Is Grand Prix series ready to downsize to 5 events?

[Magill]

What everyone is sensitive to is to rhythm. And, yes, we would move to rhythm, but far fewer are musical.

But have you read the research survey paper I have linked above? Musicality for research is defined as responding BOTH to rhythm AND melody, and dance is defined as combining BOTH with responding intentional movement. It is researched by brain neuroimaging and not by anyone’s subjective judgment, and is found to be pretty universal among humans. That's science, not an opinion.

 

[lariko]

But have you read the research survey paper I have linked above? Musicality for research is defined as responding BOTH to rhythm AND melody, and dance is defined as combining BOTH with responding intentional movement. It is researched by brain neuroimaging and not by anyone’s subjective judgment, and is found to be pretty universal among humans. That's science, not an opinion.

That was what I was told when I was trained as an aerobics instructor.

 

[Magill]

That was what I was told when I was trained as an aerobics instructor.

Well, with all due respect and nothing personal, but between an aerobic instructor and neuroscience research, I would rather trust neuroscience.

 

[lariko]

Well, with all due respect and nothing personal, but between an aerobic instructor and neuroscience research, I would rather trust neuroscience.

Actually, the article you quote draws quite a bit of distinctions between musicians and profane (their wording not mine) in the way they process music. So, the article shows that you require training to understand/process it the way a pro does. It speaks to the fact that since most people don't receive any musical training, they don't experience the same stuff as the musicians, basically judging music with a different brain hemisphere. So, impacted somehow, sure. Able to judge with any degree of consistency or accuracy or objectivity? No way.

The quote:

In nonmusician listeners, music activates brain regions that are involved in movement, planning, atten-tion, and memory differently from the processing of other sounds such as noise and an engine. In musicians, either performing or listening to music, the areas activated are more numerous and larger.

When a musician listens to a piece of music, the brain areas that would be needed to perform that piece of music become active.The areas required for sound processing and produc-tion, both for language and music, are asymmetrical, placed in various cortical centers in the left hemisphere (at least in 85% of humans). Nevertheless, the right or left hemispheric dominance is different depending on whether the listener is a musician or a profane. In the former, listen-ing is performed analytically and therefore with increased activation of the left brain; on the contrary, in nonmusicians listening happens holistically and impacts mainly the right hemisphere.

There is also a quoted by google AI small-sample study that shows that 80-90% of 80 people in 2 countires can carry a very familiar tune, but I feel it is a fudged result, and if they tried an unfamiliar or more complex melody or didn't made people to slow down, they would find their results completely different in general population.

As much as a response to music and rhythm is present in babies, it hugely depends on persistent and early training and very few are actually any good at music and dancing.

I mean, how many people can even call without peeking at the explanation which modern pop song borrows a tune from a classic tune in this video after just listening to the classical piece?

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtu.be

 

[Magill]

Actually, the article you quote draws quite a bit of distinctions between musicians and profane in the way they process music. So, the article shows that you require training to understand/process it the way a pro does. It speaks to the fact that since most people don't receive any musical training, they don't experience the same stuff as the musicians, basically judging music with a different brain hemisphere.

The quote:

In nonmusician listeners, music activates brain regions that are involved in movement, planning, atten-tion, and memory differently from the processing of other sounds such as noise and an engine. In musicians, either performing or listening to music, the areas activated are more numerous and larger.

When a musician listens to a piece of music, the brain areas that would be needed to perform that piece of music become active.The areas required for sound processing and produc-tion, both for language and music, are asymmetrical, placed in various cortical centers in the left hemisphere (at least in 85% of humans). Nevertheless, the right or left hemispheric dominance is different depending on whether the listener is a musician or a profane. In the former, listen-ing is performed analytically and therefore with increased activation of the left brain; on the contrary, in nonmusicians listening happens holistically and impacts mainly the right hemisphere.

