in life. It's not the skaters' fault that the organizers can't reach out to normal people to appeal to them to watch.
 
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In addition, the leveled step sequence is the element where actual skating ability can best be demonstrated, although there can be different rules to emphasize specific skating skills along with emphasizing creativity and musicality.
In general, I am skeptical of going the route of two separate step sequences, one to show technical mastery by hitting all the bullet points and then a "choeorgraph" sequence for aesthetic and musical values. What we really admire is a skater who can do both at th same time.

Similarly for the proposal that pops up from time to time that we should have a separate technical progam featuring as many quads as possible and then an artistic program with only a few jumps allowed. Neither really satisfies our hopes and expetations.
 
I am a bit conflicted. I think step sequences are the best thing in programs and I miss the second one greatly. If the ISU doesn't want to bring it back, then they should add a couple choices of choreo elements like in the Free dance... A characteristic step sequence, a sliding move, an aerial move, on top of the chor sequence. I don't like the chor sequence because it forces skaters to bunch up their moves... it would be better, in my opinion to have them happen where it makes most sense...
Where I am conflicted is that any element with a considerable BV/ or potential for high GOEs versus leveled elements, is quite subjectively treated by the judges...like in ice dance. I wouldn't want a world podium contender get higher GOE on his chor aerial move than someone who can do the ultimate backflip for instance. I think creativity should be encouraged... An chor aerial move could be an open axel too... why not ?
I just want more than crossovers jump X 4, then break then crossovers jumps X 3
 
Personally, I think normal people are into jumps and large, emotional moves with upper body, not skating in circles while fidgeting with the wrists once in a while. Most people don't even see what the legs do or know the difference between cross-overs and other steps. One can pick up on skating being smoother or strokes matching the music more or less, balletic extensions, dancer's posture but that's it. Normal people are not musical and don't know how to dance. They enjoy close competition that showcases obvious skill when their guy is winning. What leets on this forum call good skating puts normal people to sleep.
 
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Personally, I think normal people are into jumps and large, emotional moves with upper body, not skating in circles while fidgeting with the wrists once in a while. Most people don't even see what the legs do or know the difference between cross-overs and other steps. One can pick up on skating being smoother or strokes matching the music more or less, balletic extensions, dancer's posture but that's it. Normal people are not musical and don't know how to dance. They enjoy close competition that showcases obvious skill when their guy is winning. What leets on this forum call good skating puts normal people to sleep.
mmm.... i am not sure i can agree with anything you say, except that it's true... I am not normal ;)
 
Personally, I think normal people are into jumps....
Oh, I don't think that this characterization of what "normal people" want is acturate at all. Do you think that normies can't enjoy and appreciate the hanyu step sequence posted above by Arrigato (post 250))?

True, inexpert fans cannot name and identify all the steps and turns -- no more can they tell the difference between a flip and a toe-loop, or between a quad and a triple.

When we ask, why has figure skating as a spectator sport tanked in almost every country in the world, I don;t think the answer is, "Not enough quads."
 
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Oh, I don't think that this characterization of what "normal people" want is acturate at all. Do you think that normies can't enjoy and appreciate the hanyu step sequence posted above by Arrigato (post 250))?

True, ttypical fans cannot name and identify all the steps and turns -- no more can they tell the difference between a flip and a toe-loop, or between a quad and a triple.

When we ask, why has figure skating as a spectator sport tanked in almost every country in the world, I don;t think the answer is, "Not enough quads."
Big jumps are engaging even if you don't know if it is 4T or 4Lz. I didn’t say just quads. I said Big Everything AND strong, exciting competition. Steps don't really do that. Those pretend leets continously post, omg, why level 2 (or 3) for this beautiful step sequence? because they can't see errors in steps, types of steps, turns or notice lack of complexity. The most engaging steps back in Plushenko era wouldn't pass the levels either.

Hanyu became a star in the Golden Age of Quads when the competition was fierce and intensifying, so his super-glide made him die-hard fans--and simultaneously dead-set them against clean, equisite programs for life too. They, however, are not normal people, lol. They are die-hard Hanyu fans who idolize the glide because they idolized Hanyu. I wish it was Uno who achieved that status because he delivered far more of what a normal person could enjoy than Hanyu imo. And he delivered it without tarnishing other skaters and creating a mythology that they are no good and just jump when they did all the complex steps/turns and more creatively than he did.

Hanyu or no Hanyu, there is simply not enough of anything atm to support strong competion across 3 out of 4 disciplines in 6 events.

Eliminating combination jumping passes is simply another acknowledgement of shrinking skill pool and inability to sustain the sport into the future.
 
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