Yes, they do. What they say is that musicians learn to analyse music like maths, as the result of their training, while non-musicians process it like art, with the "emotional" hemisphere. But this is not about musicality, it is about the purpose of the exercise. Musicality is not an ability to read or "recognize" notes, that's a trained skill, and musicians need it for their craft while most of us don't. This shift between hemispheres occurs as a result of training, and, again, in everyone who is learning to play an instrument, regardless of their individual talent or the lack thereof. It is not something future musicians are born with as opposed to everyone else. It is not a sign of an individual's higher musicality, it is a technical consequence of their training. At least that's what comes from this research.

 

[Arigato]

Off topic, but I admit I found the description of what constitutes a "normal" person proposed by the OP quite strikingly unappealing. This part in particular made me curious: "Normal people are not musical and don't know how to dance", so I've done a little research and found it completely untrue. Here's what researchers say:

"Recent findings suggest that music automatically activates regions of the brain involved in starting the movements necessary to sing and dance. If an individual stands completely still while listening to music, functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) scanning will show that his motor cortex is activated, although the individual is not in motion. Thus, from an evolutionary point of view, it is possible that dance and music appeared together. In fact, they coexist in most human cultures and possibly are innate. According to a recent study carried on about 120 infants (aged 5–24 months), babies spontaneously ‘danced’ in response to all different types of music"....

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/312588934_Biological_bases_of_human_musicality

and many others...
Personally I do really believe that music and dance is more universal than any language in communicating both beauty and human emotions, most simple and most complex, and we are all equipped to "get" it. Which would also explain why those "most musical" skaters easily find a way to the audience's hearts. Quite happy to find the current research agrees....

I eat, sleep, and breathe music. I sing and keep physically fit by dancing since my choreo is so demanding. On a side note, what do you see in this video? Don't just look at what one person is doing, look at what everyone is not doing. Then look back at the one person. In a sport where music is an integral part, I found this video shocking.

 

[Arigato]

And if anyone thinks FS isn't athletic besides jumps - go to the icerink, try to do a swizzle - those who can do a decent swizzle and maybe crossovers and basic turns won't say anything that stupid.

Adam SHF brought that up in an interview about a year ago or so. His step sequences physically require far more from him than a mere quad. Also, when Yagudin was skating, a commenter pointed out that his step sequences were as hard on his hip as any jump.

 

[Magill]

I eat, sleep, and breathe music. I sing and keep physically fit by dancing since my choreo is so demanding. On a side note, what do you see in this video? Don't just look at what one person is doing, look at what everyone is not doing. Then look back at the one person. In a sport where music is an integral part, I found this video shocking.

This video reminds me of this quote from the interview Yuzu gave to Corriere della Sera, Italy's leading newspaper, published in their weekend supplement "Setta" (Seven) just yesterday. He looks here like he has retreated to his inner child world and allowed himself being carried away by the music playing in the background while everyone else stayed in the serious adult mode.
Actually, as you mentioned it, it made me realize I saw similar scenes with Yuzu many times in various little videos....

 

[Demandred]

There is already way too few top level competitions in this sport, reducing them even more is a bad idea IMO. I can't think of another reasonably popular sport with such a small number of such events.

Besides, if you find the current level of competition too low to waste your time watching, reducing the number of events won't help much if at all. And you can always only watch the Top 6 or whatever number you find "good enough to watch" in every GPF event if you want to.

 

[Karoltyna]

There is already way too few top level competitions in this sport, reducing them even more is a bad idea IMO. I can't think of another reasonably popular sport with such a small number of such events.

Besides, if you find the current level of competition too low to waste your time watching, reducing the number of events won't help much if at all. And you can always only watch the Top 6 or whatever number you find "good enough to watch" in every GPF event if you want to.

Another thing is that if there isn't enough competitions like GP or similar level, general level of the discipline will drop and the skaters will go away to pursue different careers.

 

[museksk8r]

I hope not. Why would we want less skating? I know that we sometimes bemoan the lackluster quality of some of these competitions, but one of the major treats of these international events is being introduced to skaters who have that something special that catches your eye and being able to see that skater develop over the years and potentially become one of your favorites.

 

[sadya]

There was a time before Grand Prix events existed. Some of the Grand Prix events existed as separate events, more like B or C events. Some skaters used them to show their programs and get some 'miles' with these programs. You only had Europeans and Worlds as big and important skating events. Four Continents was created just a little over 2 decades ago, so before that, only 2 big competitions and once in 4 years the Olympics. Nationals weren't big exciting competitions for every country either. (And when Four Continents was new, many people didn't take it that seriously. The US for example didn't send their biggest stars.)

I'm glad we have that and the Grand Prix events now and the current number of events is just fine. It gives skaters more chances to show their talents and tweak their programs (or costumes), it gives the public more chances of watching great skating.

 

[Diana Delafield]

There was a time before Grand Prix events existed. Some of the Grand Prix events existed as separate events, more like B of C events. Some skaters used them to show their programs and get some 'miles' with these programs. You only had Europeans and Worlds as big and important skating events. Four Continents was created just a little over 2 decades ago, so before that, only 2 big competitions and once in 4 years the Olympics. Nationals weren't big exciting competitions for every country either. (And when Four Continents was new, many people didn't take it that seriously. The US for example didn't send their biggest stars.)

I'm glad we have that and the Grand Prix events now and the current number of events is just fine. It gives skaters more chances to show their talents and tweak their programs (or costumes), it gives the public more chances of watching great skating.

Before Four Continents there was the North American championships, which was supposed to be the equivalent of Europeans. (There wasn't enough skating, beyond Canada and the USA, to have a competition involving any other countries outside Europe.) However, it was never taken as seriously as Europeans. Each country automatically sent their three medallists in each of the four disciplines, so there were never more than six entries in each, and by a truly amazing coincidence, the North American gold medals were always evenly divided, two to Canadians and two to Americans. So it was just a sort of medal-awarding gala, giving a chance for the top NA skaters to get more mileage on their programs before Worlds.

 

[NanaPat]

Before Four Continents there was the North American championships, which was supposed to be the equivalent of Europeans. (There wasn't enough skating, beyond Canada and the USA, to have a competition involving any other countries outside Europe.) However, it was never taken as seriously as Europeans. Each country automatically sent their three medallists in each of the four disciplines, so there were never more than six entries in each, and by a truly amazing coincidence, the North American gold medals were always evenly divided, two to Canadians and two to Americans. So it was just a sort of medal-awarding gala, giving a chance for the top NA skaters to get more mileage on their programs before Worlds.

I was curious about this, so I looked on Wikipedia. It took a bit of tallying with the use of my browser's search function, since the medalists are listed by year within discipline. In the last 7 competitions (1959-1967), the gold medals were NOT evenly divided, with Canada in the lead in 1959-1963 and the US in 1965-1971. I had to go back to 1957 to find a competition where the gold medals were evenly divided.

I then added the 5 preceding competition, to include all those that had the four current disciplines. In those 13 competitions, there were only 2 where the gold medals were evently divided (1947 and 1957). There were 3 "sweeps" (US 1949 and 1951, Canada 1963) . In 8 competitions, the gold medals were split 3/1, with the US prevailing 6 times and Canada twice. So overall, advantage USA, but not overwhelming so.

 

[Ruthypegs]

I think one of the main reasons why figure skating is a comparatively niche sport (speaking about the UK at least) is the almost complete lack of media coverage.

Look what happened in the UK when the media started to take an interest in women's football, which up until a couple of years ago got next to zero media coverage. The media started covering the games and the viewing figures grew, then the media showed more interest, and the audiences grew again, and so on, until by the Euro finals there were big crowds/audiences.

Also, on a side topic, the lack of marketing/promotion for the Sheffield Grand Prix in 2022, combined with the really expensive tickets, was a wasted opportunity to grow the sport. I hope that things are markedly different when we host the Europeans in 2026, especially with the British ice dance team in such a good position to win Gold.

 

[Diana Delafield]

I was curious about this, so I looked on Wikipedia. It took a bit of tallying with the use of my browser's search function, since the medalists are listed by year within discipline. In the last 7 competitions (1959-1967), the gold medals were NOT evenly divided, with Canada in the lead in 1959-1963 and the US in 1965-1971. I had to go back to 1957 to find a competition where the gold medals were evenly divided.

I then added the 5 preceding competition, to include all those that had the four current disciplines. In those 13 competitions, there were only 2 where the gold medals were evently divided (1947 and 1957). There were 3 "sweeps" (US 1949 and 1951, Canada 1963) . In 8 competitions, the gold medals were split 3/1, with the US prevailing 6 times and Canada twice. So overall, advantage USA, but not overwhelming so.

Interesting! I was going by memory from my childhood/teens and that was what I heard the adults saying -- probably in the years when the Americans were taking more of the golds . Like fans today when the results don't go the way they want and they blame it on favouritism or collusion by the judges, I guess.

I admire your statistical research . I didn't realize the North American event had been going even before I was born, let alone started skating! I knew it was invented after Barbara Ann Scott and Dick Button won Europeans after the war, and it was decided to only allow skaters from Europe to compete there. I didn't know it began that early, though.

 

[Mathman]

About the North Americn Championship, I always heard that the grumbling was that U.S. skaters were generally favored by the judges when the competition was held in the U.S., and the Canadians were favored every seond year when the event came back to Canada. I don't knlw whether the statistics actually bear that out, but -- can you believe it??? -- there was a certain amount of cantankerous wuz-robbing.

Finally Canada got mad and came up with the Skate Canada event as an alternative (or maybe they figured they could make more money running their own show), and then U.S.A. forllowed suit with Skate America a few years later.

 

[Diana Delafield]

About the North Americn Championship, I always heard that the grumbling was that U.S. skaters were generally favored by the judges when the competition was held in the U.S., and the Canadians were favored every seond year when the event came back to Canada. I don't knlw whether the statistics actually bear that out, but -- can you believe it??? -- there was a certain amount of cantankerous wuz-robbing.

Finally Canada got mad and came up with the State Canada event as an alternative (or maybe they figured they could make more money running their own show), and then U.S.A. forllowed suit with Skate America a few years later.

That's probably what I'm actually remembering, the imagined location bias. It was a long time ago, and more than a few marbles have been lost along the way

 

[Mathman]

Look what happened in the UK when the media started to take an interest in women's football, which up until a couple of years ago got next to zero media coverage...

What an interesting perspective! Back in the day, figure skating was the only sport that was regarded as a "woman's sport" In the U.S., women skaters ruled the roost, making millions for the very top stars like Peggy Fleming, Janet Lynn and Dorothy Hamill.

Then in 1972 the U.S. government decreed that school and college athletic programs had to include opportunities for girls as well as for boys. "Association Football" (abbreviated Soccer ) was the big winner because it didn't require much in the way of constructing venues and buying equipment -- just find an unused field somewhere and put up a net. The tem "soccer mom" came into the vocabu;lary, meaning a mother who voulnteered to drive her daughter and the daughyter's friends to their matches in the family minivan.

To this day, the American sports public has pretty much zero interest in this sport for men, but has become enthusiastic over women's leagues and the women;s World Cup competitions. In the late 1990s the two best-known female athletes in the U.S. were Michelle Kwan and two-time Olympic Cahmpion footballer Mia Hamm.

Women's tennis also jumped into relative par with men's (thanks in part to decades-long activism by Billie Jean King over the equal pay issue). Now women's professional basketball seems about to take flight.

 

[NanaPat]

About the North Americn Championship, I always heard that the grumbling was that U.S. skaters were generally favored by the judges when the competition was held in the U.S., and the Canadians were favored every seond year when the event came back to Canada. I don't knlw whether the statistics actually bear that out, but -- can you believe it??? -- there was a certain amount of cantankerous wuz-robbing.

There is no evidence for "home-site" favoritism in the gold medals, though it may have affected the overall medals. In fact that makes sense: the gold medalists are known on the world stage; it's easier to manipulate the placings of the skaters who aren't so well established.

The gold medals advantage ran in streaks:

1947 : even
1949-1955 : 4 competition streak with advantage USA
1957 : even
1959-1963: 3 competition streak with advanage Canada
1965-1967: 4 competition streak with advantage USA

Maybe Canada saw the writing on the wall and thought they'd never prevail again!